Go Bottom3PH backhoe advice Liberty backhoe for JD5425
 | backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada 
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2012-08-04 184544
I'm looking at adding a 3PH backhoe to my 80 HP JD5425. The JD dealer locally has a JD49 for $11000 CDN. On the web, Liberty equipment (Mesa AZ) has an 8ft (with mechanical thumb and extra bucket, shipped) for $5300 USD.
I'm a first timer here, but need some advice. Anyone experienced Liberty backhoes? The super-sales guy says they're made in Arizona.
Thanks in advance.
Link: Liberty Backhoes
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2012-08-04 184546
I know nothing about Liberty backhoes but 3ph mounted hoes have caused a lot of damage on tractors. Subframe mounted hoes are much sturdier and spread the load across a much more substantial mount. And, of course, they are more expensive. It's not that 3ph backhoes cannot be used without damaging something but they are definitely more apt to cause damage than one with a subframe and they require a careful operator. ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-04 184547
Thanks kws. Where is the problem usually? I assume where they attach.
Is it therefore better to have a PTO pump hydraulics system on board the hoe? ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2012-08-04 184548
The problems depend on the tractor, hoe and 3ph strength but the simple ones are arms bending and breaking, and if they don't break castings sometimes break. Another problem operationally is that most hitches don't provide downforce so as you dig down the hitch wants to move up so I assume they have some method to restrain that movement which would shift the stress somewhere else. Regarding hydraulics, I'd look into getting some more valves built onto the tractor (JD probably sells additional SCVs that add right on) rather than an external pump, seems like it would be easier to hook up but I'm not sure about cost differences. ....
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 | DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2012-08-04 184550
When I started this board 14 years ago there was a lot of talk about 3ph backhoes. I remember Steve Carver -- a SC Kubota dealer reporting a death where the operator was crushed between the hoe console and the ROPS when the lift raised on a 3PH backhoe.
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-04 184551
Call me crazy. In1999, I spent 4+ months in hospital recovering from just such a near-death experience with a 3ph hoe that collapsed upward pinning me between the control box and the ROPS. Long ugly story. The hoses had been switch the day before to "make the digging more natural".
Critical: The ROPS has to be turned down/ taken off. And the 'no downward pressure 'cept for gravity' must be understood. I was ignorant. And very, very lucky.
Go figure - Now I want another hoe. Now on a bigger, heavier tractor.
My ex-wife who saved my life, would kill me. But I'm not so ignorant and am much more aware and careful. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-05 184553
BW Bob;
Welcome to the forum, good to have some new members, some of us old ones like me are getting a bit dim.
So far as three point mount hoes, I can probably find two or three without driving too far that hae been abandoned in the fencerow. For all the reasons given above they just haven't been too successfull.
I've got a Deere 4310 tractor, about half the size of your tractor with a Deere #48 backhoe attachment. It is connectd to the tractor with a subframe, the only time the three point is involved is to mount and dismount the hoe.
The subframe stays on the tractor and isn't in the way of any other attachments that I have. It's about a fifteen or twenty minute process to mount the hoe. The three point arms have to come off, that's the hardest part for me, but I am almost 71 so that might be the reason.
I've always been a believer in staying with the same brand attachments as the tractor for anything that is mounted directly to the tractor like loaders, backhoes, etc. The mounting points are in the proper place on the tractor frame to stand the strain, the hydraulics are meant to match, like flow rates, pressures, etc. So Deere tractor Deere loader, hoe, etc., Kubota tractor Kubota loader, hoe, etc.
Frank.
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 | auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-05 184555
I don't know Deeres as big as yours, but all the above comments sound right on. Hoes are marvellous so I don't mean to discourage you, only to expose the negatives too.
-They're the costliest attachment you can put on, and the most awkward to install, carry around, and detach, so consider alternatives like renting or hiring a dedicated machine.
-Of course you have a front loader; otherwise better get one.
-Hoes need considerable hydraulic capacity to operate their 6 or 8 cylinders, especially if the controls allow simultaneous use. Many tractors' pumps aren't up to the demand, and auxiliary pumps are costly.
