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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-10-13          66144

The WSJ had a small article today about SUV safety. With all the televised stuff about SUV roll-over, you would think that you are riding around on a can of gasoline with a lit match just waiting for a disaster. It seems that the data show something different.

Overall car safety showed 138 deaths per million registered cars and SUVs were at 140; about the same. Big SUVs over 5000 pounds had a rate of only 92 deaths per million.(The safest of all vehicles, period.) Small economy cars that the go'ment wants us all to drive topped out the list at 249 deaths per million.


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Chief
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2003-10-13          66153

Mike, Arianna Huffington will be stalking you for posting that. ;-) ....

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drcjv.
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2003-10-13          66155

AC the day after my duaghter was born I bought an expedition to wrap her in as much steel as possible, some stats say there are more fatalities in crashes involving large SUVs. That's right what they don't say is the fatality is in the smaller vehicle. Seven years later and now i'm on my third expedition. Tried an H2 for a couple of days but, believe it or not they are not as big on the inside as an expedition. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-13          66162

There is something to be said for mass, the trouble is the cars are smaller and SUV's are bigger. If you drive a SUV like it is a car then someone may get hurt, although it may not be you.
I have always figured the best compromise was a Volvo, built like a truck, but the economy of a car. I am not sure the new ones are as tough though. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66199

I am not trying to convince anyone to buy a big SUV if they are not inclined to make the purchase. If you choose to buy a big vehicle and are involved in a wreck and someone dies; each one of us has to deal with that in our own way. What I am trying to do is point out the overall safety record, when the government and press seem to want to make SUVs sound like deathtraps ready to roll over if they hit a pebble on the road.

In my particular case, I have been hit several times by drunk or inattentive drivers. They have never significantly damaged my large vehicles. On the other hand, I have not had a citation in so long that I don't even remember when. It has certainly been over 15 years. I have never been at fault in an accident.

In one case, I had to stop for freeway traffic and I saw the idiot coming at me from behind not even paying attention to what was going on ahead of him. I put my head back against the rest, braced my arms on the wheel and waited to get hit. He put on his brakes just a few feet before hitting me. He slid under my GMC Sierra 4X4 and did virtually no damage. I drove home. He did not because of car damage. I don't feel the least bit guilty about having the large vehicle. If I had been in a very small car, I might be dead. (Not PC, not dead...both good things.)

As the Hummer commercial says, "Slip into something a little more metal!" BTW, my H2 is averaging almost 14 MPG in everyday driving. It gets much better gas milage than my 1992 GMC Pickup which no one picks on as a gas hog.
....

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Blueman
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2003-10-14          66201

I know AC has a TC45 like myself,and drcjv has a Boomer and an Expedition (like my wife), so I felt compelled to respond. I have her driving the Expedition, because, well, her "driving record" isn't spectacular, and my boys and future daughter are riding around with her most of the time. I sleep better at night, knowing I've got them in one of the safer vehicles around. I drive a Jetta TDI to help "off set" the poor economy of the Expedition. Too bad Ford doesn't put a Powerstoke in that Expedition, at a reasonable cost. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-14          66206

Mike, I was just kidding you about the Arrianna Huffington thing. I love all 7,200 lbs. of my Dodge Cummins pickup around me and my family as well. I talked to the wife about a Power Stroke powered Excursion as well but she did not like it and Ford has lost their mind on what they charge for it. (well over $50,000) That and the piss poor quality Ford puts out.

If it were up to me most of the idiots I see on the road would not have a driver's license. Constantly yapping on the cell phone, drunks, weaving in and out of traffic, living in the left lane, slam on the brakes first and then the turn signal to turn. I could go on for hours. Driving is a privelidge NOT a right. When the insurance companies and law enforcement start going after these folks for wreckless driving and vehicular homicide, then the problem will turn around. Until then, I want LOTS of steel and iron around my family and I. I am like Mike, haven't had a ticket in over 15 years or been at fault (knock on wood) but I want the protection. So I enjoy hearing from Arrianna and her claim that I support terrorist by driving a SUV or large vehicle. I wonder what she drives and flys around in??????? ;-) OK, I had my rant, I'm done now! Boy do I feel better!!!! ;-) Think I'll go outside and start up the Cummins and the John Deere just to make me feel better and make a little smoke. ;-) ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66207

Chief, I know you were kidding. Any sentence containing Ms. Huffington's name probably has to be some sort humorous comment. We have kidded about Ms. H before, and this probably won't be the last time, either.

Another thing that I remember from a long time ago is that the cost to repair a Big SUV or pickup after a wreck was generally less than other vehicles. I am sure that this takes into account the amount of overall damage.

