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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-05-31          56125

I'm very interested in the CadPlans/Metkit Hoe and loader kits, and am in the investigating it stage.

I am a General Contractor with a background in Commercial electrical Construction. I recently acquired some property in northern California, and want to get to work improving it. I'm hoping to get away from the remodel work I've been doing and start building spec homes (for myself, not another contractor).

I'm looking for a machine that will allow me to dig residential foundations and trenching for sewer, gas, electrical and water service. Also some landscaping and light land clearing/demolition work.The dirt up in the mountains where I'm moving to i a lot harder than the stuff I'm used to in the LA area, so I don't know if these machines are only for easy digging or if they can handle some harder stuff too.

I like the fact that the cad diggers and similar machines from their competitors are so small and lightweight.

I plan on buying an older stakebed truck (probably 12'/1 ton) in the next week or so to use for moving and for hauling materials. I currently work out of a newer 1/2 ton chevy van that is pretty much loaded with tools and supplies to the point that I don't want to use it for towing the hoe/loader, so the 1 ton will also be used for this.

My new home is above the snow line so I will need to use the 1 ton for work during that 3 to four month period of the year as the van wont be able to deal with the snow. I was thinking I could build a blade that would attach to the front of the loader bucket for clearing snow and then sell the snow blower that is currently on the lawn tractor.

I currently have a Lawn Chief (18 hp) tractor, but I'm thinking it might be too small to use for the digger/loader.

I'm also wondering if these mini backhoes are too big and heavy to actually transport in 'the back' of the stakebed, as I haven't got any spects yet on weight, but I'm fearing they are probably to heavy for that. But it dont hurt to ask.

Just asking at this point for input on all this. Wondering if these things are sufficient for my needs.

The idea of buying a ford or case backhoe makes me dizzy when I think about moving it around and dealing with the insurance, etc.

Thanks in advance for all your insight


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-01          56132

I've got a 2500 lbs. tractor including loader. The backhoe for it weights 650 lbs. and digs to 6' with a 2' bottom. Basically, the machine needs quite a bit of weight to dig very deep because there's a lot of leverage on the tractor when there's a full bucket and the hoe is stretched out. Weight is also needed to keep a hoe with any power from moving the tractor around. Generally a hoe-equipped tractor requires a loader for safety reasons.

Trenching for branch circuits under roadways here requires 4' depth w/o protection and not including 6" of sand protection on the trench bottom. Trenching at those depths even with my 6' hoe requires moving the tractor frequently and it takes a lot of time. It also means digging close to the tractor. Digging close isn't much of an issue for trenching but it is for larger excavations. You don't want the wall to collapse and the tractor and operator to end up in the hole.

There are several discussions in the archives about CAD Plan hoes for 3ph tractors and Bill has built one. He likes it just fine the last time he mentioned it. These hoes are hydraulic driven and I'm not sure if the Lawn Chief has a rugged hitch or big enough hydraulics to operate a hoe very well. Generally small hoes take about 6 gmp flow to produce enough power and speed to make them very useful. 3ph mounted hoes are hard on a tractor frames and have been known to break tractors in half.
....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-01          56146

Thanks for your reply.

So then, is 2500 lbs including loader typical for the small lawn tractors? If so, then I guess that it's too heavy for carrying around in the back of the stakebed, especially when the hoe is added to the mix, and I'd need to trailer it.

Or can I expect the smaller tractors to be significantly less than 2500 lbs? I guess what I'm asking is how big your tractor is in comparison to mine.

I need to dig to depths of up to 5' plus condits and sand bed, meaning 6' deep trenches. I don't 'expect' to be doing much in the way of excavating, but your points are well taken.

As far as the hydralics go, the lawn chief doesn't have a pump as all the accessories are belt driven. So I was assuming that I would use a belt to drive a pump. The question I have is if an 18 hp tractor is adequate enough to drive a large enough pump and the tractor.

Regarding weight, I would definitely plan on having a loader on the other end. I'm getting too old (or is it smart/lazy) to backfill the sand , and clean up the dig with a wheelbarrow and shovel ... B)

Regarding the three point hitch and tractor frame strength. Is this possible to beef up during construction (adding stell to the frame) of the backhoe. Or is all this simply impractical and I should consider a bigger tractor. For me small is good. The smaller that I can get away with the better. I definitely want sufficient size to do the tasks described, but I'm thinking that with reduced size I can get in tight spaces while trenching, and transport issues are minimized.

