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D28F 7308 New Holland loader mounts

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Tiderunner
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-25          168230

Has anyone out there mounted a 7308 loader on their Shibaura D28F? I just purchased one and the front mount fits but I need to move the back mount forward about three inches. This puts the load point in line with my bell housing to engine connection. Will this be a problem? Has anyone had any problems with breakage? I know the limits of the tractor and that it is not a D-8. I will use it for loading manure and moving dirt and gravel piles.

Thanks
Scott


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2010-01-25          168236

Do some searching here for cracked or broken bell or clutch housing. Very expensive to fix. Dozing isn't the issue; it's lifting. ....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2010-01-25          168237

Or do a sub-frame. ....

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Tiderunner
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-25          168238

I saw the comments showing the 1920 with the broken engine block. My first thought was to high of a relief setting with too much counter weight from the snow blower.

Thanks ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2010-01-26          168240

Most of the cracked transmission housings I've seen appear to be caused by repetitive stresses, it was just a single overload that caused the final catastrophic failure.

It also seems that of the units that fail, almost all of them are units that were existing Asia designs imported to North America as a "Compact Utility Tractor". Loader use on a 'farm tractor' in Asian is rare, mostly because their big problem is mucky soil, added weight to the front end is not a good thing.

Having said that, the stresses are not a result of a high pressure relief setting per se, nor is it the liftiung itself.

The problem is traveling with the weight in the bucket. Doing so transfers incredible stresses onto the tractors 'frame', stresses it wasn't designed to take. Every time you hit a bump with a load in the bucket and a counter balance on the 3pth the forces are trying to bend the tractor in the middle. Problem is tractors don't bend, they just break.

Best of luck. ....

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Tiderunner
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Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-26          168241

I think what you are saying makes sense. I have been looking at the mounting points that are available and considering a sub-frame assembly not just the mid mount like most are set up with. ....

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earthwrks
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2010-01-26          168245

Murf my bad. What I meant was in the context of his question; by lifting i.e. vertical as opposed to dozing lateral shock. I have never seen a sub frame for a FEL, esp for a NH. ....

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Tiderunner
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2010-01-26          168246

There is a tractor dealer in Tennessee that has a few Shibauras on Craig's list and he has had the good sense to tie the loader to the frame in three places. If you check out his pics you can see the loader sub frame running back to the rear axle. I spoke with him this morning and what they have done is spread the load from the center point out the entire rear tractor frame. This is what I was looking for to relieve some of the load at the bellhousing mount.

We will see how it works.

Thanks
Scott ....

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earthwrks
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2010-01-26          168247

Ohhhh maaaan! I shudder when I hear of those other than trained professionals reverse-engineering something for sale as tested, tried and true (not to mention insured if it breaks apart and/or you are injured).

I'll be the first to admit I'm a fabricator/tinkerer when it comes new ideas, inventions etc. for my own use---BUT that's where it stops. With regard to your situation or rather the Tenn dealer, if that machine was never intended to carry the weight of the loader never mind USE it, you're asking---nay---begging for trouble. Why? Front axle components---all of them from pivots, to the material of the axle, bearings, the steering system as whole, even the wheels, hubs and tires may be marginally designed at best.

Ever hear the saying: a chain is only as strong as its weakest link?

....

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Tiderunner
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2010-01-26          168248

I am assuming by your response that you are an expert? Putting to much of a load on anything is not good but you are awfully quick to condemn someone or something you have not seen. What was done makes a lot of sense. I can tell by many posts on this site that one of the weak points is the engine to transmission connection which was not designed to bear the full weight of the loader. By spreading the load you have lessened the risk of failure at that point. One also has to assume that they are working within the limits of the hydraulic system and have not boosted the pressure then you will get what you deserve. As to the front ends you will always get what you pay for so I guess the customer may have bear a little responsibility, unless you are an attorney then you can always blame someone for a lack of good judgment. ....

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earthwrks
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2010-01-26          168250

Runner, oh no you di'nt

I really shouldn't even dignify your last post with any reply. Buuut... that's not how I roll.

