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imtools
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 34 Ridge, NY
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2003-11-26          69660

I have been under the assumption that a FEL is not really meant for digging (penetrating un-tilled ground). Is this so? Unlike a skid steer where the arms rest against the frame of the machine when they are in the lowest position, a FEL has no support like that and the typical arm is "bent" over the front wheel which is a weak point when trying to push forward.

After loosing out on a Kubota loader attachment last nite on eBay, I am determined to design and build my own loader (I am a mechancial engineer with an extensive home machine shop so there's not much problem here other than time). I don't see why I couldn't have the bucket rest against the frame when down. I am also thinking of putting a quick attach plate on it so it can take skid steer attachments. Just think of it-all the 3-point attachments for the back AND all the skid steer attachments for the front---my back yard will be covered by attachments.


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-26          69667

Your screen name does forecast your inclinations, or maybe imtoys would work too. In either case the idea sounds pretty good.

My tractor is fairly traditional and it doesn't have a frame per se. There are side rails on the engine but the structure really is the cases. My loader frame does a decent job of distributing load but I suppose there could be better designs and it would be interesting to think about.

Here are some random thoughts. One of the problems on a tractor is that long arms are needed so the bucket clears the front tires and hood and also so the bucket can be lifted fairly high without it coming back over the tractor hood. Can't dump a load if the bucket's over the hood. Anything that the bucket rested against when down likely would have to be a structure that extended distance forward. That might interfere with some loading dock sorts of operations. You sort of have to kiss the dock with the rad guard to get the bucket high enough to clear and still be over the dock or flat-bed. There may be some drawbacks but anything that stabilized the bucket against off-center shocks (there are buried rocks and they get hit) would be good. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-26          69668

Guess I never commented on the main question--typical I think. I never though of loaders as very good for digging although they are used. Tractors were originally called 'mechanical mules' and that sort of sums up their design for me. As a mule replacement, they were designed to deliver draft and that's still what they do best. Anytime I can get work done with draft that's what I choose.

Somewhere along the line marketers seems to get the idea that a tractor could be turned into a general mobile power source and one machine could be everything. Even with modern design any use other than draft can still be thought of as compromising basic design. Draft is still what they deliver best and features such as loaders to some extent can be thought of as 'cludged together add ons' that detract from basic function. On the other hand, I wouldn't have a tractor if all I could do with it is pull things so the marketers were successful in my case. ....

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imtools
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 34 Ridge, NY
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2003-11-27          69759

TomG
Your points are well taken

My intent was to have nothing stick forward of the foremost point of the tractor itself. I could either put the 'brace to the frame' on the loader or another thought I had was to put another hydraulic cylinder on the tractor that could used as an adjustable stop, allowing me to fine tune the digging depth.

As far as reaching to dump at higher levels than ground, it is largely a function of how high the rear pivot point for the arms are.

I also intend to make it a self leveling bucket and reverse the linkage so that tilting the bucket back uses the push action of the cylinder rather than the pull action.

Finally, while I'm going to all this trouble, I'm going to design a clamshell bucket.

Don't hold your breath for pictures-it'll take a couple of months. ....

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imtools
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 34 Ridge, NY
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2003-11-27          69760

P.S.
IMTOOLS is my eBay ID. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2003-11-27          69780

IM, I like the idea of the push action of the ram on the bucket curl. There is alot more surface area on the end of the piston for greater force. In another thread there is discussion of using the bucket curl to rip out stumps after you push the tree over. I've been doing quite a bit of this lately and it's been my experience that this operation is the one that could use plenty of force. ....

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osheen
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 12 sw washington
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2003-11-28          69816

I'm going to build a clam shell bucket too. Or rig up some sort of thumb on the bucket actuated by another cylinder. Similar to the thumb on an excavator bucket. I want to be able to grab brush and stumps. ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2003-11-28          69821

Your right, the Front End Loader it not meant to dig, it's
for Loading. Back hoes are for digging.
You should spend some time in the seat,since you are new to tractors,before you redesign it. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-28          69830

I recall seeing pictures of old style loaders on old farm tractors. Some of the designs seem a little bizarre with frames built over the hood. I think the loader arm pivots were quite high and maybe even above the hood. I imagine these were trip loaders. I don't know how down-pressure would affect the design or if stability would be a problem. They probably do have shorter arms than lower pivots. A thought I had is that if the pivots were high it probably would bring the bucket closer to the tractor at ground level but then it wouldn't go much below ground level. I have seen some loaders on big tractors that seem to be intended for excavating and the buckets go quite a ways below the surface.

I'm for playing around with design possibilities but the idea is what is reasonable to do with the basic tractor structure. I sure agree that loaders aren't the best for grading let alone excavating. From my perspective (which isn't engineering so I can't actually design things), backhoes too are 'cludged together' add-ons that just don't compare to the structures of dedicated hoes but some types of work ets done just fine. If I understand why the basic cast-case tractor design is so persistent, it's that more strength can be gotten from less weight. That creates less soil compacting problems for ag work and still allows ballast to be piled on when more traction is needed. However, the cast structure is less tolerant to 'jack-knifing' stress than other designs.
....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-11-28          69833

First line of caution is to try and keep some forward visibility. All to often the strongest design lends to other complications of the operation. ....