If I were to look into a bigger tractor, how can I find out what my tractor is worth? I am finding very littel info on the web concerning the lawn chief brand.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-02          56237

I have a Ford 1710. They are classified as a compact and likely quite a bit bigger than your tractor. It was originally delivered without implements on a stake bed of a big Dodge with a stake bed on it--probably not much different than the truck you're thinking of. The trucker has used a flat bed trailer ever since though.

I think the trouble is going to be that the work you describe is going to take a hoe at least the size of mine to get it done adequately and that is going to take a tractor about the size of mine. Even a 6' hoe will take a long time to 6' dig 6' trenches and even more time if you can dump only to one side. You run out of reach and have to push back the piles with the bucket side. Many small hoes don't have full 180-degree swings, which makes the problem worse.

A belt driven pump is feasible and frame beefing is tricky but doable. However, when you're all done you still haven't got something that's actually designed as a tractor that weights enough and can use 3ph implements. One of the main reasons to buy a tractor is so you can buy 3ph implements.

My tractor is a bit over-sized for my on-going work and I still use a 12hp-riding mower for the lawn because it's faster than an oversized tractor would be. I still have enough snow blowing, grading, heavy lifting and digging to keep it busy enough to suit me.
....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-02          56252

Thanks for the reply,

So, if yours is oversized and mine is undersized, what is the smallest I can get away with? What would be recommended?

I dont plan to have to dig the deep trenches too often, but 2 to 3 foot trenches could be a lot more common.

I notice the diggers from p f engineering offer 170 degrees of swing. Are the little cub and JD tractors they are using in these project photos still too small? Although they aren't really much more powerful engine wise, they do seem to be a little bigger and some have hydraulic take offs. There are quite a few for sale on ebay that are reasonably affordable, but I'm concerned about shipping charges.

I'm afraid the tractors in the size range (ford 1710) you're describing are going to be a bit too pricey (a quick search shows them in the $6k to $9k range) by the time I buy the loader ad hoes kits, the cost'll really be getting up there. Plus they might be a bear to transport by the time I add a loader/hoe.

I notice that I don't see any of these modified mini tractors for sale anywhere. I'm thinking that the only possible reason is that they are too new and there aren't many out there, they are so cool the owners don't want to let them go, or they are hardly ever finished enough to sell. I don't know which is the reason, but I'm hoping it's because they are too cool. ...B)

The other question I could use some feedback with is if the companies that sell these plans/kits will give me honest feedback to my questions or just say whatever they think I want to hear to make a sale. Any light that can be shed here also would be great. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-06-02          56259

As a point of reference, my Kubota BX22 tractor/loader/backhoe package weighs about 2600 pounds when fully assembled and is 14 feet long when rigged for transport.

BX22's can be purchased in Northern California/Nevada for around $16K and a thousand cheaper in Portland.

I know of no smaller TLB packages out there, though several are very close in dimensions and weight.

if you can, please provide the links for the machines you are looking at, they sound interesting. ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-02          56265

Hi,

$16k is way out of reach, and 14' is getting kinda big. 2600 lbs total weight is sounding promising though. If I can lop about 600-800 lbs off of that (which the smaller units might do), the back of stakebed transport idea might be feasible. B)

Here's some links


http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo4.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo2.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo3.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo6.html
http://www.cadplans.com/
http://www.cadplans.com/customer.htm
http://www.cadplans.com/diggers.htm
http://www.cadplans.com/loaders.htm
http://www.metkit.com/
http://www.ubuilditplans.com/webpage4_page2.htm
http://www.how-to-plans.com/loader_plans.html
http://cdp-tractors.com/ ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-02          56277

Hi Mark,

I just realized that you're talking about $16 for a brand new tractor with hoe and loader already built and attached.

How much can these tractors be had for used? I might be intersted in this route if I can get a bare bones tractor/loader for around $4k or so, and then add the backhoe myself. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-06-02          56281

I don't want to be the guy who bursts your bubble, but... you need visit a tractor dealer and drive something for reference.