Another report that I heard recently on TV news said that some automobile owners are trying to get insurance rates for SUV owners to be higher because of the "higher cost to repair." The automobile owners claim that they are subsidizing the SUV owners. Apparently some insurance companies are following this trend. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-14          66211

Mike, I figured you knew I was teasing you but just didn't want anyone else who read the thread to think so. Did not want to be responsible for a food fight. ;-) You're right about Arrianna and she needs to work on the beer gut too. ;-) ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66213

Peters,
A Volvo is a good car. To some degree getting larger vehicles is sort of like an arms race, but it is essentially impossible to make all vehicles have the same bumper height and certainly not the same mass. There is just no way to make semi's, military vehicles, and construction equipment that share the same roads as the cars to be 100% compatible. I would never modify a vehicle by raising my 4X4 or lowering a car for street use.

As far as the H2 is concerned, it does share some production parts with the Yukon, Suburban, and other GMC vehicles. But the characterization of a sheep is wolve's clothing is not correct. The ways that those production parts are employed and mixed with new parts make all the difference. Ground clearance, wheel travel, wheel base, suspension geometry, and other critical aspects are very different from the Suburban. I think that the Suburban is a great vehicle, but it is for a different use.

I have been involved in off-road racing for nearly 25 years. I have taken the H2 through some rough terrain in Southeastern Utah near Moab. Those GMC production parts and construction techniques keep the cost down, but it is a very capable vehicle. The H1 is slightly better in my opinion off-road, but the H2 is a better overall vehicle, since even off-roaders spend most of their time on roads. The off-road specification is identical for both vehicles and they run on the same test track in Indiana.

I have built off-road vehicles including pre-runners, motorcycles, and Class V Baja Bugs from scratch. I am also an engineer. I have a Class V Bug in my shop right now that will go places that an H1 or H2 cannot cross. It can do that because the tires are big compared to its light mass, but I certainly would not want to be in a head-on collision with it. Even though it has a three loop roll cage, fuel cell, 5 pt harnesses it still does not have the mass to keep the driver from experiencing fatal levels of mechanical shock in a collision.

Unfortunately, the state where I live is in the top few for being the worst for drunk drivers. There are drivers here with as many as 28 DWIs and they are still driving. They have found ways around every precaution and penalty that the state takes to get them off the road. The statistics are such that at any given time someone on the road in my direct line of sight is drunk. Now, if you add others that are high on Methamphetimine, you have a real circus. If I can take measures to make sure that I am not a victim of this, I certainly will. It is not me that you would need to worry about on the roads, here.

What I don't have an answer for is how you keep the drunks and other impaired people off of the roads and out of large SUVs where they are likely to kill someone if they don't get stopped. Making the SUVs more carlike doesn't solve that problem or help the victims. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66214

Randy, surely Arrianna's gut is from champaigne and not beer. If she spent more time climbing in and out of a tall SUV, she might work some of that off. ;-) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-10-14          66222

Crash of the Titans. A great example of how plenty of steel around you can let you walk away. I am surprised nobody was killed in this accident just because of the head on sudden stoppage. In view of how severe the crash was, it looks like both vehicles held up pretty well. Anyhow, it was an interesting article. I can't imagine what it must have cost to repair the Hummer if it was even possible. ....


Link:   Hummer wreaks rush-hour chaos

 
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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66225

That was over a year ago in Mark's old neighborhood. Pretty amazing. I saw an H2 that was rolled off-road. It crushed the front right side, hood and windshield, but it was still driving. (not as bad as this picture)

There was a lot of damage up high on the H2, so bumper mismatch seems not to have been a factor. The hood is reinforced plastic like the fenders on my tractor. Do you think that the driver would have been treated and released if he had been driving a sports car when he had his seizure?? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-10-14          66227

Maybe it's just me, but that Goat Truck in the background doesn't seem to be any worse off than the Hummer....

Still, bigger IS better, REALLY big is better still....

Best of luck. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66229

Murf, do you think that the four or five vehicles that the H2 hit before that had any "impact" on that? ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-10-14          66232

About ten years ago I bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee for my wife who was having our first child. It made sense then to carry the Kids and dog and stuff plus the safety factor and winter traction. A Jeep was pretty big then, not so now!

My last car was my 1996 Honda Accord. By 2000 the number of really big SUV 's like the Expedition, Excursion, Yukon..... was so dense where I live that driving in that little Accord was no longer a pleasurable experience.

