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ronald65
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2005-08-29          115591

Has anyone used "Rim Guard" fluid for weight addition to tractor tires? Is it better than Calcium Chloride? more Expensive? Ron

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kwschumm
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2005-08-29          115599

It weighs less than calcium and is not corrosive like calcium. It's also not available everywhere, or at least it wasn't when I wanted to buy it. ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-29          115600

Calcium Chloride solution can be 15 pounds per gallon. That is why it is used even though it is corrosive if it leaks. I use the CaCl mixture.

I don't see much point in using a lighter fluid. The lighter fluids can be less than half the weight of CaCl. Fluid loaded tires don't ride as well as air filled tires, so if I was not using calcium, I would simply use iron weights. ....

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ronald65
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2005-08-29          115602

According to Rim Guard Their Product weighs 10.7 lbs/ Gallon vs 10.2 withcacl at5/lbs cacl/gallon Ron ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-29          115608

Those RimGuard numbers don't seem right from previous research I've done, but the Canadian site that has the tables isn't working well for me right now. CaCl concentrations of more than 5 lbs/gallon are likely possible adding weight. ....

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greg_g
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2005-08-29          115609

Ron, you said CaCl weighs 10.2 lbs/gal at the five pound rate. What am I missing here? A gallon of water weighs over eight pounds itself. When you add 5 pounds of CaCl to it, where does the other 3 pounds go?

//greg// ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-29          115610

LOL greg, that's funny. Now I know why the numbers didn't look right. Duh. ;) ....

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denwood
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2005-08-29          115612

I can't tell if you guys are kidding. So to risk looking dense, I'll let anyone else know who was unsure where the other 3 pounds went. Take a gallon jug of water and fill it up to the top, 1 gallon. Add 5 pounds of CaCl and see if any water runs out. That is where the 3 pounds went. ....

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greg_g
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2005-08-29          115621

(I'm kidding when I say) it sounds like you must have a government job. No offense, but a mixing procedure like that is is criminaly inefficient. Without wasting water, put 25 gallons of water in a 55 gallon drum. Add 125 pounds of CaCl. No spillage. Drain out a gallon and weigh it.

//greg// ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-30          115636

I finally found the Canadian CaCl tables I was looking for. After converting imperial gallons to US gallons here's the numbers I get.

At 2.4 lbs CaCl/gal. the solution weighs 10.37 lbs/gal.
At 4.2 lbs CaCl/gal. the solution weighs 11.875 lbs/gal.
At 6 lbs CaCl/gal. the solution weighs 13.3 lbs/gal.

So the RimGuard numbers cited above appear to be wrong. ....

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greg_g
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2005-08-30          115645

http://www.genchem.com/calcium/Ind13.pdf is a Canadian CaCl document that sizes the gallon at 3.8 liters. Not sure of your exact calculations, but you may not have had to do the Imperial conversion.

//greg// ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-30          115659

I don't know specifically about Rim Guard, but if it is a salt solution it will increase weight per gallon and will depress freezing point as well as increasing the corrosion potential of the fluid. If Rim Guard is an antifreeze solution then it decreases the density of the water mixture to something on the order of 7 pounds per gallon and depresses the freezing point. Antifreeze solutions are generally based on ethylene glycol, or propylene glycol or an alcohol such as methanol. All of these decrease the density of a water mixture.

If there is something else out there, let me know. Otherwise I am going to chalk this up to creative physics by the marketing department. ....

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ronald65
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2005-08-30          115661

Haven't you ever heard you can't put two gallons in a one gallon bucket? The 5 lbs of Chloride takes up space in the gallon,so you don't have a gallon of water and 5 lbs of chloride. you have 1 gallon of a water and chloride mixture that weghts 10.2 lbs. Ron ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-30          115663

You can load very heavy concentrations of CaCl into water. I recall seeing solutions of up to 15 pounds per gallon, but solutions of around 10.5 pounds per gallon are more stable in that all the CaCl will stay in solution at all times regardless of temperature. A 10.5 pound CaCl solution is good for about -30F. These are density numbers, not pounds of CaCl loaded into a gallon of water.

....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-30          115664

This is silly. If the density of the solution increases the volume of the finished solution will not be the sum of the CaCl volume plus the volume of one gallon of water. What's important is the weight of one gallon of Rimguard vs. the weight of one gallon of CaCl solution. The weight of the CaCl solution can be significantly more than RimGuard based on the numbers posted above, so the RimGuard web site has spun their sales pitch by telling only part of the story. ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-30          115670

Ken is correct. The key word here is "solution" Water disolves CaCL and the resulting solution is denser than water alone. The salt ions go between the water molecules.