I don't know how they manufactured some of the photo's on the PF web site but there is no garden tractor on earth that is going to lift a huge piece of metal with a jury rigged FEL and no rear ballast. My tractors are made for FEL's and would require about 800 to 1000 pounds of counterweight to haul something as heavy as that picture portrays.

I tried to use a two wheel drive garden tractor once to push freshly fallen snow and it was a miserable failure.

I currently have two 1500 pound compact tractors and the front loaders on either one are virtually useless if I try to operate them in two wheel drive. I cannot imagine how you will move dirt if you do not have the traction to drive the bucket into the pile.

I also have a small backhoe on the tractor I spoke of that has a 2600 pound equipped operating weight. If that tractor weighed less than it does the backhoe would simply jack the whole tractor off the ground instead of digging.

Though you can get by on very little horse power, you will need a minimum amount of mass (like a ton) in the tractor and its assembled components to do the work you plan.

You will not be happy with the performance of a riding mower rigged up with a FEL or a backhoe. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-06-02          56283

Ok... we are both e-mailing at the same instant.

Yes, 4wd, diesel, grey market or used tractors are available in the price range you stipulated. I will let someone else with more experience in that area jump in here.

There is a recent post by someone in the Northern Calif area who has just such a tractor for sale. ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-02          56285

Hi Mark,

Do you know where this post was? What was the thread name, approximate date, and forum posted in?


I think the lawn tractor I have (It used to belong to my dad) is 4 wheel drive (I'm 600 miles away right now so I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure I saw a shift lever for switching between 2 and 4 wheel drive), but I highly doubt it gets anywhere near that weight. If I had to guess, I would say it weights around a thousand pounds. Add a backhoe and FEL from those plans, and that might bump it up to 1500 to 1800 lbs (but the tractor may indeed weigh more) ....

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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2003-06-02          56327

I built a 708 CadPlans Caddigger. Installed and used on a New Holland TC29, which weighs about 3000 pounds with ballast. The 708 is supposed to weight 600-800 pounds, depending on which specs you see. Whatever it weighs, it is a little too heavy for my TC. I have to have at least 300 pounds of front ballast (I don't have a FEL on my tractor) to keep the front end on the ground.
As for how it works, it works OK for my own home use. It would probably last forever in this capacity; but I would use it less in a year than a contractor would in a week. I don't think it would be the right tool for commercial use. The other bad thing is the 708 is supposed to be able to dig 7' deep. By the machine geometry, it could, but you couldn't accomplish much at that depth.
Good luck,
Bill ....

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2003-06-02          56329

I too have built from CADplans. I have built a 907 loader for a 25 HP 2wd over grown garden tractor - WheelHorse D250. This particular tractor is approximately the same size, though a little taller and larger tires as that of the BX22, almost that of a B7500.(go see a Kubota dealer asap for sizing and comparisons)

The 907 loader came out beautiful, with higher capacities than those of the then present day orange FEL's, and the materials used were much beefier.

For a small garden tractor, something that you have described, CADplans sells a kit #508digger. This is the smallest and is mounted easily, and sized well, for your size tractor, though the digging depth is marginal, at 4+ feet. As was previously mentioned, the weight of the tractor is important for proper hoe operation.

Interested in CADplans, give John a shout...he'll be happy to discuss your needs and his offerings with you at 540.992.4758 between 6:00pm and 9:00pm est.

Willie H. - (a satisfied CADplans purchaser) ....

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p.f.eng.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3 Amherst, MA
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2003-06-18          57918

Mark H.- i don't think Al Zimmerman would take kindly to you calling his loader "jury rigged" nor are the pics on my web site "manufactured". if you do the math on a pair of 2" bore hydraulic cylinders running at 1000 PSI you'll find their lifting capacity to be well in excess of 540LBS. and with filled rear tires and a few hundred pounds of counterweight on a 1000LB tractor, lifting 540LBS is not an impossible task. the loader and hoe i engineered are the perfect match for Garden Tractors, the hoe weighs a little less than 350lbs, has 5-1/2' digging depth with a 10" bucket, 170 degrees slew rotation, hydraulic stabilizers and curls up tighter for transport than ANY other design out there. if you want to compare the smallest CAD plans hoe to my design, it weighs 450lbs WITHOUT hydraulic stabilizers, has only 140 degrees slew rotation, hangs waaaay off the back of the tractor and requires a 3-point hitch for mounting. i also sell the complete package of hoe and loader plans together for $135 where as you would be fortunate to get the loader plans alone from cadplans for that price.

