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Kubota vs John Deere Compact Tractors Review

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-13          76795

We have 5 acres, ponds, horses,trees, etc. 90% of my work at home is moving material, 20 yards of this, 40 yards of that, etc. We bought a grey mkt tractor about 7 years ago. very powerful, a bit bigger (physical size) than I should have gotten. Busted-up some stuff during the "learning curve". W/ much of my work being FEL stuff, the geared tractor was a nightmare. And a bit rickety. A lot of those things have changed in the grey mkt world as I have recently realized. But I sold it soon and for a loss. Lesson learned.

I am now able to get what I want (and thankful for it) and I wanted about 20 hp, FEL, box, 4wd, hydro tranny. The compact size is important as well in and out of the barn and for my second operator, wife.

Research told me Kubota, price (surprising enough I thought) pushed me towards John Deere. The battle was on between the JD 4010 and the Kubota B7510, both comparably equipped and both very fine machines. Upon finding a dealer that sold both I did all the side-by-sideI could handle for about an hour. Then I sat on the JD and drove it around. Yep fun. As soon as I got off and sat in theseat of the orange tractor, it was over. Didn't even start it yet. Main difference to me was the ability to see the bucket clearly. I relate it to an old sedan and being able to pick up the corners of the hood from the driver's seat. The orange tractor had a clear view of the loading area. With the new hood style, the JD was a tad uncomfortable in this regard. the support bars for the loader (down the sides of the engine cowling) don't help this problem either on the JD. The JD also has a lower COG because of this. The next issue was the pedals/foot controls. "Felt" much more natural to me on the 7510, being comfortable and confident is OK. The last of the major issues was the joystick for FEL. On the Kubota I felt like it was a part of the task at hand. Felt to me like both my hands were where they should be. The response is quicker and felt more direct. The JD stick at the right hip I initialy thought was cool. Upon further review it seemed like it was too far away from what I was doing. The length of the stick itself and all mechanical advantage of the action of it felt slow and "off". Seemed like it wasn't responding to what I wanted to do in time. Seemed like a long way from the lever to the bucket. I liken this to a short-throw race-type transmission vs a standard throw. The precision felt good to me.

Time is not an issue when you own your own tractor working on your own property (within reason). You are not worried about returning a rental unit by the end of the day so you take your time. Another load or two just means more time on your rig.

These are merely my personal opinions.

Again, both very nice machines. Wife from mid-west (farmgirl)so the dissapointment came from deciding on the orange one. She does understand the differences and agrees with "our" choice. Personally I was pretty stoked about using all my research tools and mechanical knowledge to actually get the one I wanted anyway.

So here we go.
Sorry for long-winded post.
-ao


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-13          76797

Yeah, they're both nice machines. When I compared the JD 4310-4410 to the Kubota 3130-3430 I arrived at the opposite conclusion using the same reasoning as you. I didn't care for the Kubota pedal arrangement or their joystick location. Price was about the same so the ergonomics and dealer made the difference for me. Good thing choices are available :)

Enjoy your new tractor, and welcome to the forum!
....

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blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-02-13          76800

If the CFO is going to use the tractor, I'd say you ought to let her have a side by side comparison test drive before you find your orange CUT has given you blue cojones!
Both fine tractors, just make sure there are no unacceptable features for either operator.

Good Luck with your new purchase,
bliz ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 121 Colorado
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2004-02-13          76806

I did my own shootout, and ended up orange. I was looking at the L series (4330) versus the 4610. I've found that my orange dealer was a good bit easier to work with than my green dealers I talked to. Here is what I found.

1) I found the fit of the orange tractor to be far superior for smaller people than green. The pedal location was better for me, and I preferred the joystick up by my steering wheel. The tilt mechanism on the deere was chincy and difficult to operate, and getting the seat adjusted so my feet would reach the pedals (don't laugh, I'm only 5' 5") took 10 minutes with the dealer frantically trying.

2) I did my shootout in 20 degree weather - Anyone can start a diesel on a nice day. The orange tractor started and drove nicely. The green tractor started OK, but kind sounded tough (no clutch?). When I drove the green tractor, the whole tractor squealed like a cold hydraulic system (it was quiet when we were letting it warm up) - Probably the power steering, but anyway. It was a rough demo.