Combinations that retain the volume of both parts are called "Mixtures". If you mix a cu ft of sand and a cu ft of water, you will have 2 cu ft of mixture. This is not the same for CaCl. ....

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DRankin
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2005-08-30          115671

As I understand it, the calcium "saturates" the water. To a large extent, it occupies space between the water molecules making the final mixture heavier for the same volume.

Like water "saturating" a blanket, the blanket occupies the same amount of physical space but becomes a lot heavier. ....

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DRankin
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2005-08-30          115673

As an afterthought... I think RimGaurd is a saturated water solution also, but it is saturated with sugar. ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-30          115680

I took a look at Rim Guards site. Mark, where did you find the reference to sugar? You can indeed make some dense sugar mixtures, but they tend to be thick.

There is one main thing that alarms me. "Bio-degradable"; "approved for animal feed". If that is the case, then contamination with bacteria or yeast could cause the solution to spoil.

Maybe I could add some hops to the fermented brew and bottle up some "Ole Tire Pale Ale." ....

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ronald65
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2005-08-30          115681

May I Conclude from all this, that nobody on this forum has used Rimguard? Thanks, Ron ....

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earthwrks
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2005-08-30          115686

I don't know about this discussion, but there are many other discussions about guys using and promoting Rim Guard as tire weight. Funny, I have never had the need for anything in my tires to weight them but do use about a gallon and half of green "Slime" in each of my skid steer and CUT tires for flat-proofing. Have been puncture-free for about 2 years now. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-30          115688

greg, I missed your comment before. The tables I used said clearly they used imperial gallons so a conversion was indeed required. I'm pretty sure the numbers I posted are accurate. Does your table agree with them? ....

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JAZAK5
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2005-08-30          115689

I had rim guard put in my rear tires of my 790 r-4's when I had a valve stem separate from the tube on warranty work ,cal removed tubes taken out. I really do not know the specific weight difference however I know they weigh over 300 lbs ea. They seem to perform well and the tires do not seem to oscilate at road speeds {hi 4} I was told it has the same freezing point as rv anti freeze - 40 degrees I do know that it is a sugar beet by product that was developed in the mid west ,apparently tire rupture and dispensing cal cl in a crop field or fresh water source by dual quad articulated tractors became a issue. ....

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ronald65
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2005-08-30          115690

Hi, Now thats the reply I was looking for! is it working for you as good as the Calcium Chloride?good traction & no worry about corrosion? where did you get it.Your tire Dealer or your tractor dealer? Ron ....

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denwood
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2005-08-30          115691

You cannot destroy matter in this manner. If you have 1 gallon of water weighing around 8 pounds and you add 5 pounds of calcium. you must have around 13 pounds. It cannot still be 1 gallon and only weigh 10.5 pounds. Sure it is a solution and will not have a volume equal to the sum of both, but I don't remember any mention of the volume of calcium. If it is not 13 pounds per gallon, the volume must increase to some degree. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-30          115693

You're not destroying matter, you're increasing density. Why does one cubic foot of lead weigh more than one cubic foot of aluminum? Density. If you can increase the density of the solution you increase it's weight without increasing it's volume. ....

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DRankin
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2005-08-30          115694

"Mark, where did you find the reference to sugar?"

OK. Good question. Maybe I just assumed(Oh-Oh)that there isn't a whole lot more that you can extract from sugar beets that is safe for animal feed other than a compound that primarily comes down to saturated sugar.

I am willing to take correction on this issue, but not on the concept of saturated salt solutions.

I spent several years making my own dialysis concentrate. I made it in 200 gallon batches and hoisted hundreds of pounds of sodium, calcium, magnesium, potassium and glucose over the lip of that dang tank only to wonder why the water level didn't change to any appreciable amount.



....

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ronald65
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2005-08-31          115711

This is kinda fun, Rim Guard is a Sugar Beet extract or Byproduct. Its specific gravity is 1.29 (water is 1.0)I don't care if CA CL 2 is heavier than Rim guard, I don't want to use it in my new tractor cause I've seen what it does to tractor rims if you get a leak. It was in my MF when I bought it and I had to buy a new rim. Ron ....

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1timefarmer
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2005-08-31          115713

What I have read previous to this particular post (not sure where) basically aggrees.
RIMGUARD is heavier than water, but not as heavy as CaCl, but also has a fairly low freeze point, and is relatively environmentally friendly if there should happen to be a leak/spill.
When I enquired about getting the rear tires of my JD2210 "loaded", the JD dealer said they would get a tire shop to put tubes in the tires, and then add the CaCl solution. The tubes would protect the rims from corrosion, rather than just add the CaCl to the tubeless tires, but a puncture would still result in a more toxic leak. ....