-If your tractor does not have auxiliary hydraulic connections, better get an estimate for them too.
-Most seriously, the need for a subframe, I know one guy who's been hoeing off the rear hitch of his 22HP compact for 20 years with no problems. But I heard of another who was driving to his job-site when road-bumps shattered a lower control-arm on his hitch. And I fractured my frame (actually the bell-housing, which serves as a frame) pulling up with my loader, the same strain a hitch-hoe would impose. In short, seems it's fine to mount a hoe to your hitch if you have skill, luck, and medical coverage. ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-05 184557
Hardwood Frank and Auerbach: Many thanks for your wise counsel. Let me rethink this plan.
Such a good forum.
bob ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2012-08-05 184558
It's long been my advice to people thinking about a backhoe to not buy one unless they have several full days a months work for it.
The logic is simple, first, unless you use it that much, you won't be proficient with it. An inexperienced operator is far more likely to hurt themselves, their equipment or someone nearby. Second, unless you use it that much, it's cheaper to have a rental house drop you off a tracked mini-excavator. It will dig circles around a 3pth hoe, with no wear & tear on your equipment and your tractor is still free to work alongside the mini-ex.
BTW, welcome, and part of Cannuckistan?
Best of luck. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-05 184561
Murf;
I knew before I bought my hoe for the baby Deere that it had limitations. I've never had enough steady work to justify owning it, and have never went looking for custom work. It is just something I always wanted for the fun of having and using it.
Actually I have used it far more than I anticipated when bought it. I use it for piddly jobs that a man making a living with his machines wouldn't want to mess with, and I don't blame him, I wouldn't either.
I fully realize that I or my estate will never come close to recovering the cost of it, but that don't matter. Some folks want big expensive cars, motor homes, big boats, etc., and that's fine that is their business, but they too will never come close to recovering the first cost. I won't go into all the other rather high dollar machine tools I have around, just a hobby I guess.
Frank.
I've just always liked having machines to piddle with, they don't have to justify themselves ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-05 184564
Hey thanks fellow Canuckistani. What inspired me to consider another 3pth hoe was the $400 I paid a backhoe operator for 3 hours work pulling rocks. I have a lot of big rocks and a pond that needs them. Doing the math suggested the need to buy, instead of hire. Rental? Lot's to consider.
bwb ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-05 184567
BWBob;
Nothing wrong with renting a machine "IF" you can rent from a good rental concern. I had a couple bad experiences with rental, once with a trencher to bury some electric cable and another with a three point auger. Worst of the trencher deal was the electrician was charging me his hourly rate to help repair a rental trencher.
Both times I was sent home with machines that were "Ready to Go". I don't think the owner was a dishonest person but I do think his employee who was supposed to have things in shape to work was sleepong on the job. So I decided that if I have to repair things before I can use them they might as well be my own.
Frank. ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-06 184573
If it's about rock-moving, a grapple for your FEL (like a thumb on a hoe bucket) would work better than a standard hoe (but not better than a thumb-hoe), cost way less, and interfere with your machine less. But the operator's visibility of the business-end won't be as good as a hoe would allow. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-06 184576
Auerbach;
Yes, I have the four way bucket attachmnet for my loader and have often thought how handy a thunb would be on the hoe, but never got one yet.
And you are also right on the vision. It's hard to see what you are doing with the loader bucket, so a little guesswork comes into play too.
Frank. ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-06 184580
To see what I'm doing I've wondered about using a large mirror, mounted either on the tractor or standing behind the rock or whatever. But I always find that the reason my brilliant ideas are not in use is that they don't work. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2012-08-07 184588
Far be it from me to get between a man and his toy ..... errrr, I mean TOOL collection.
But practicality and desire are two very different creatures.
If the rocks are on surface, the best way we've found to pick them up and move them around is pallet forks, adjust them to just narrower than the rock and scooping them up is easy. Plus you have good visibility if it has an open framework. It also doesn't pick up a bunch of dirt with them, or scrape them all up and leave white marks if they are to be used as ornamental pieces later.
