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Log Skidding Cat Chokers

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-08          70529

Not sure if these count as tractor impliments but I could not figure where else to post this. Anyhow, for those of you who plan on or are skidding logs and using a chain; you may want to try one of these. They work great and are much cheaper than a chain.


Link:   click here

 
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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-12-08          70531

Have you used one of these before? I was wondering how strong they were and if they could be used to pull out smaller trees as well as bushes or hedges. It does look very handy and at a real nice price. Thanks for the link. ....

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Murf
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2003-12-08          70539

There can be big problems with skidding logs with a CUT.

Unless the skidding is done when the ground is frozen and there is a little snow on the ground the log ends up covered in dirt, this is REALLY hard on saw blades. It also means the CUT has to work a lot harder than necessary unless there is some snow to act as a 'lubricant' to make the log slide easier.

On the other hand snow usually makes for bad traction conditions for the CUT, add to this the fact that you are trying to drag rather than carry the load (carrying it gives you the beneift of extra weight, which equates to extra traction).

Skidding is best Left to the BIG machines.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70540

kubotaguy, These cables are pretty strong. I have used them to skid large oak tree weighing several tons but not with my tractor. LOL! We were using a dozer to pull them. I doubt you could break them with a CUT. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70542

Murf,

Any way you cut it, the log is going to get some dirt on it when you skid it. Not many if ANY CUT FEL's capable to picking up most green logs and the width and balance issues makes it impractical if not dangerous to do so. If you want to spend the money for an I-match type hitch and mount log skidding tongs on it, that minimizes the amount of dirt and dragging. As long as some common sense is applied and the log is cut to a reasonable size for the CUT to skid, I don't see this as placing an undue strain on the tractor as I am sure pulling a plow places FAR more strain on it.

My reason for skidding the log is to pull it out far enough into an area where it is safer and free of obstacles to cut up and carry away in the FEL. I have a small machine so that is what I am using. A 648-GIII log skidder would be outrageously expensive to rent or buy and impractical. A CUT can do this work just fine; just have to take smaller bites. ....

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kubotaguy
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2003-12-08          70544

I wasn't planning on using the setup to put any logging companies out of business, just an inexpensive way to move some trees in the yard. I still have some down from Isabel. A chain takes long to hook up and then slips and is pretty heavy to deal with. I think that setup is just what I am looking for. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70545

kubotaguy, LOL!!!! I don't I will make much of a dent in putting any logging companies out of business either. They are handy and when you are done with them; you coil them up like a rope and hang them out of the way. ....

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Murf
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2003-12-08          70546

My point was not that you can't do it Chief, it was that there are probably a few BETTER ways to do it, thats all.

Yes plows are 'labour intensive' to a CUT, most of them also have 'break-away' or 'trip' features that give away when you hit an immoveable object, like a rock or a big root. If a log on the back of a CUT snagged on something substantial it would stop the machine FAST.

You are forgetting that when a commercial skidder pulls a log it is done with the lead end of the log a) up in the air clear of obstacles, and b) with a BIG steel butt plate protector between the log and the machine. I f you were pulling a log downhill you would get a he$% of a thump at the bottom if you stopped faster than it did. If it gave you a good nudge halfway down the hill it might be enough to cause unstability of the CUT (read thrill ride here).

It is far more practical to cut the log into bite size pieces and carry them out in a bucket, forks or a 3pth mounted log grapple.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70548

I pretty much have a handle on the understanding of the dynamics and I pretty well thought I said about as much as you are saying in the post above. I am not running a commercial logging operation. Just using this to pull some reasonable size logs to where I can cut them up and haul them away without spending a ton of money. ....

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Murf
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2003-12-08          70550

Chief, I know you have handled equipment far more dangerous than a CUT, I was trying to point out that for all and sundry it may be the best, safest, cheapest or easiest way to do it, that's all.

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-12-08          70551

Chief, These are similar to those used on big skidders except there would be multiple chokers on the end of the main drag cable. I've been using a chain with a slip hook on one end and it works ok but this would work much better. Plus it's lighter and are easier to detach from the log.

We've got about six inches of snow in northern Wisconsin. Yesterday pulling out one relatively big tree I stalled the Kubota but never spun a tire. Plenty of traction without chains.
Dave ....

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Art White
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2003-12-08          70598

Murf, were delivering a 4330 gst and a fransgaurd 4000 winch within the next day or two. These fellows make there living beause of the small tractor and not tearing up the woods. They normally do what is called a slective harvest so the woods regenerates itself quicker. ....