De Twang- you are correct in saying that the "cool factor" is way over the top on these little diggers, if you are interested in purchasing a complete tractor with my design loader/hoe there are 3 being built for resale in Escondido, California. total weight on these will be under 1500LBS. give me a call (413) 256-4960 or email me

~ thanks ....


Link:   p.f.engineering

 
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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-18          57920

I saw an interesting setup yesterday. It was a so cal gas company truck fitted with a mini hoe on the back. The how was fairly heavy duty in it's construction and was mounted on a horizontal sliding bed (the bed was mounted vertically so that the hoe could slide left to right like on some forklifts).

The truck was probably equivalent to a F450 superduty (like some of the medium duty tow trucks out there). This offers up some interesting possibilities, but still doesn't solve the dilemna of needing a loader too for backfilling. ....

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p.f.eng.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-18          57922

i had one customer email me about mounting the loader and hoe on his old 4WD Jeep CJ. it was a very intriguing concept to me, the loader boom could easily be widened at the cross member for the width of the jeep frame, bucket made wider and towers mounted outside the frame with braces to forward points on the frame. likewise the hoe could easily be solid mounted to the rear on it's 4 pin hitch design. i've also had inquiries from a guy in Peru, S. America thinking about doing the same on a flat bed farm truck he has. neither of these folks went through with the building but the ideas sure were interesting!

~ Paul ....


Link:   p.f.engineering

 
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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-06-18          57924

Hmmmm....

Mark H. - "Gee I don't think you can do that without several hundred pounds of counter weights."


PF- "Of course it can do that, it just needs several hundred pounds of counter weights."

Am I missing something? ....

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p.f.eng.
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2003-06-18          57926

mark H. wrote: (quote) "I don't know how they manufactured some of the photo's on the PF web site but there is no garden tractor on earth that is going to lift a huge piece of metal with a jury rigged FEL and no rear ballast."

P.F. Engineering replied: (quote) "if you do the math on a pair of 2" bore hydraulic cylinders running at 1000 PSI you'll find their lifting capacity to be well in excess of 540LBS. and with filled rear tires and a few hundred pounds of counterweight on a 1000LB tractor, lifting 540LBS is not an impossible task."

mark- perhaps what you wrote and what you were thinking were two different things, i was responding to what i saw in writing. i apologize if i seem a bit forward here, but i do feel the need to defend the integrity of my customer and my web site from accusatory statements. Al Zimmerman owns and operates heavy equipment for a living and is no stranger to metal fabrication or the principals involved in lifting heavy objects with a hydraulic front end loader. i place full trust in his abilities to construct and operate his loader without questioning whether the photos he sent me were manufactured or re-touched. ....


Link:   p.f.engineering

 
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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-06-18          57929

Easy folks, step AWAY from the keyboard and holster that mouse.

Mark, I was REALLY sceptical myself, then I started to look a little more carefully at the photos. Liquid-filled tires I can't speak about, but if you enlarge the photo you see what appears to be a JD green-coloured rear counter-balance just visible between the left rear fender and tire. I also noted that p.f. eng. notes on the website that Allan Zimmerman "...made some minor adjustments to our plans...", if you compare the photos of his to the ones at the bottom of that page it appears that one of the modifications was to shorten the loader boom arms, bringing the bucket much closer in to the machine. This shorter coupling would result in much greater lift power, but lower lift height capacity. It also appears that the lift cylinder mounts lower towards the bucket on the loader arms, this to would increase the power by changing the leverage ratio.

I don't think it's for me, but then again I've built some pretty wacky stuff......

BTW, truck-mounted backhoes used to be REALLY common around here, almost every decent-sized Township had one, they were WAY less expensive than a Gradall and travelled far faster than a conventional hoe. Some contractors still use them for roadside work.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2003-06-18          57930

Yes. That is what I said. No rear ballast.

Let's try it this way.

We both agree that whatever you put on the front end has to be counter-balanced on the rear end. (I think.)