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DRankin
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2005-08-31          115715

If you do some math I think you might find that the tires on your 2210 will not hold enough fluid to make much difference.

You would be better off with some Kubota(less expensive than Deere)wheel weights. ....

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denwood
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2005-08-31          115720

I am well aware of density changes but no matter if it is the same volume or not, the 8 pounds of water added to 5 pounds of calcium must weigh the sum of the 2 unless some chemical reaction took place and energy was released. So if the volume did not change, the weight of 10.5 is wrong. If 1 gallon of solution weighs 10.5 pounds and 5 is calcium, only 5.5 can be water. 5.5 pounds of water is not a gallon. If you boil off the water, you should still have 5 pounds of calcium, you sure are not going to boil off 8 pounds of water from a 10.5 pound gallon and have 5 pounds left. ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-31          115721

Mark, I read over the MSDS on Rim Guard and it is not clear what is in there. They talk about organic and non-organic content, but that does not really say much. The organic part could be a sugar or sugar alcohol or something else. The non-organic component could be a salt like CaCl. I did notice that the pH is above 10 which is good for protecting steel.

Earth...I have tires loaded with CaCl because I lift very heavy weights with my FEL. Even with the loaded tires, I can still get the rear end too light to drive if I don't use additional ballast in the rear. If I do start to lift something that is too heavy and the rear end becomes too light and the tires slip, I can often use FWD to make the tractor move, but this is a risky condition. I carry such loads very low. With really heavy loads, I mount my backhoe attachment and that adds enough ballast to reach full capacity on my FEL. I haven't calculated the CaCl load, but it has to be nearly 800# or more in total. I have large (for a CT) R4 tires. My tractor with backhoe and FEL probably tops out at over 5000 pounds. I move >2000 pound objects like milling machines and large weldments on a fairly regular basis over irregular terrain. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-08-31          115722

We're talking past each other. If you have one gallon of water (8.3 lbs) in a two gallon bucket and dissolve 2.4 lbs of CaCal in it the total weight will be 10.7 lbs (ignoring the bucket) and the volume will have increased only slightly. If you pour off one gallon of the solution it will weigh 10.37 lbs. ....

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denwood
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2005-08-31          115723

That makes perfect sense to me, and the math works. ....

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AC5ZO
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2005-08-31          115724

I think that the confusion is coming from the data restated from Rim Guard. The amount of CaCl in a 10.7 pound per gallon solution is 2.8 pounds not 5 pounds of CaCl.

Five pounds of CaCl will make a ~13 pound per gallon solution, but it is not stable at all temperaturs and sometimes solid CaCl will come out of solution as solid.

Manufacturers promote their products and sometimes they use confusing specifications and assertions to do that.

....

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Murf
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2005-08-31          115726

We use a calcium based liquid for ballast (sort of), but not on a CUT, and not in the tires, but rather over them.

We have a 2,000 gallon tank that we apply a calcium magnesium acetate with for de-icing. In average application rates it is very plant & environment friendly, in fact it's bio-degradable. It has a very low corrosion rate on exposed metal and best of all, it's not considered a 'haz-mat' substance.

It would probably be very effective as a tire ballast liquid for most areas, since it will still melt ice at -22° C. and it doesn't freeze itself at -40° C. that we've had it down to, although it only has a specific gravity of 1.2.

It is basically a solution of Dolomitic Lime and Acetic Acid. It has a 3:7 Ca to Mg molar ratio for those who care to know.

Best of luck. ....

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JAZAK5
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2005-08-31          115738

ron, it seems to perform very well,doesnt freeze/rust the rims' reason why the dealer did it{18 mos left on a two year warranty and 80 miles away) my dealer is SN Valley Supply in Oneonta,NY.
I know for a fact that I have plenty of weight,when I finally lose traction I am filling ruts !!!!!! ....

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Peters
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2005-09-01          115801

I can see some need to return to high school chemistry. When you add a salt to water the volume only stays the same until the inter molecular voids (the spaces between the water molecules) are filled. After that the volume increases. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-09-01          115803

You're not kidding. 30 years of non-use will do that to a person. Of course it was just last year that I finally dumped my old textbooks. ....