My typical trip would have someone with questionable driving skills right on my tail while they chatted on the phone or did their makeup, or shouted at the their kids or had the Dog in their lap. Pulling over to let them pass did not work either because they would then drive slower in front of you than you were driving in the first place, or the next SUV would get on your tail. The other thing is that most SUV lights are so much higher off the ground having one behind a car is very uncomfortable to the driver.

I am not a slow driver either, it is just that the style here in NJ is to Tail Gate, it does not necessarily mean that the person behind you wants to pass all the time either.

I got rid of the Honda in 2000 replacing it with the Toyota Tundra. I have not had the angst that I used to have with the Honda. I miss the better mileage, but fortunately I am putting less miles on the Truck than I used on the Accord.

Bigger is Better as far I am concerned, until the government coerces everyone to be smaller.

Dennis
TractorPoint ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-14          66233

When we moved to NM, my wife had an Olds Cutlass that was coming off of a lease. We replaced that with a Pontiac Bonneville. After about a year of driving the Bonneville, my wife said that she thought it was "too big" and she wanted a Jeep. I still had my 1992 GMC pickup and that was even bigger.

Bottom line is that I bought the Jeep for her, but it had to have the big tires, upgraded tranny and differential and so forth. She likes it, but it is a little small for me.

I ended up driving the Bonneville for the three remaining years of its lease. I liked the car. I did not like driving it in traffic for the same reasons that Dennis mentioned. Someone must have been smiling down on me, because in every event when I have been hit by a drunk or inattentive driver, I was in my truck. I did better than 75% of my driving in the car.

I always liked my truck, but the Bonneville got better gas milage by far and my wife was not going to drive it. You get raped when you try to turn in a lease car early. But as Dennis said, headlights from trucks and tailgaters always caused an undue amount of stress while driving the car. There are a lot of accidents around here involving semi-trucks. We are at the intersection of two major interstates and there is a lot of long haul traffic.

I drove the Bonneville until the lease was up about a year ago. When I went to the dealership to turn it in, a new shipment of H2s was coming off the truck. I had already looked at other SUVs and was really considering a Cadillac car, but I liked the H2 and went in that direction.

I feel safer in the SUV. The numbers tend to back up that feeling of safety. I expect that I would be better off in a collision, but there are no winners in a wreck.
....

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Chief
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2003-10-14          66235

OK, OK, OK.........if your promise not to snicker and laugh too much; I'll tell ya what I drive around locally. This can substitute for the joke o the day. ;-)

I don't really use it that much any more since I retired. It was my commuter car. I drove about 75 - 80 miles a day back and forth to work and it got me 32 mpg. I have had it for going on 17 years and she is still kickin'. It is a 1987 Nissan Pulsar NX SE. A little 2 door hatch back 2 seater with a joke fold down rear seat and hatch back. It was a bad little machine when it was new. It has a 1.6L DOHC 112 hp engine that red lines at 7200 rpm and it would do over 130 mph new on the Autobahn. (the speedo stops at 130 but the needle would keep going to the trip odometer reset and stop) ;-) (I bought it in Germany while stationed there where everyone has a puddle jumper car)

She would rap up to about 7300 rpms in 5th gear going down hill and I could draft the Porche's or BMW's and hull butt and hang with them for a little while! She is kinda tired now but still runs pretty good for almost 150,000 miles. I would NEVER want to hit ANYTHING in this car as it would fold up like a paper cup. It would be a death trap in any kind of collision.

With a wife and 3 little girls I much prefer the Dodge Cummins. I hate to sell the Nissan cause it is so old , it is not worth anything but it still runs good so it is worth it to me to just keep running it until it dies. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-14          66249

Bigger is safer for you if you are driving, but the statistic also say they are a hazard for the person in the smaller car.
The large SUV has become like the large station wagon of old, the family lugger. To a certain extent the engineering is the same and we have moved to the same vehicles our father's drove only with slightly different bodies. Unfortunately the driving skills do not match the mass.
When I was young I lived in an area where the roads were like the California. The rod rodders (car boys) tended to get a car souped up and then proceed to place it in the ditch. It never made sense to me to build a quarter miler in an area where the only straight paved flat quarter mile had hair pin turns at either end. To this end we went the road race route. Going fast made no sense unless you could negociate the next corner.
My 544 s with ported B20 would walk almost any car, cornered well and topped 130. Including stops for gas. I travelled from Terrace to Vancouver once in 12 hours (Mark). We would race at Westwood or the Boundary Bay Airport. In MA I worked with a friend on VSCCA MG cars and raced them on the track.
In 97 I bought a new Ford truck with the extra cab. I drove it a while and then I remember thinking this thing drives like a car. Then it hit me I had bought my fathers Crown Vic.
Like Chief I drive the Ram 3500 on distance trips. Only the truckers argue with me as most SUVs are smaller than the beast. Still it gets 20 miles to the gallon, better than the SUV and more useful to me. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-15          66290

Peters, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your last post.

