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AV8R
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2004-03-09          79344

Had anyone heard or read anything about the Jeep Liberty Diesel to be available this fall(2004)? Last I heard was a Daimler 2.5L turbo 4-cyllinder. Really interested, but all I ever get from dealers is the blank "100 Yard Stare" followed by a heavy pitch to the V-6 gas (yuck!).

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kwschumm
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2004-03-09          79346

I haven't heard of it but, boy, am I interested! Need a new vehicle for my wife, and we were interested in a liberty but the mileage on the gas version is horrible. ....

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grinder
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2004-03-10          79405

You might try motor trend web page.
They have a section on the autoshows
new products. ....

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Paladin
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-03-10          79457

I spotted this thread and would just caution you guys to think it through. About 10 yrs ago I bought a VW Quantum turbo diesel for the same reasons you cite. The gas alternative was the Audi 5 cyl shoehorned into the "big" VW (the Quantum was the biggest model they made back then). For some reason the european 4 cyl gas motor was not being imported. The good news was that I got 36-38 MPG until the day that I had it towed to the junkyard. The bad news was: pathetic acceleration, the need to coach the whole family on dosing the gas with anti-gel and/or kerosene in the winter and, finally, the ridiculous cost of an engine major when it needed one at 145,000 miles. I junked it instead. Nobody really wanted to work on the diesel. The dealer quoted a ridiculous price for a rebuilt motor - basically "get lost". No local mechanic wanted to touch the diesel.
With rumblings about a Chrysler/Daimler breakup again, my worry on the Jeep would be about future service on the engine.

....

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Peters
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2004-03-10          79482

I believe AV8R said he had a Diesel Jetta already. I took a new Beetle TDI with 5sp for a drive. Not really slow.
Ken and AV8R I believe the SAE link has what you are looking for.
Eric ....


Link:   Liberty Diesel

 
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AV8R
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2004-03-11          79592

Paladin: sorry for your bad experience. Please don't let that sour you on considering a diesel in the future!! They have come so far since then! My TDI is such a great little car (45-50mpg and all the power needed to go 100+ mph). Yes the older ones have trouble getting out of their own way, but my 86 still gets 40+ mpg at 250k miles!

I hope that Jeep does this diesel, I will buy one at least!

Check my site for my diesel collection. Look for the link on to how to run vegtable oil in a diesel motor. Not biodiesel, but regular veggie oil! If Detroit would get in on this it could help out so many farmers and we could thumb our noses at OPEC!! ....


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Paladin
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2004-03-12          79645

Actually, I was kind of fond of the Quantum. You can't beat 36-38 MPG. My kids still have fun recollections of fueling at the truck stops in between the 18 wheelers and it only waxed up on me once. I am close to buying a diesel tractor right now. The Quantum had a lot of good miles left in it with maybe one tiny rust spot on the body, the nice VW alloy sport wheels and new rubber. The independent guy that I use for my German cars said flatly that he would slap a new head on it but nothing more. The VW dealer quoted me thousands for a rebuilt engine and then ushered me into the showroom and said "trading it really is the smart thing to do".

You are right - it's a different story in Europe. You see diesel Audis and Benz's all the time. We just need to get use to working on them over here. You can't beat the MPG. ....

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k9fletch
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2004-03-12          79655

I havn't seen much, Jeep has a diesel in europe same as the Liberty called the "Cherokee?" with a Benz engine. The only info that we are getting around Detroit is that they will only be making about 5000 for the first year of release. They also are stating that it will have 15% better fuel economy. (Better than what? the six cyl. gas?) The engine is a Chrysler 2.5L turbo with common rail injection system.

The Big Three is still believing that most of the US population won't want a Diesel because of noise and smoke etc. I think I also heard that Benz is also going to rerelease their big touring sedan in diesel in the US market this fall. ....

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Peters
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2004-03-12          79692

According to the data in the SAE article the increase in fuel economy is 30%. I doubt their is much difference between the 4 and 6 in fuel economy if it is anything like the YJ.
From what I see the fuel economy goes from 22 to 29 highway.
Peters ....

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k9fletch
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2004-03-14          79810

Peters, I didn't see that Link you had posted, good information, Infact it even got a lot attention from my BIL who works at DCX North America. I guess several of the employees in his unit have been showing intrest in the D-Liberty but not much info is out, even to the employees and dealers. ....

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Peters
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2004-03-14          79833

As a member of SAE I knew where to look. If you want more information I would keep an eye on that site as the Automotive SAE magazine normally releases info months or years before the other auto mag. ....

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AV8R
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2004-03-14          79853

Peters: If you could please keep an eye out for me (us?) I would greatly appreciate it. I knew someone around this site had to have an inside look on Detroit!! ....

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kwschumm
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2005-02-08          105726

It's going on a year since this thread was started, and now the Jeep Liberty Diesels are on the street. Has anyone driven one yet? I'd be interested in knowing impressions and other scuttlebutt that might be circulating about it. ....