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ronald65
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2005-09-02          115834

Thanks for the info,I have a tire dealer in town working on it now. My Kubota Manual says for the 17.5-24 tire on my tractor at 75% fill andusing Ca Cl At 5lbs/gallon (good for -47 deg.F no slush) i can add 588 lbs to each wheel. Rimguard tables say I can add 588 lbs/ wheel with 75% fill. It looks like all the discussion was interesting but didn't accomplish much except to get people thinking some. thanks again. I'm new to these forums and don't know if you post to everyone when you reply to an individual by clicking on the reply buttonunder their post or just to the individual. but I'm about to find out. Ron ....

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kwschumm
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2005-09-02          115858

This thread has brought up some interesting information, enough to know that those numbers your tire guy quoted you are probably wrong.

At 10.7 lbs/gallon (Ron's number from the RimGuard site) the tires hold 54.95 gallons (588 lbs / 10.7 lbs/gal).

At a rate of 4.2 lbs/gallon CaCl weighs 11.875 lbs/gallon. 54.95 gallons x 11.875 means the CaCl mixture would weigh 652 lbs. A five lb. mix may weigh even more, but I don't have the weight at a 5 lb rate.

The extra weight may not matter to you but you might want to know about it. ....

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ronald65
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2005-09-02          115862

Hi,Here are som figures for you, part of the misunderstanding is that the Ca Cl that we generally use to mix with water is only 77-80 % pure. The tables Provided on General Chemical Industrial Products Inc is quite complete and accurate.4.94 Lbs of Ca Cl flakes of
77-80% purity added to 1 Gallon of water at 60deg. F gives you 1.241 Gallons of a solution that weighs 10.7 lb/Gal.this sulution remains crystal free down to -49.4 deg.F if you go above 5.58 lbs/gal of the same the crystalization start temp is -29.9 deg and we generally get below that each winter.so, I would say the main reason our figures don't agree, is because we aren't using a pure Ca CL 2 product to start with. the 585 Lb figure I stated
(I guess I actually put 588Lbs)came out of My Kubota Owners Manual and they state 5 lbs/gal -47 deg. F they also give the weight for 3.5 lb/gal 550 lbs -24 deg.F Ron ....

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ronald65
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2005-09-02          115864

One more & I'll drop it, according to the table I mentioned 4.18 lbs/gal of calcium cloride flakes of 77-80 % purity /gal of water weights 10.42 lbs/gal. I don't think anyone uses pure Ca Cl 2 in tractor tire weighting.
It would have to be produced chemically in a factory instead of using a natual product. Ron ....

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earthwrks
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2005-09-02          115865

Aside from all the mind-numbing numbers---is there any real evidence that Ca Cl is, in itself, caustic or corrosive? All things considered, we use this locally in pellet form (by itself or mixed with rock salt) for de-icing roads in the winter and in a liquid form for dust control on roads otherwise. And I read on my favorite low-sugar jelly container Ca Cl is in it too (probably as a tasteless filler). It's also found in food packaging, and wood and electronic packaging in packet form as a dessicant to draw and store moisture away safely from the product.

Maybe it is the water in the solution that is the rust promoter when it comes to using it in tires on steel rims. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-09-02          115867

The numbers I posted were from the British Columbia Ministry of Agriculture and are using Type I (77%) CaCl. These numbers disagree with those you cited. Who the heck knows. ....

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ronald65
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2005-09-02          115868

As to it being Caustic, ask your local tire dealer, its probably the concentrations used, Many cities in the north are switching or using it along with sodium chloride on the roads to melt ice. also being used on gravel and dirt roads to keep down dust. it attracts water. Ron ....

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DRankin
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2005-09-02          115872

Corrosive? Of course it is corrosive. It is a salt. It is inorganic, a component of sea water.

It has a double bond, (calcium carries two chloride atoms for example, hence the CaCl2 nomenclature), so it is not as "hungry" or as corrosive as sodium, which has a single bond.

If you want to get more of it(Calcium)in solution.... as in more saturated with the water and therefore heavier, just add some acid. Vinegar (acidic acid) would do the job. But I don't think it will be any kinder to the metal in your rims if you do.

The reason Rim Guard is better for contact with metal is that it is primarily organic (sugar based) solution and it has a neutral(acid/base balance)Ph.

....

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Danman1
Join Date: Jul 2005
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2005-09-04          115907

Just for trivea when, you have more salt than water...
If I recall correctly, sodium chloride absorbs water to an atmosphere equlibrium of around 75.8%RH at room temp. We used to use containers filled with different salts to calibrate humidity probes at differnt levels. Lithium chloride as I recall will maintain a 12% RH in a closed environment,that is, up until the salt is completely saturated. ....

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