Expert.
No
Over 30 years of professional design and TESTING exp. from car and motorcycle parts (like Harleys? Chances are you bought a part I designed fresh out of high school), to multi-million dollar undergound fuel storage systems (starting at age 14 under my father's guidance).
Yes
Built working prototypes of my designs when I worked for others
Yes
Technical automotive writer, technical llustrator, service engineer and new product trainer for 10 years (my artwork was selected for a Motor Trend feature article for Pontiac). (Own a Bentley or Rolls-Royce? You may have read my work)
Yes
For my own business designed, made the molds and tooling, and brought automotive products to market soley on my own at age 23
Yes
Have 2 patents pending for automobile convertible top systems and a semitractor bunk sleeping station
Yes
Grew up on a farm with machines in my blood.
Yes
Owner/operator many pieces heavy construction equipment.
Yes

By the way, ROGLM#O contemporary (that means "today's"), standard-practice tractors don't have "frames" per se in the context you described. So I can only ass-ume YOU sir are not an expert; [comment deleted by moderator]

Like Murf says Best of luck ....

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Tiderunner
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-26          168251

I joined this group to get a little reasonable feedback. [comment deleted by moderator] I did notice in your list of commercial equipment a vast holding of little machines. I was running D8s and 9 starting in 1969. I had my own business until retirement in 1995. I had two truck and pup sets, Komatsu 120 and 200 excavators, 580 D, a 650 case dozer with drum and arch, D85 Komatsu with rippers, a Gallion T-500 and 503A graders and a Hyster compactor at retirement. I am not new to equipment but am new to this type of information gathering. [personal comment deleted by moderator] ....

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Tiderunner
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-26          168252

[personal comments deleted by moderator], heck I can't even see my neighbors house, but wait a minute I own that one on another 5 acres next to the 15 I live on and the mower they have is a Bolens that I gave them to keep the place mowed.

Have a great life I am sure [personal comment deleted by moderator]
....

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earthwrks
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2010-01-27          168253

When things don't add up---they don't add up. Plain and simple.

[personal comments deleted by moderator]
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-01-27          168255

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiderunner | view 168248
I can tell by many posts on this site that one of the weak points is the engine to transmission connection which was not designed to bear the full weight of the loader. By spreading the load you have lessened the risk of failure at that point. One also has to assume that they are working within the limits of the hydraulic system and have not boosted the pressure then you will get what you deserve. As to the front ends you will always get what you pay for so I guess the customer may have bear a little responsibility, unless you are an attorney then you can always blame someone for a lack of good judgment.
Ok, if the chest-beating is done for now, lets shake hands and go back to what this board is all about;

Sharing information and learning from it.



TideRunner, I think what you are missing in this, no offence to your experience sir, is something which in Engineering circles is known as "system engineering". It's pretty common old fashioned 'seat of the pants' kind of logic. It goes something like this.

If we build a, just to pick an example, a trailer, and that trailer is to be of ~7,000 pounds capacity, there is no need to make the frame sufficiently strong to a 40,000# excavator. The rest of the 'system' (tires, rims, axles, springs, etc.) won't handle it.

Likewise, if we are making a ~34hp, 3350 pound tractor, there is no need to put a front axle (or tires, or bearings or spindles) capable of carrying more than a proportional amount of the overall weight, plus a reasonable safety margin for things like counter weights. Now that's not to say the front axle wasn't designed to accommodate the extra weight of a loader, but there's no guarantee it was either.

In most cases, it's not the lift capacity of the loader, nor the relief valve settings per se that is the problem, it's the repetitive stresses transmitted to the tractor when you travel with a load on the loader and then go over even a small bump. The relief valve has part in that.

Best of luck. ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2010-01-27          168257

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 168255
Sharing information and learning from it.....


Murf thanks!

Tiderunners original post said he has bought a loader that is not designed for the tractor he owns. His question is do we have any experience doing this. The answer is no we don't, and for all the reasons that have been enumerated.

Since he owns this combination he is apparently committed to living with the good and bad of his situation, it may work out fine for him, maybe he could have problems. Hopefully the deal he got on the loader will offset any issues he has.

Anyway Tiderunner welcome to the forum and hope that you can join in mutually constructive conversations in the future.

Dennis

....

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Tiderunner
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Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-27          168258

Hi Murf,

Thanks for info you are right this is what the site is for and this kind of dialog is what I am after. Not an attack on someone's solution to a problem. I remember that all of the tractors that I ran growing up on the dairy farms here in Washington had a frame assembly that ran all the way back to the rear axle. Unlike what I see on many of the current loaders for small import tractors. The fellow that I spent time on the phone with and discussed the reasoning behind their decision to extend the loader frame made sense and they did think it out. I know that there are a number of D28s out there both here and in Japan with loaders. I think that the real point here is to not exceed working the capacity of the machine. I also know that the little 2n and International M tricycle on the dairy were not designed for loaders but they ran with them until the dairy was sold (1981) without a problem they were a bugger to steer with a load but they did not break. I also know that this little D28 is not my old 580 and do not expect to do the work of one. I have seen a lot of guys with these little machines destroy them in short order by not understanding they are light machines and the forces involved. For my use here around the horse barn I don't anticipate a problem as it is mostly for clean up. The wife will use it for moving compost and also sawdust off of the mill when I am cutting so the work load will be light.


