Build it yourself Loader Hoes : Back Hoe  -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum and Review Build it yourself Loader Hoes : Back Hoe -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum

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 05-31-2003, 23:13 Post: 56125
DeTwang



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

I'm very interested in the CadPlans/Metkit Hoe and loader kits, and am in the investigating it stage.

I am a General Contractor with a background in Commercial electrical Construction. I recently acquired some property in northern California, and want to get to work improving it. I'm hoping to get away from the remodel work I've been doing and start building spec homes (for myself, not another contractor).

I'm looking for a machine that will allow me to dig residential foundations and trenching for sewer, gas, electrical and water service. Also some landscaping and light land clearing/demolition work.The dirt up in the mountains where I'm moving to i a lot harder than the stuff I'm used to in the LA area, so I don't know if these machines are only for easy digging or if they can handle some harder stuff too.

I like the fact that the cad diggers and similar machines from their competitors are so small and lightweight.

I plan on buying an older stakebed truck (probably 12'/1 ton) in the next week or so to use for moving and for hauling materials. I currently work out of a newer 1/2 ton chevy van that is pretty much loaded with tools and supplies to the point that I don't want to use it for towing the hoe/loader, so the 1 ton will also be used for this.

My new home is above the snow line so I will need to use the 1 ton for work during that 3 to four month period of the year as the van wont be able to deal with the snow. I was thinking I could build a blade that would attach to the front of the loader bucket for clearing snow and then sell the snow blower that is currently on the lawn tractor.

I currently have a Lawn Chief (18 hp) tractor, but I'm thinking it might be too small to use for the digger/loader.

I'm also wondering if these mini backhoes are too big and heavy to actually transport in 'the back' of the stakebed, as I haven't got any spects yet on weight, but I'm fearing they are probably to heavy for that. But it dont hurt to ask.

Just asking at this point for input on all this. Wondering if these things are sufficient for my needs.

The idea of buying a ford or case backhoe makes me dizzy when I think about moving it around and dealing with the insurance, etc.

Thanks in advance for all your insight






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 06-01-2003, 07:47 Post: 56132
TomG

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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

I've got a 2500 lbs. tractor including loader. The backhoe for it weights 650 lbs. and digs to 6' with a 2' bottom. Basically, the machine needs quite a bit of weight to dig very deep because there's a lot of leverage on the tractor when there's a full bucket and the hoe is stretched out. Weight is also needed to keep a hoe with any power from moving the tractor around. Generally a hoe-equipped tractor requires a loader for safety reasons.

Trenching for branch circuits under roadways here requires 4' depth w/o protection and not including 6" of sand protection on the trench bottom. Trenching at those depths even with my 6' hoe requires moving the tractor frequently and it takes a lot of time. It also means digging close to the tractor. Digging close isn't much of an issue for trenching but it is for larger excavations. You don't want the wall to collapse and the tractor and operator to end up in the hole.

There are several discussions in the archives about CAD Plan hoes for 3ph tractors and Bill has built one. He likes it just fine the last time he mentioned it. These hoes are hydraulic driven and I'm not sure if the Lawn Chief has a rugged hitch or big enough hydraulics to operate a hoe very well. Generally small hoes take about 6 gmp flow to produce enough power and speed to make them very useful. 3ph mounted hoes are hard on a tractor frames and have been known to break tractors in half.






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 06-01-2003, 10:12 Post: 56146
DeTwang



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

Thanks for your reply.

So then, is 2500 lbs including loader typical for the small lawn tractors? If so, then I guess that it's too heavy for carrying around in the back of the stakebed, especially when the hoe is added to the mix, and I'd need to trailer it.

Or can I expect the smaller tractors to be significantly less than 2500 lbs? I guess what I'm asking is how big your tractor is in comparison to mine.

I need to dig to depths of up to 5' plus condits and sand bed, meaning 6' deep trenches. I don't 'expect' to be doing much in the way of excavating, but your points are well taken.

As far as the hydralics go, the lawn chief doesn't have a pump as all the accessories are belt driven. So I was assuming that I would use a belt to drive a pump. The question I have is if an 18 hp tractor is adequate enough to drive a large enough pump and the tractor.

Regarding weight, I would definitely plan on having a loader on the other end. I'm getting too old (or is it smart/lazy) to backfill the sand , and clean up the dig with a wheelbarrow and shovel ... B)

Regarding the three point hitch and tractor frame strength. Is this possible to beef up during construction (adding stell to the frame) of the backhoe. Or is all this simply impractical and I should consider a bigger tractor. For me small is good. The smaller that I can get away with the better. I definitely want sufficient size to do the tasks described, but I'm thinking that with reduced size I can get in tight spaces while trenching, and transport issues are minimized.

If I were to look into a bigger tractor, how can I find out what my tractor is worth? I am finding very littel info on the web concerning the lawn chief brand.






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 06-02-2003, 06:17 Post: 56237
TomG

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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

I have a Ford 1710. They are classified as a compact and likely quite a bit bigger than your tractor. It was originally delivered without implements on a stake bed of a big Dodge with a stake bed on it--probably not much different than the truck you're thinking of. The trucker has used a flat bed trailer ever since though.