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Hal DeWitt
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2004-01-03          72977

I have been absent fron this site for a time and am reading with interest this thread on logging. I have a B7500DT that I use a lot to log on 100 acres of hardwood lot. I have a Norse 290 winch and use chain chockers, not cable chockers. I have little problem skidding tree length or sections. The biggest problem I find is keeping the front end down and the fairly low lift force of the 3ph. The raeson for the small tarctor is simple. I want to be able to improve the lot not destroy it with heavy machinery. I see far too much forest destruction here in New Brunswick and will leave my own ground better than I received it. Frozen ground and a little snow are great assets for skidding but not necessary. Any good wood mill has a wash pond and dirt comes right off before the wood hits the steel in the mill. The 7500 is small but ceratinly futs the bill for me. Murf's grapple hitch looks good and I see most newer commercial tree harvesters here use grapples rather than winches. However hydraulics and weight are factors when using soemthing like my tractor. For those of you who read my previous mesages and recognize NB as home of the Atlantic Salmon the runs of MSW salmon were very good this year. Tight lines and good skidding. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-01-04          73015

I recall hearing about chain that doesn't tangle and probably slips easier. It has square links I believe. Don't know if that would be an advantage for a chain choker, but I guess if there isn't a problem then it doesn't have to be fixed. My problem is with tangling chain and just that might be enough for me to look for something other than my transport chain. Seems like I'm always just ready to hitch something up and then find myself unknotting the chain.

I use old skidder tails for getting around public land a lot but they sure do make a mess. The problem is they usually aren't built like proper roads and the slopes turn into new drainage routes and erode a lot. Small tractors are good and horses are even better--there's still a team around here. ....

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blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-01-04          73022

I have a cable choker similar to the one shown and it works GREAT. The one I use has a few links of 3/8" chain instead of the eye. Easy to push under the log(s). I find it hard to push chain and there never seems to be room to get my hand underneath. (Which isn't such a good idea, given the unpredictable stability of logs)

A rough formula for wire rope safe working load(SWL) in tons
is:
SWL = (diameter in inches) * (diameter in inches) * 8
so 1/2 wire would have a SWL of 2 tons (2 = 1/2 * 1/2 * 8)
Take 75% the SWL of the rope as actual SWL because of the
choker hitch, so it is reasonable to use them on some
good-sized timber. Actual breaking strength is much
greater, of course, but never exceed the SWL!
Some good info at link below.

Safe Skidding to all. ....


Link:   Link to SWL info

 
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Chief
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2004-01-04          73035

Blizzard, the link did not work for me but that is some good working info. to have that you posted. Can you try and see if you can get the link to work? ....

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blizzard
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2004-01-05          73078

Chief,
Sorry about the link. I was trying to put it in the 'body'
of the message instead of the end.
Try it now. The whole site has some interesting information.
If it doesn't work, point your browser to:
This Site->> www.tpub.com/content/construction/14026/css/14026_17.htm
....


Link:   Safe Working Load Link

 
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shortmagnum
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2004-01-05          73098

A logging update: My spruce plot is pretty well thinned. The trees were so thick that I could not fell any, the canopy was locked together at the top. I had to cut each one off completely (almost never recommended) and yank the base of the tree out with the tractor. By the end I could grab 2-3 at a time. Those I took ranged from 5" to 16" at the base leaving mostly 8-20 inch trees. This thinning should really benefit the plot in 20 years or so. I should take another 3-4 cords out but I have one truckload now (~14 cords) and I wouldn't have enough for two. Oh yes, the kubota performed flawlessly.
Dave ....

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Al Gallant
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2004-01-13          73858

I have logged some of property this fall with my atv, and pulled out 15" plus 12 and 24' logs with a home made contraption we call a skidmate. tongue to the ATV, two wheels and a steel bunk. position the skidmate so you drop the butt ( close to the cut ) on it, the limb and chain it down, drag to the log pile, only the far end is dirty.
alternatively, make a sled to get the front of the log off the ground, minimal dirt ....

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Chief
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2004-01-13          73874

Skidded my first log yesterday!

I got off to a shakey start pulling a 24 inch log about 50 ft. long that I had cut out of a pile and limbed it. I put the choker cable around it, hooked up to my tractor, put her in 4WD and gradually took up the tension while I locked the differential. The log started to move readily and pulled fine for about 3 ft. and a big branch got hung up in the pile I was pulling it out of and all 4 tires dug in. A quick persuasion with the Stihl O-66 fixed that and I was able to pull it free. I was surprised how well the choker worked and how the tractor pulled a log that big (had about 1/2 a cord of wood in it) Just have to take it slow and easy and be real gentle about setting the differential lock. Sure makes cutting up tree in a pile easier.