Thanks Again

I am here to exchange ideas and non-attack comments are appreciated. ....

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Tiderunner
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-27          168259

Hi Dennis,

It may be that one of the things I did not include is that the loader was a listed loader for the 1720 and 1920 Ford/ New Holland. My D28 falls inline with those applications. I had seen comments on this site and others about breaking the Ford New Holland and other brands of compacts as well. One of the pictures I saw of a Ford that had broken showed it with a large snow blower hanging off of it. This extra heavy counter weight along with asking to much of the machine appeared self explanatory. The insight I did gain was that the tractors all broke with an upward thrust. I hadn't thought that out but looking at the leverage involved it did make sense. (I learned) By spreading the load back to the rear and not focusing it on just the engine bell housing connection I think that I can avoid the problem. But of course like I said in one of my other posts it is for light work around the barn. My days of billing people for excavating services is over.

Thanks
Scott ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-01-27          168262

We went up the scale from H and M Farmalls to the 560 and 656 models with loaders on one or two of them most of the time. They all had a side channel frame along the engine so we never gsve a thought to one breaking, which they didn't that I knew about. Next step up you might say was a Case 1070 which relied only on the engine block as the frame. I bought a used Westendorf WL 42 loader for the Case, used it for a while, never breaking anything but always was a bit nervous about only the engine block holding the thing together with a heavy loader. Just to feel more confident about things I helped a local fabricator build a subframe from eight inch channel that went from the rear axle housings along the sides of the tractor fastening it to any attachment points that were on the housings then all the way to the front bolster. I used it that way for years till we sold out, far as I know it is still being used. ....

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Tiderunner
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Posts: 13 Western Washington
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2010-01-27          168264

Thanks Hardwood,

The additional mounting points are what I am looking to do on my D28F. I am sure that this will help relieve the upward stress that occurs with only the center point attachment. And now that I think about it, it seems I do remember a channel up the sides of the old farmall. I know with the tricycle steering it was always exciting to load gravel from the bank-run pit onto the 46 dodge flatbed dump. ....

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hardwood
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2010-01-27          168267

TR;
I can barely spell Shibaura let alone know anything about one, but just another comment I'll add.
My thougth is that tractors like my Deere 4310 which has no engine side frame that have a loader designed by Deere to fit their tractors may use engine blocks, transmission housings, front axles, etc. that are designed heavier for that reason. Again like the Case 1070 I'm not aware of anyone breaking a block on a 4310 from loader use but Deere does have subframe thru their parts counter that can be added to the underside of the four thousand ten series models. I did order and install the subframe that goes from the rear axle mouinting bolts forward to just short of the front bolster. The subframe limits the use of a mid mount mower unless you take it off, but it has openings in the correct places to get at drain plugs, filters, etc., it just looks like it was meant to be there.
Frank. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2010-01-27          168268

Scott, welcome from one sawyer to another!!! Alas I don't get to play as often as I'd like, but we have an old Frick '0' up at my family farm, and I have a Woodmizer at my summer place.

As for the loader sub-frame, the problem isn't so simple as people would think. The sub-frame is usually made of HSS (Hollow Structural Sections) style of tube steel, generally about 2" X 4" X 1/4" wall material. The tractor is made from Cast Iron or some type of Cast Iron Alloy.

Now the problem, HSS is ductile (flexible) Cast Iron is not. The result, the sub-frame will flex, transmitting the stress right back to the Cast Iron tractor which is not flexible.

Now I'm not going to say a sub-frame is useless, it's not, but if it's not designed & fabricated by someone with a lot of knowledge about steel and engineering it will certainly allow far more flex than the cast iron components will tolerate.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2010-01-27          168270

Murf;
I never owned a sawmill but used to help a friend who had a circular mill when I could get around better. I was always fascinated at seeing nice lumber come from some pretty ugly old logs. He never was a high volume sawyer so had plenty of time to keep things in tune. His boards rivaled some of the band mills I've been around. He used to run it from the PTO of a 4020 Deere till he found a fifty horse three phase motor for almost scrap price. The old motor looks like something that Thomas Edison built but it works just fine.
I'm kinda working down my inventory of hardwood lumber lately but still probably have 10-15K bd.ft. on hand. ....