Best of luck. ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-07 184589
My stones are BIG (so to speak). I need to dig around them to free them. Some are more than the FEL can handle, but most are movable. I have forks and will try them. I also have trenching and stumps to dig. I have a lot of acres only because of the stone content - farmer's nightmare.
bwb ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-07 184594
Confucious say man with big stones should have own backhoe. ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-08 184595
I'm pretty confucioused most of the time. Got a call today from the fella in Mesa very anxious to sell me a Liberty hoe ($5000+). And one from a local dealer of Wallenstein hoes (Canadian made, $10,000 with hydraulic thumb - comes in green!). I've attached the promo video link for the latter.
Anyone know anything about Liberty?
bwb ....
Link: Wallenstein hoe pitch
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-08 184597
BWB;
I think like refigerators, kitchen stoves, furnaces, etc., that two or three companies make 99% of all the shortline hoes. They paint them whatever color you like and call them Liberty, and lots of other brand names. I think if one took the time to really look them over you would find a Liberty to be identicfal to several other brands.
Frank. ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-08 184598
I bet Deere, Kubota, and Kioti buy their hoes from one of these firms. Don't know Liberty, but Wallenstein is nearby, they've been making attachments for over a generation, and have a good reputation.
I doubt the extra security from buying one that says Deere on it is worth double the price. Maybe you could see if a Deere dealer has one on the lot that you could test, and then trailer your tractor to the one for sale for a comparison trial. A Liberty hoe plus a JD subframe would cost less than a JD hoe.
Should mention that if stumps responded well to small hoes (or anything else) there'd be fewer of them around. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2012-08-08 184599
I hate to throw a monkey wrench in all this good thinking, again, but here goes anyways.
If you're prepared to spend $5k - $10k for a backhoe, why not 'biggie size' it?
That much coin would get you a pretty good-sized older TLB or excavator that your grandchildren couldn't wear out or hurt.
Believe me, when it comes to boulders or stumps, size DOES matter.
I pull stumps out by just grabbing them and yanking up with my full-size TLB (20,000 pounds, see my pics) that would be the best part of an afternoons work with a small machine.
In fact in your part of the world lots of farms have them sitting around suntannning after clearings fence rows etc.
Best of luck. ....
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| backwoodsbob
Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Alberta Canada
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2012-08-08 184600
Maybe that's what I should be looking at - a used back hoe tractor. What's a 'TLB'?
Trouble is, I'm not a diesel Mr. Fixit. Nor a Mr. Judge-it at an auction sale. How to know you're not buying a pig-in-a-poke.
Thanks for pointing out there are pictures here.
bwb ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2012-08-08 184601
BWB;
I "Think" TLB stands for Tractor-Loader-Backhoe, but I've been wrong before too.
Before I bought the Little Deere hoe I did go used backhoe shopping. I'll admit to not being an expert used backhoe inspector, but when most of the low dollar machines were sitting in a puddle of hydraulic fluid so they turned me away.
Frank. ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2012-08-08 184602
Tractor/Loader/Backhoe.
Unless maybe at an equipment auction, you should be able to give it a good workout. Having the manuals (operators, service, parts) or knowing where to get them, can make a major difference. Sounds like most of your needs are one-time ones, so you can sell it when done.
These machines are rugged and designed to last forever. But nothing actually does, and repairs can be costly, so luck does play a part. You might hire an equipment mechanic to scope one out for you, and test it beforehand. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2012-08-08 184603
I've had pretty good luck buying from local farmers, they know what needs fixing right off, and what can wait till a free day out of busy season.
Ask around too, local dealers especially have a good handle on both who looks after their stuff, and who has something for sale.
Best of luck. ....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2012-08-13 184638
Do not over look the brand names own for sale sites. Some give a warranty and they have their reputation on the line about what claims they make on the machine.
For my nickel would stay away from auctions. I have been to many mostly if not all for implements and yet to think they sold reasonable. Had tractor salesman years ago warned me on that and think his advice has proven good.
At same time your providence may have a publication for such as farmers selling their own equipment.
When I first went looking for excavator a few years back got a retired friend of mine who owned several machines while in business to test the machine for me. That was very wise. It cost me his lunch and got to visit with a grood friend. ....
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