My first "project" car was an Olds 442. When new, it was fast, but did not corner well. In college, I took classes in automotive engineering and modified the car for different suspension geometry and got it handling pretty well for the day. The motor and transmission were pretty good from the factory. We actually tested this car on a track layed out in a parking lot for my classes. I wrote a number of papers about the project.

During the 1980s I had a modified Mazda RX7. That was my basic street car. I am glad that I never had a wreck in that thing. The body panels were about as heavy as a soda can. Some of my friends set a land speed record at the Bonneville dry lakebed with their similarly modified RX7. Driving motorcycles gave me a different perspective about traffic and collisions, so I drove the Mazda defensively. I satisfied any "need for speed" that I might have had on a race track and flying small airplanes.

My offroad days started with motorcycles in 1972 and progressed to off-road cars and trucks after a pretty severe crash in an off-road motorcycle race in the California Desert. (I raced unlimited class bikes) Ultimately my off-roading turned into racing with a team in Baja California Mexico in the Baja 500 and 1000 races. I was also a professional off-road guide in Baja.

The suspensions on today's SUVs allow them to handle better on the street than my Olds 442 did when it was new. But, they still have a high center of gravity and if someone gets into them and attempts to drive them like a sports car, they are going to get hurt. I am generally not in favor of heavily modified vehicles any more. For cars, the most noticable mods seem to be on the engines and it is easy to over-power and out-drive the supsensions and safety equipment. The teenager that bought my Olds ended up killing himself in it; street racing. The guy that bought my Mazda gave it to his teenage son who totaled it within the first year that he had it; again street racing. These are the same streets that you and I drive on everyday.

People that modify trucks generally are after a "look" more than they are after some performance increase. In my experience, many of the trucks with the "look" do not perform as well as they should and generally the suspension modifications tend to degrade handling on newer vehicles. Most people just do not know how to set up the suspension correctly and bolt on parts are rarely selected and used in the correct ways.

I don't think that the answer to the safety question is to make the SUVs car-like. If the market wanted car-like SUVs, then the station wagon would still be popular. In my opinion the station wagon has largely been replaced by the Minivan and to a lesser degree by the SUV.

No matter what you drive, there will always be a larger vehicle that will fair better in a crash. You cannot eliminate trains, commercial trucks, military vehicles and construction equipment from crossing or using roads. But, I do have a choice on the type of vehicle that I drive, and that is often the only choice that is really available. Part of the answer may be to make the smaller vehicles more crash worthy, but as you said in an earlier post, people don't wear seatbelts like they should. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-15          66323

I guess everyone saw the footage of the IRL crash on the weekend. It is just incredable that the driver survived and a testiment to the crash protection that is placed into these vehicles.
I am not a big fan of making a truck into a car. Personally I miss the rubber mats.
I am not sure what the attaction to large SUV's are. I guess if I had use for one, I might look at a small Defender or Jeep. Did own one in my younger days and used it to go skiing etc. But a well balanced rear wheel drive will get you most places you need to go on the road.
Where I off roaded, size was a problem as most of the roads quckly become over grown in the north west.
When I worked for the forest service I got stuck with a long box crew cab. The number of times we had to inch the thing around to try and turn around on a tight trail, never again. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-17          66490

Long wheelbase vehicles have always had an issue with tight steering and potentially high centering.

The fastest racers in the Baja races are the two wheel drive custom built off-road cars. Four wheel drive always does well, but it is not generally the fastest. They don't generally mention that the Toyotas and other trucks shown in the commercials are 2WD when they are trying to sell you a new truck. But these race vehicles can cost up to $500K and have little in common with a production vehicle.

When I checked the specs on the H2, I believe that it was 9 inches shorter than a GMC Yukon. It is wider by about 5 inches. The wheels are also moved out near the corners of the vehicle to allow for good approach and departure angles. ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-10-17          66493

Just curious, on the Hummer the engine is in the middle of the pasenger compartment, where is the engine on the H2? ....

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Peters
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2003-10-17          66512

Dennis on the Hummer the engine is back closer to the center but not between the front seats. The drive train is in this area so that you can not damage it even if you get high centered. The wheels are geared like front of a CUT to place the drive train higher and provide greater ground clearance.
The engine and drive train are similar to the normal Yukon on the H2. ....

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