Both have great resale in my area, except that you can't find used orange ever unless you hit the used tractor dealer. The first green dealer didn't have any 4610/4710 size tractors and didn't seem real interested in helping me find one, selling mostly lawn equipment and gators. The second dealer was helpful, and had something other than MSRP to show me, but got a little fancy with his math. He showed me cost, then added in his prep fees, delivery, etc and then took his 10% (rounded up to 11 on his "worksheet") margin he likes to have, and layed out the price. Seemed reasonable, until I realized that I was paying freight twice, margin on the setup, paying for a pallet, and then paying about $11 per loaded mile to deliver it 9 miles away. Having driven both, I liked orange, and the dealer was a lot easier to work with. I pretty much paid the orange dealer the price he was asking, because he didn't give me MSRP up front or play any games, and threw in thinks like quick-tach, block heater, and a few sets of wheel weights.

To pretty much seal the deal (green guys, cover your eyes!) my buddies, all engineers at deere, said that even with the deere employee discount, they still do better to buy orange or blue from their local dealers. Ouch! Coupled with the fact that their sole job has been to reduce the cost on each part, made the decision easy too.

Ultimatly, the way the dealer handled me made the difference. My orange dealer worked hard, and ended up delivering a 4330, 853 FEL, box blade, PHD, and BH90 backhoe in _ 4 days _. The quick delivery saved me some money on work I would have had to hire out, and the delivery and service has been fantastic.

I think the green is a great tractor, and basically, everyone who gave me input on this board was dead right:
---------------------------------------
1) Which Feels better (each person has preferences)?

2) Which dealer is going to provide the better experience? ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-13          76807

Reducing the cost of each part is a major part of product engineering so they wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't. The idea is to make the part as inexpensive as possible and have it still do the job. Nothing wrong with that, it's when the parts don't do the job that trouble pops up :(

A guy I know who used to work for one of the Detroit automakers told me they selected the cheapest trim adhesive that would work in the region where the car was originally sold. That may be why we used to see trim falling off half the cars in Phoenix on hot summer days :)

Curious, though, if the JD CUTs are basically Yanmars why your JD friends would be working on part pricing. Maybe they were talking about the BIG IRON.

Employee discounts often aren't that great. A recent thread had a guy who worked at CNH finding better prices without using his employee discount.

I had to drive 80 miles to find a decent Kubota dealer when shopping (Moen machinery in Gresham Oregon, great guys). The guy closest to me couldn't have been worse to deal with. The dealer certainly makes a difference. ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-13          76809

Kubota vs the JD:
I am surprised at the number of times I have read on this
forum about the attitude of Deere dealers. I too tried to buy a JD but the two local dealers both had the "take it or leave it" thing going. I left it. Why is this? Is there
a special class they take at the JD school of how to not sell a tractor? Some of these guy's couldn't sell a bucket of water at a fire!
I think they are probably about equal machines. Just an observation. Anybody agree with me about the dealers or
is it my imagination? ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-13          76811

I think you're probably right about the arrogance of a lot of JD dealers, but I didn't run across that. I suppose they'd rather spend their time selling a $250k piece of equipment than a $15k one. The CUTs sort of fall in the middle - some of the JD lawn & garden dealers don't sell anything bigger than a garden tractor, and the full-line dealers would often rather sell the big stuff. Kubota dealers often don't deal with big equipment so selling a CUT is what they're all about. Not defending it, but that seems to be the current reality.

FWIW, the Kubota dealer I first went to deals a lot with big wineries and rental companies and didn't want to talk to me if I was only buying one tractor. So it's not just a JD problem, but probably more so than Kubota. ....

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plugger
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12 wapum pa
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2004-02-13          76812

I to tried to deal with the green but the two dealers I went to seemed to care less if they sold me one, So I ended up with the orange,,,And glad I did! I love it so far. ....

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-14          76823

I must say that my local JD dealer, John at Peninsula Feed was top-notch. Very professional and knowledgable. He wanted to sell me a green one and I will send him a note telling him how it all came down. There was a guy at a dealer out of town that was a bit annoying. It was my first JD sales confrontation. I shut him down and moved-on.