I think the trouble is going to be that the work you describe is going to take a hoe at least the size of mine to get it done adequately and that is going to take a tractor about the size of mine. Even a 6' hoe will take a long time to 6' dig 6' trenches and even more time if you can dump only to one side. You run out of reach and have to push back the piles with the bucket side. Many small hoes don't have full 180-degree swings, which makes the problem worse.

A belt driven pump is feasible and frame beefing is tricky but doable. However, when you're all done you still haven't got something that's actually designed as a tractor that weights enough and can use 3ph implements. One of the main reasons to buy a tractor is so you can buy 3ph implements.

My tractor is a bit over-sized for my on-going work and I still use a 12hp-riding mower for the lawn because it's faster than an oversized tractor would be. I still have enough snow blowing, grading, heavy lifting and digging to keep it busy enough to suit me.






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 06-02-2003, 08:25 Post: 56252
DeTwang



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

Thanks for the reply,

So, if yours is oversized and mine is undersized, what is the smallest I can get away with? What would be recommended?

I dont plan to have to dig the deep trenches too often, but 2 to 3 foot trenches could be a lot more common.

I notice the diggers from p f engineering offer 170 degrees of swing. Are the little cub and JD tractors they are using in these project photos still too small? Although they aren't really much more powerful engine wise, they do seem to be a little bigger and some have hydraulic take offs. There are quite a few for sale on ebay that are reasonably affordable, but I'm concerned about shipping charges.

I'm afraid the tractors in the size range (ford 1710) you're describing are going to be a bit too pricey (a quick search shows them in the $6k to $9k range) by the time I buy the loader ad hoes kits, the cost'll really be getting up there. Plus they might be a bear to transport by the time I add a loader/hoe.

I notice that I don't see any of these modified mini tractors for sale anywhere. I'm thinking that the only possible reason is that they are too new and there aren't many out there, they are so cool the owners don't want to let them go, or they are hardly ever finished enough to sell. I don't know which is the reason, but I'm hoping it's because they are too cool. ...B)

The other question I could use some feedback with is if the companies that sell these plans/kits will give me honest feedback to my questions or just say whatever they think I want to hear to make a sale. Any light that can be shed here also would be great.






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 06-02-2003, 09:22 Post: 56259
DRankin



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

As a point of reference, my Kubota BX22 tractor/loader/backhoe package weighs about 2600 pounds when fully assembled and is 14 feet long when rigged for transport.

BX22's can be purchased in Northern California/Nevada for around $16K and a thousand cheaper in Portland.

I know of no smaller TLB packages out there, though several are very close in dimensions and weight.

if you can, please provide the links for the machines you are looking at, they sound interesting.






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 06-02-2003, 09:53 Post: 56265
DeTwang



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

Hi,

$16k is way out of reach, and 14' is getting kinda big. 2600 lbs total weight is sounding promising though. If I can lop about 600-800 lbs off of that (which the smaller units might do), the back of stakebed transport idea might be feasible. B)

Here's some links


http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo4.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo2.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo3.html
http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/photo6.html
http://www.cadplans.com/
http://www.cadplans.com/customer.htm
http://www.cadplans.com/diggers.htm
http://www.cadplans.com/loaders.htm
http://www.metkit.com/
http://www.ubuilditplans.com/webpage4_page2.htm
http://www.how-to-plans.com/loader_plans.html
http://cdp-tractors.com/






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 06-02-2003, 10:22 Post: 56277
DeTwang



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

Hi Mark,

I just realized that you're talking about $16 for a brand new tractor with hoe and loader already built and attached.

How much can these tractors be had for used? I might be intersted in this route if I can get a bare bones tractor/loader for around $4k or so, and then add the backhoe myself.






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 06-02-2003, 10:36 Post: 56281
DRankin



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

I don't want to be the guy who bursts your bubble, but... you need visit a tractor dealer and drive something for reference.

I don't know how they manufactured some of the photo's on the PF web site but there is no garden tractor on earth that is going to lift a huge piece of metal with a jury rigged FEL and no rear ballast. My tractors are made for FEL's and would require about 800 to 1000 pounds of counterweight to haul something as heavy as that picture portrays.

I tried to use a two wheel drive garden tractor once to push freshly fallen snow and it was a miserable failure.

I currently have two 1500 pound compact tractors and the front loaders on either one are virtually useless if I try to operate them in two wheel drive. I cannot imagine how you will move dirt if you do not have the traction to drive the bucket into the pile.

I also have a small backhoe on the tractor I spoke of that has a 2600 pound equipped operating weight. If that tractor weighed less than it does the backhoe would simply jack the whole tractor off the ground instead of digging.

Though you can get by on very little horse power, you will need a minimum amount of mass (like a ton) in the tractor and its assembled components to do the work you plan.

You will not be happy with the performance of a riding mower rigged up with a FEL or a backhoe.






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 06-02-2003, 10:41 Post: 56283
DRankin



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 Build it yourself Loader Hoes

Ok... we are both e-mailing at the same instant.

Yes, 4wd, diesel, grey market or used tractors are available in the price range you stipulated. I will let someone else with more experience in that area jump in here.

There is a recent post by someone in the Northern Calif area who has just such a tractor for sale.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Back Hoe Forum

Thread 56125 Filter by Poster:
BillMullens 1 | DeTwang 9 | DRankin 6 | marklugo 1 | Murf 3 | p.f.eng. 3 | plots1 1 | TomG 3 | WillieH 1 |

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