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Murf
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2010-01-28          168280

Frank, if you were closer (and had less wood in 'inventory' already) I'd gladly offer you some of my "special" boards. I've seen pictures of some of your craftsmanship, I have no doubt you'd do my lumber proud.

In our area there was a rare combination that has today, left us some phenomenal lumber, but you really have to work to get it! We used to have vast stands of old growth white pine, maple, oak (both red & white) and many other majestic trees. They were lumber during the 1800's and floated to mills. Many of them though, mostly the really dense ones, sank along the way. They are still down there today, the very cold water having preserved and aged them in unbelievable fashion.

I have a very good friend who owns a dive shop, we routinely arrange practice dives for his students and customers. They go down and hook me onto the logs, I winch them to the surface then home to be sawn. You wouldn't believe what comes out of those ugly old dirty slimy logs!!!

The link below shows a bit about it, but featuring a large commercial enterprise doing the same thing. They were even featured on the Discovery Channel show "Dirty Jobs".

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Bio-Timber Underwater Lumber

 
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earthwrks
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2010-01-28          168285

Murf have you seen the Canadian-developed old-growth wood harvesting system for standing but submerged timber as in a lake bed? It had a robotic sub with a saw at the bottom that rode down the timber stripping the old limbs as it went---sort of like earth-bound harvesting machines. Once cut, it inflated a tethered balloon bringing it the surface for towing to the shore. Being the man-about-town that you are, lol knowing you, you prolly had a hand in designing it or know the guys that did! ....

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Murf
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2010-01-28          168286

Jeff, I have seen it, but no, thanks for the vote of confidence but I had nothing to do with it.

That operation is out on the left coast. They need that stuff out there because they built hydro-electric dams that flooded large tracts of big trees.

Around here that market simply doesn't exist.

I am, together with a friend though trying my hand at an automated ROV (remotely operated vehicle) to retrieve submerged logs. The big problem we have here is very deep cold water. This combination means a) the (boat-mounted) sonar is a long way away from the bottom, and so has a tough time differentiating between logs and rocks, and b) divers have a very limited time on the bottom.

We figure if we can automate the process we can both significantly shorten the time line (summer time only now),and reduce the cost and risk of having humans go down after the logs.

It will also be useable for retrieving submerged snowmobiles, ATV's, cars and trucks. This is becoming a big business since the insurance companies are on the hook for the cleanup and retrieval.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2010-01-28          168287

How about a small barge as work platform, fitted with ocean-going container as office? For sunken "treasure$" how about an electromagnet on the end of a mini-ex on the barge? ....

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Murf
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2010-01-28          168288

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 168287
For sunken "treasure$" how about an electromagnet on the end of a mini-ex on the barge?


I already thought of that, but when I called the Acme Company of Walla Walla, Washington they told me they just sold the last one to a Mr. Wile E. Coyote of Arizona, and they've stopped production of them because of the tendency to drop on the operator causing them to go up & down like an accordion when they walk afterward.

Instead we are working on a system much like a planer-board that goes on a down-rigger for fishing. Except ours will be powered and equipped with metal detectors that automatically steer the 'fish' in the direction of the object it is sensing. The closer it gets, the more accurate the image from the sonar is.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2010-01-28          168289

Murf;
I'm always open to sometning new, so we could arange an air drop next time you fly down Iowa way, my frozen chisel plowing might be a bit tough on your landing gear.
I always wanted to get into the sawmill business, but had to make a choice when the furniture production got to be a serious busines. Sometimes you spread yourself too thin and don't have the time to do anything right.
I did see that on Discovery and another one about somewhere in Europe they are finding centurys old logs in peat bogs that they are recovering and selling at unbelieveably high dollars.
Trends come and go in furniture woods but seem to always gravitate back to the oaks. I still have a good supply of red, white, and burr, some flat sawn some quarter sawn, plus quire a bit of cherry, maple, elm, sycamore, walnut, etc.
What we call burr oak you may call by another name, there seem to be dozens of different oaks.
I bought some walnut logs once and had sawn and was kind of amazed at how much different the coloring is in different logs, so another reason to buy from a sawmill they will let you sort for color in most specie if you buy enough volume. ....

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Murf
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2010-01-28          168290

Frank, even well dried, just few boards and my poor old machine would never get off the ground, especially with my gravitationally challenged butt in the mix!!

I too like the Oaks, when I bought the house I'm in now one of the first things I did was get rid of a lot of the flooring and all of the mill-work. MDF, blech!!!

I did the family room (below) out of the 'left-overs' from a job I did for a guy a few years back. Lots of shorts, but for a pegged floor that works out just fine.

Best of luck. ....

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