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-01-13          73880

Speaking of slow & easy.

Be really careful about stopping too. If a log of surprisingly small size gets moving it can give you a real thump in the britches if you try to stop faster than it wants to.

A good practice is to be sure that you always have somewhere off to one side to swerve into in the event that it decides to pass you. This is an old teamsters trick, horses get real upset when a log bumps them.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-01-14          73931

The link below goes to some good pictures of logging arches for horse skidding but maybe that's the wrong way to phrase it. I think they're used to help keep the horses from skidding. Some may be similar to Al's Skidmate and some have their own winches.

There might be some ideas there for compact tractor skidding. Dang, did it again--it's the logs that are supposed to skid. Guess that's my way of joining Murf's and Chief's comment of 'slow and easy.' Logs and tractors can weigh about the same. If a log decides to go down hill, it's a toss-up which one wins the wrestling match.

It's good to remember that you can't steer when the diff lock is engaged and if there's uneven traction the lock may not disengage either. ....


Link:   logging arches for horses

 
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shortmagnum
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2004-01-14          73937

Tom, The picture of the "scoot" took me back to my childhood. I remember helping my dad load peeled popple on one. We called it a dray and pulled it with the Ford 9N.

I'm a little skeptical about using the wheeled skidders with tractors. Most all skidders work the best if they can transfer a big portion of the weight of the log to the machine. In a CUT you would lift the butt of the log with the 3pt or a winch. You could, however, incorporate the arch/winch part of these rigs to your 3pt and accomplish the same thing. I would be very careful how high I lifted the logs. You would want to keep the center of gravity as low as possible for stability on turns.
Dave ....

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Hendoman
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-01-14          73957

I have been using one of these for 5 years, it was hanging on the wall of the equipment shed when I bought our ranch.
Besides skidding logs,I also use it for pulling out small trees & brush. I use it behind my King Quad, NH 3010S, Ford 600 and will use it with the Koiti 3025-XS I am buying this week.
When I need a longer reach I hook a chain or 2 on.
They are an easy hook up and don't unhook when you pull as log chains tend to do and they unhook easier than a chain when it is under a log. I use a Clevis/Grab hook on the swinging draw bar. ....

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Jim on Timberridge
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2004-01-14          74010

kubotaguy:
I tried using these cable chokers on smaller logs and trees. Didn't like the results. The cable gets pulled into a tight circle around the trunk, and tends to retain the shape. Then it becomes nasty to handle and work with, with all those kinks and curls in memory. Yeah, they can be threaded under logs and tighten up easier at first, but get harder to work with after they get older.
And if you've worked with steel cable, you know how vicious a broken strand can be to the hands if you're not careful handling it.
jim ....

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TomG
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2004-01-15          74043

I'm happy if my chance find of those pics triggered some nostalgia. The comments about use of logging arches with tractors are pretty good.

Weight on the 3ph is good for traction and anything that unloads the rear wheels is bad. For people who want to carry loads that challenge 3ph capacity something that could divide the load between a skidder and 3ph sounds like a good idea although there are safety issues as mentioned. Somebody with a farm tractor used to say they regularly skidded logs where the 3ph load was heavy enough that there was no steering and they relied on brake steering. That probably works but I never though it was a good idea myself. There'd be the problem of going uphill with an already light front end and then picking a greater length of the logs off the ground to add to the 3ph load. I think people in such situations might be able to use an arch to help but maybe a bigger tractor or more trips would be even better. Guess I'm back to slow and easy.

I have the same experience with cable chokers as Jim. The former owner of what is now our camp has an old Case skidder and there's still a bunch of rigging stuff in one of the sheds. One of them is a loop of heavy chain with a number of short lengths attached around the loop. I've wondered if it's some sort of choker. Suppose if I posted a pic somebody here would know what it is. ....

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KevPH
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2004-01-17          74262

Log skidder cable used on the commercial rigs is either 5/8" or 3/4" dia. The chokers pictured are mount to the end of the winch cable. The trick of skidding logs is involves where you connect the cable/chain to the tractor. Pulling from the tractor drawbar will not lift the load to apply weight to the rear drive tires. Connecting to a point just above the rear axle height will produce this effect. By lifting the front for your skid load helps keep the log out of the mud. Note: The front tires will suffer with less traction! I skidded with a Farmall H and popped a few wheelies! LOL! Be safe! ....