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Chief
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2005-02-08          105728

I was all excited about them until I found out that the only transmission available for them is an automatic. In my opinion, that totally defeats the purpose of an SUV and a diesel. If and when Jeeps comes out with a manual 5 or 6 speed transmission for the Liberty CRD; I may take another look. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-08          105732

The auto is the 5-speed auto from the Grand Cherokee. It is a good tranny and will fit well with the CRD.

I would debate the merits of an auto behind a turbo-diesel with you Randy. The auto allows boost levels to stay up without having to drop all boost for every shift of a manual. That being said, my Cummins and both VWs are 5-speeds because the autos available in those applications are not up to par. But, for street driving and towing, I feel an auto-tranny would be better.

Here is a non-diesel person's reaction to driving the CRD.
....


Link:   Jeep forum

 
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AV8R
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2005-02-08          105733

Here's another long diatribe. ....


Link:   Jeep Forum

 
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Chief
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2005-02-08          105756

My suspicion is that this diesel engine has been detuned for the 5 speed automatic much like Dodge detuned the Cummins behind the 47RE. An automatic pretty much also rules out any possibility of an exhaust brake although on a vehicle that small it would be arguable whether it is practical. It also pretty much rules out any modifications to the engine for a little extra torque and hp. An automatic transmission is not capable of holding a gear at full throttle or any degree of load without either hunting for gears or over revving the engine. The manual trans. allows the driver to select the gear he or she wants and maximizes the torque curve and output of the engine to its optimum use in my opinion. Not very many road tractors out there with automatics. They just don't and never will hold up behind a diesel with any degree of heavy use. I agree that they might be nice to drive in traffic for light duty use but the owner will be seriously eating brake shoes and limited in the vehicles use. I'm gonna wait for the manual trans. ....

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Chief
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2005-02-08          105757

Thanks for the Jeep forum links! Those were pretty interesting to read and get others impressions. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-08          105758

My Cummins brother wrote:

"An automatic transmission is not capable of holding a gear at full throttle or any degree of load without either hunting for gears or over revving the engine."

I believe that a PROPERLY matched engine/tranny/software will easily do this.

"Not very many road tractors out there with automatics."

Apples and oranges. OTR trucks are designed for sustained same speed operation and efficiency, not acceleration.

"They just don't and never will hold up behind a diesel with any degree of heavy use."

Lots of buses, dump-trucks, and cement mixers are.

I agree hand shakers are alot more fun, (if it were my Libby, not the wife's, I would want the 5 or 6 shooter too!) but for this application, an auto is the way to go for 95% of the buyers. ....

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Chief
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2005-02-08          105764

The key phrase you mentioned was "PROPERLY matched engine/tranny/software". I have yet to see one manufactured by an OEM one of the big 3 auto manufacturers. They can be modified at great expense but there goes the warranty.

"Lots of buses, dump-trucks, and cement mixers are." Not from what I have seen in our county school motorpool garage or during my 21 years with Uncle Sammy in Army motorpools. Although the Army goes with automatic because the soldiers tear up manuals MUCH faster do to negligence.

I would agree with you that for 95% of the buying public that auto trans. is probably the best bet but not for me.

It looks like we agree but see it from somewhat different angles. ;o)
....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-02-08          105784

I was never fond of my cummins with the autos. I bought them used at a very good price so no choice. My dad bought his new with 5 speed and it is good, better with 6 speed. Perhaps if Jeep could come up with a tranny like VW's tiptronic? Choose either full auto or manual shift that holds each gear. I have a friend that drives a tri-axle and that is all he does. He always has a nice newer spotless machine. He is anal about it, but his new one is the automatic type with buttons on the wheel to shift up and down. He is definitly not one to give up power or performance. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-02-08          105789

I was thinking of a diesel Liberty for my wife, who desperately needs a new vehicle. We have always driven sticks, and we both prefer them, but she is having some severe back problems and several doctors said that operating a clutch is terrible for a bad back. I think that she'd want an auto, but the harder thing would be to convince her to downsize her performance expectations. She drives like Mario. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-08          105791

I wanna drive one before I make any comment on performance. Stats look good, tho-- ....

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kwschumm
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2005-02-08          105792

Yeah, but anything she gets will be compared to her Taurus SHO which is a sleeper ROCKET. ....

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yooperpete
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2005-02-09          105809

Ken if you're looking for a nice comfortable car, with stick shift and some spunk, one of my co-workers has a Cadillac CTS-V for sale. It is all black, has the Vette motor in it with 6-speed manual. It barely has any miles on it and is really clean. They are kinda expensive thought! ....

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kwschumm
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2005-02-09          105810

Thanks Pete, but I'll never buy another GM. ....

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greg_g
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2005-02-09          105811

FWIW, I've owned turbo-diesel autos with both manual and automatic trannys. I always had to watch the tach on the manual, or I'd float the valves up near red line. 250K on the automatic now, never floated the valves once.