I looked at the photo again. Where are the several hundred pounds of counterweight? I see about 100 pounds of wheel weights, but that is all.

What mechanism did you or Al(?)construct to lift, convey or carry the hundreds of pounds of weight that must be in place on the rear of any tractor to safely use a FEL?

I think your projects are interesting and indeed may have some niche in the market place. I think you have every right to communicate your products and ideas.

We can bat this back and forth, but I don't think you are going to get me to the point where I recommend that someone drive past the Kubota, Deere or New Holland dealer and instead buy a used Sears riding mower, a welder and one of your kits.

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-06-18          57931

Mark, I beg to differ but I can clearly see a rear-mounted counter-balance visible on Alan Zimmermans machine, the one pictured lifting the sweeper.

If you look closely between the left rear tire & fender it is visible. ....

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DRankin
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2003-06-18          57938

Murf, we were posting at the same time. Check the Post#'s.

Now that I see your post, I do see there is 'something' back there.

There are a lot of issues here, but I will desist.

Can I use my mouse now? ....

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Murf
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2003-06-18          57940

Lock and load, sir, click at will.....

I still don't think I'll trade in my CUT'c for lawn tractors.

Best of luck. ....

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plots1
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2003-06-18          57954

Iv'e seen one of those lawn mowers with a loader on it and I can say it wasn't able to lift very much with out lifting it off the ground (rear end) but I though it was kinda neat. I might try to fab one up on my 20 horse MTD just for giggles around the neiborhood. ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2003-06-18          57968

Let me know how it goes, because I think that a 20 hp MTD might correspond to my 18hp Chief.

....

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TomG
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2003-06-22          58109

While coming back from some camping, which at this time of year really is just entertaining the mosquitoes, black flies and no-see-ums, I saw a whole row of what looked like miniature loader/hoes along the highway. I don't know who made them but they were cute. At least they appeared to be designed as diggers. Counter-weighting a lightweight unit is one thing, but hanging loads off the front and rear of a lawn tractor is likely to just jackknife the frame. A hoe of any power is as likely to pull the machine into the hole as it is to dig much dirt.

The thing about ordinary hydraulic systems is that they only do one thing at a time. To dig with a hoe, a bunch of separate operations are taken and each of them is slow when run from a small volume pump. A person with a shovel does these operations simultaneously and the machine doesn't have to be very small before a person with a shovel is faster. Of course, the machine may be cute and fun, and also maybe is preferable to many people if they're facing a long time at the end of a shovel on a hot day.

I've seen things for each end of ATV's as well but I'm not sure how seriously to take them for doing work. On the bright side, my friends the dragonflies are out in hordes and they should chop the other bugs down to size in a week or so. We'd get more work out of them if they were bigger but then they might start thinking about eating me. A tiny machine may be more likely to eat me than a bigger one however. Guess there's a point here somewhere.
....

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DeTwang
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2003-06-22          58123

I saw a road crew the other day and sitting off to one side was one of those mini hoes like in the CAD plans page where there is no tractor it is attached to, but rather is trailered to where it digs and has it's own seat and engine with no mean of self locomotion (other than dragging itself along with the hoe). I thought it interesting that they used such a lightweight tool on heavy construction.

But after thinking about it a while, I think what was going on is that they used the two other full sized hoes for the majority of the work and then had that thing around for 'tight' spots. None the less, it's interesting that they had enough confidence in this thing to have it as part of their on site equipment list. I wished I had more time, as I would have liked to stop and ask them what they used it for and how well it performed. ....

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marklugo
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Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-06-22          58131

Okay,
I know that the CAD thing is enticing. But what will you have when you finish? About 3000-4000 in a hoe that may or may not do the work you require. And one no one else may be intersted in buying once you ge through.

May I be so bold as to offer an slight improvemnent, one that I was comtemplating for our Mazzotti backhoes. Being a three point hitch mounted hoe, they have the ability to be modified without structural changes to fit on a trailer. Add an engine and a jackshaft(or remove the 540 reducer housing of the pump) and two front stabilizers and you are finished in a day. Yes it may cost slightly more, but you have a industrial backhoe mounted on a trailer. Plus if the day comes for something with four wheels moving under its own power, it can be removed and used back on a tractor. Cost for hoe :$4595 ....

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