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cj2002b
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 27 Southwick, MA
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2003-11-28          69839

You need to keep in mind that "digging" forces on a machine are different than "loading" forces. Loaders typically use power transferred through the engine-transmission-driveline to penetrate material piles. The hydraulics are mainly used to lift the material (even though bucket curling action can break-out material if the bucket can penetrate it).

Backhoes, excavators, etc. transfer their power through the hydraulic system. Their is no chance for tire slippage, transmission slippage, etc. Material breakout is almost always back towards the machine (except in large "steam shovel" type machines).

Whether or not you can make this work will depend largely on the type and location of material you plan to excavate. When we have an exposed hillside with loose, sandy material we use a loader to dig it. We've even been able to use a loader to dig holes into the ground in loose material. Typically, we dig down at a very shallow angle until we reach the base level. Then we'll open up a level working area.

Anyway,I have lots of "dirt" experience, and for me it has always worked like this. Break it up, (or dig it out) with an excavator (backhoe). Load it with a loader.

Good Luck. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-29          69918

Those are the design problems all right. I'd be interested to see what an engineer comes up with for maybe improving a conventional tractor's limited capabilities though. If I had the background I might find it a decent hobby. Nothing is ever going to allow a tractor to compete with even a small skid steer though, although somebody on another board did say he'd excavated his basement with a compact and loader though. Lots of wear and tear on it I imagine.

One reason why tractor loader bucket cylinders seem backwards (the strong/slow side on the dump) is that if they were reversed then the cylinder rather than shafts would move. I have seen them that way on heavy equipment though and also in the middle but it might have been dozer blades rather than loaders.

....

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drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2003-11-29          69922

What defines a CUT is it's versatility and ability to perform many task with many differant attachments. Many times other machines less versatile can perform a specific task better but, are limited from other uses. For example I use chain on bucket forks, for the several times a month I use them they work great. If I had to use them to load and unload trucks all day they would not be so great.Obviously a skid steer or forklift would be better. As far as digging goes, you can dig with a FEL but I found technique and a tooth bar make a big differance. I had to burry some large boulders so I tried to dig a hole after about an hour I had dug about 18" deep. I called my brother who does this stuff for a living, he came over with a tooth bar and in about the same amount of time had a hole big enough to burry a car in. ....

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horse_guy
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5 SW Wisconsin
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2004-02-26          78049

I have a 7308 New Holland and in the owners manual it shows it being used to dig and it says you should only take about a 4" cut when digging. You can lower the front and skim a layer of dirt until your bucket is full, it works real well. If you have tried to load gravel that has been dumped on grass you know how easy it is to gouge into the ground and cant tell until you back up and see the sod missing. My new loader has a bucket indicator rod and that eliminates the gouging problem. Yes you can use your FEL for digging. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-28          78206

IM, pay attention to the moment reaction in the tractor frame. Sounds like your design could put a decent uplift reaction at the tower mount location. The moment between the tower mount and the front axle needs to be considered. Make sure your mount design distributes these reactions into the tractor frame properly. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-29          78242

Beagle: We haven't heard about IM's project in awhile but it sounds like you made an engineer to engineer comment. Keep it up and maybe some will rub off on me. I wish I could think in those terms. Since I can't, my only alternative is to guess and end up over-designing things.

Horse Guy: It's probably worth saying that not everybody has your options for digging--it's good that you do. The frame on my loader barely goes below ground level with a flat bucket. Since I don't have much of a digging option, I got the hang of doing shallow excavations with a box scraper. There's really no right or wrong here, a lot of what works is just how a person starts out and what they get the hang of.

I also never got the hang of taking dirt or gravel off lawns without gouges. Well, our lawns are are delicate enough so that big chunks will tear just from pushing dirt off of it and without the blade ever touching the ground. Besides, even with a level indicator the blade will dig in if the rear wheels go over a bump. At best I still end up with a bunch of hand raking to get enough dirt up so I don't kill the grass.

What I do for excavations and trenching is to dump onto vapour barrier. I can then push the top back into the hole. Eventually the pile gets low enough that the remaining dirt slides into the hole along with the plastic. Murf has done much the same but pulled the far ends of tarp with rope back across the hole so the tarp ends up on top. Something like that might be useful for you as well. ....

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CraigC
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 83 Hebron, IN
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2004-03-03          78687

One way to get a loader to dig is a spade bucket (pointed cutting edge) with teeth. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2004-03-04          78823

to get the bucket to break ground is to get a bolt on tooth bar they sell for around $300 to $500 depending on length and duty rating and when u start your dig put your loader in float and curl your bucket down so all four wheels are planted if you only ave 2wheel drive invest in a 3pt back hoe ....

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