Don't know if this is an indicator of a good thing, or a bad thing. But having to pay attention - or float - was aggravating.

//greg// ....

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yooperpete
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2005-02-09          105812

Another vehicle that diesel lovers may look for is a Mercury Meta that is coming. It is the Mercury version of the new Ford Station Wagon type SUV. I understand it will be a diesel/electric hybrid vehicle. I read somewhere that it will put out 400 lb.ft. of torque in combined drive modes.

In our area, the dealers don't have a diesel Liberty in stock. I drove the regular version and didn't care for it that much. I thought the Ford Escape in the '05 model had more room, better mileage and had a good feel when driving it and with a quiet ride. They made lots of changes from the '04 model. The Escape also has a better crash test rating than the Liberty.

I'm not sold on the idea of a diesel vehicle outside of a big truck and tractor. Definitely will give the Liberty diesel a fair test drive when they are available. ....

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denwood
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2005-02-09          105858

Not sold on the idea of a diesel in what? That is just because we live in America. If you were from anywhere overseas you might be saying "I'm not sold on the idea of a gas engine outside of a push mower and a weed wacker." I'd buy a diesel motorcycle if they had them. We love our VW jetta diesel. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-09          105862

"...I'd buy a diesel motorcycle if they had them..."

WHOOOO-HOOOO!! Sign me up!! ....

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Murf
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2005-02-10          105876

I've ridden a diesel motorcycle, they're pretty difficult to get your head around.

You don't use the throttle to change your road speed, you shift gears.

It was exceptionally stable feeling to ride though, it had a flywheel that probably weighed as much as the average compact car, when it was spinning the centrifugal force made the bike feel like it was sitting on 4 wheels instead of just 2.

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-02-10          105880

I don't think I want a motorcycle that won't wheelie. Then again, popping the clutch with that big flywheel spinning would probably tend to pull the front up easily. And the extra stability from the flywheel would allow longer wheelies too. I could be a diesel squid!
Dave ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-10          105881

My buddy used to have a Honda with a 5x2 trans in it. (CB900?)

Just imagine a turbo v-twin diesel with a "Road Ranger" 10-speed, blowin' black smoke out a 3" pipe, 240mm rear tire, fat boy front end, 5 gallon 'bobs, ... ! Hmmmm... I'll be in the garage if you need me. ....

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Murf
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2005-02-10          105883

AV8R, your description sounds interesting, but in most parts of the world where they look to motorcycles as a staple of transportation, economy is the driving factor, not performance.

The one I drove in Scandanavia was about 25hp if I remeber correctly, because of the torque & heavy flywheel it was definitely capable of some serious accelleration, provided you could shift it fast enough, LOL.

However, the vast majority of diesel motorcycles are 'factory' frames with an air-cooled diesel implant. Most of them are in the 6 - 10 hp range. Probably the most common one is made in India, it is an Enfield 350 frame with a 6.5 hp Robin diesel engine. Oddly enough the call that model "The Bullet", mind you I think the only thing it could 'whiz past' would be a gas pump ... they get about 150 mpg !!

The other factor is purely one of adaptation, like in Australia where it may be a long way between places. The range of one of these things is incredible, and a simple motorcycle is a very dependable means of transport. Cheap long distance transport is often the deciding factor in even going.

As an aside, speaking of economy, there is an old timer I see every now & then in The Bahamas, he is a 'retired' merchant seaman. He built a traditional Bahamian wooden fishing boat when he first retired. He powered it with a 20 hp air-cooled diesel. After it was done he would go 'island hopping' with it, soon people were paying him take take stuff here & there in it. He thinks nothing of making trips of hundreds of miles in it, solo, on a regular basis. He routinely takes people from the outer islands to Cuba for free medical treatment.

This is a 30' open boat, with a 20 hp air cooled one cyclinder engine!!!!

As he puts it, "All it takes is a little time & fuel, I got lots of both!"

Best of luck. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-10          105894

Murf, you've got such neat stories! ;0) ....

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Murf
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2005-02-10          105899

An old Irish tradition.........

Sure beat watching TV as a kid sitting around the fireplace listening to the older folks telling us stories of the past.

Man I miss my grandfather.

Come to think of it, I think that old fart has the right idea, I know he thinks what we do in life is pretty crazy. He told me one time that an office, a telphone and a computer would kill a person. Not that I think he had anything to do with it, but I had a near fatal heart attack less than 2 years later.

Travel, it's the best education you will EVER get.

Best of luck. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-17          106306

Here we go!! TDI on 2 wheels! ....


Link:   Diesel Motorcycle

 
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shortmagnum
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2005-02-17          106309

200 ft lbs of torque!! Compare that to the 75 ft lbs put out by a 1200 cc Harley. The weight isn't unreasonable for a sport type bike either. It's only about 100 lbs heavier than a typical 1 liter replica racer. Maybe only 20 HP less too.
Dave ....

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