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TomG
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2004-01-17          74271

A standard safety rule is 'never pull from anything except the drawbar.' A less rigid interpretation might be 'understand the risks when pulling anything but also understand that the risks are greater from anyplace but the drawbar.'

I know that the 3ph was mostly invented to reduce overturns due to unexpected draft changes. They work by allowing draft to pivot an implement on its lower link pins, which compresses the top-link. Compression on the top-link has some leverage that helps hold down the front of a tractor. It would also increase traction from the front axle on 4wd tractors. I'm thinking that it would be very good if log skidding from a 3ph would use a true 3ph type of attachment. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-01-18          74352

If you can hook the log up short enough (no slack) a 3pt can lift the butt end of almost any log an inch or two which transfers most of the weight of the log to the tractor. The center of gravity is still kept low. The ability to hookup short is where a chain works better than a cable (unless it's used with a winch). If the logs have a diameter so big that you can't lift them then you're probably asking too much from a compact. ....

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KevPH
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2004-01-19          74443

I see you never seen or operated a Skidder before, Ah? ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-01-19          74446

KevPH, Who are you talking to?

The discussions here are typically about the use of compact tractors for varied uses. Almost none of these uses is as efficient as a machine designed for one purpose. Because you can lift a bunch of logs out of the mud with the winch on a pole skidder doesn't mean you should or could try it with a tractor that weighs 10,000 lbs less.

As long as you asked, I have worked a fair number of years in the woods (mostly winters). My little Jonsered chainsaw has cut hundreds of cords. For some of that time I drove a log truck. And yes, I have operated a skidder. I wouldn't assume anything about the people on this website.

....

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JAZAK5
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2004-01-19          74474

logged when I was a kid with my step father,started with a drott 4 crawler and now even with a Jd grapple skidder he cant compete with the new $100,000 slasher/shears /forwarders with two man crews!!!!
until you have a cable snap and wrap itself around your rops (a chain will just break and the links dissipate the energy),cut itself in the log far enough to spend an hour to get it out,the constant maint ie.fraying ,oiling and replacement.in the long run grade 7 chain will out live any cable especially in a wooded enviroment with sharp rocks!!!!!
I will still use chain over cable for maint,safty and overall long term cost. ....

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TomG
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2004-01-20          74524

I'm a fan of chain myself for those reasons. I think all skidders have operator cages to stop flying cable etc. as well as things dropping out of the sky. It'd be good for anybody doing tractor skidding to keep in mind that they are much more exposed than a skidder operator, and skidder operators are protected for good reason.

Logging may be the most dangerous occupation going. Just this summer one person on our fire crew couldn't pull start the fire pumps because he had mashed his hand between a log and skidder. Another person later slashed his ankle through his boot with a chainsaw. Fortunately neither of them were disabling injuries. Logging companies find it difficult to get insurance at any price due to accident rates in logging. Of course tractor skidding for fire wood isn't the same as commercial logging but it's still good to think about the safety stuff. ....

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KevPH
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2004-01-20          74571

First, no compact tractor will fully perform as a foresty cable skidder! The comparison equates like apples to oranges.
There are some who might pull some "poles" ,or smaller logs with their tractor for ,say, fire wood.
If you like to resharpen your dull chain saw, and it will be dull! Just make a cut or two from a pole with mud packed bark.
A way to reduce the amount of mud lathered into the bark is simply keep the pole out of the mud. One might,carry shorter poles with FEL/forks. One might, pull a pole with a very short hitch, to lift the one end of the pole while dragging. Applying less mud. Pulling from your drawbar will not lift the end of the pole when pulled. One might,connect a short chain to the upper connection of a 3pt quick- hitch. The 3pt offers some control of lift. Also, adding weight to the rear tires. BECAREFUL! You would also be lifting weight and possibly reduce/lose steering traction. Lifting to front axle off the ground is very possible! BECAREFUL!
A better option: (FEL/forks)Load poles onto a dump trailer that your tractor and pickup ,both,can pull! Good luck & be safe! ....

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h.petersonjazak5
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2004-01-20          74580

I wasn't realy comparing tractors with skidders,however 5/16-3/8 cable has the same potental as 5/8 in reguards to snapping,fraying, maint ect.
I have seen 1/4 snap and cut overhead garage doors in HALF !!!!!!!!!!! LUCKY ,NO ONE WAS ARROUND !!!!! ....

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