I also must note that the most knowledgeable, friendly, professional Kubota dealer I talked to I did not buy from. It was an interesting situation that I'll explain possibly later this weekend.

kwschumm-- what a righteous-looking front bucket you have, I can't help but hum the "Jaws" theme when viewing it. What's that called? New building coming? Me too. A Miracle Truss 30 x 48 w/ 14' eaves arrives in May.

Thanks to all for your replies, insight, and welcome.
Yes indeed it's nice to have choices.

I'll let you know how the CFO does on the unit.
Tractor that is.

have an above-average weekend


...ao
....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-14          76836

Agentorange, that is a BoDozer grapple, made by Borgford. I've got a regular bucket too, but the grapple is awesome for handling all the slash and trees I deal with on our tree farm. The dealer didn't know about those when I bought and since then has sold a bunch of them. They're great for all the woodland owners in our area.

I'm envious of your upcoming steel building. How much research did you do before ordering your Miracle Truss building? Why did you choose them? And, if you don't mind, what is a ballpark price for a Miracle Truss building of that size? ....

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wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 36 Brandon, MS
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2004-02-14          76852

My own battle between JD and Kubota is still raging however last week It came to a head.I drove 100 miles to a JD dealer that had a 4410 eHydro that he had priced out with a 430 loader. The trip was not just to see the JD tractor but was just one leg my weekend vacation trip. Well, we (my wife was with me) arrived at the dealer so I walked in, introduced myself and then he took us out to the yard to see the 4410. I took the tractor for a faily extensive test drive and was pleased with its performance. After that He raised the hood to show off the engine. My wife happened to be standing there and immediately asked the dealer if it was made out of plastic which he replied," well I am suposed to say that its Space Age material but yes it is plastic". My wife then exclaimed," For a 17,000 dollar tractor!" I just stood there for a moment and said nothing. I knew then that this situation was not going to end on a good note.

We proceeded into the dealers office to add up and finalize the numbers.The situation got even worse. The dealer reviewed the previous quote that he gave me a week eariler and said he found a mistake in his figures. When he added the telescoping draft links he took off the 3 pt hitch. His final number was alomst $800.00 higher. I was so mad by this time I simply said that I would get back to him later and left.

I have not purchased a tractor yet the Kutoba is now a 90% probability. Whover the genious at Deere is who came up with the plactic hood and fenders for the 4000 series should by fired! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-14          76853

The plastic vs. metal debate comes up all the time. For my needs plastic is superior. I drive through dense forest and foliage all the time where metal would have been dented and the paint all scraped up by now. The plastic shows almost no wear at all. Metal bodied tractors of our neighbors certainly show serious wear and tear. But metal certainly feels more substantial.

A product development guy on one board (not sure if it was here or not) said plastic body parts were more expensive to manufacture. I have no knowledge of that personally.

Anyway, some folks prefer plastic and some metal. The ideal material would be resilient metal with color throughout, but nobody makes that :) ....

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wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 36 Brandon, MS
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2004-02-14          76855

I hear you kwschumm however, after the hood was raised completely into the latched posistion, we could not pull it back down. Everytime we tried the entire front shroud flexed severely. Only after the mechanic came out and applied grease to the plastic latch mechanism were we able to pull the hood back down. The whole thing looked and felt like something that you would find on a riding lawnmower not a top-of-the-line CUT.AT least make the plastic much thicker. Put metal on the tractor and I will buy it, this is my response to John Deere and company.
By the way, what would happen to the hood if after the tractor set out in zero degree or lower temperatures overnight and was struck with a hammer. Would it crack? ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-14          76856

We never get zero degree temperatures here so not sure about that. I do know, though, that a piece of firewood falling off the back of the bucket and hitting the hood will dent a metal hood and won't harm the plastic one when temps are moderate. Since 90% of my work is done in warmer temperatures, that is a more realistic scenario for me. ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-02-14          76859

Hey Agent, I am happy to read your post because it shows a systematic approach to one of the longest running questions that keeps poping up here. I think you did the right thing, regardless of who makes what, you tried until you were satisfied. But most important, you knew that despite all of the differences that could be of benefit to your comfort and ease of use, you were able to determine for yourself which were the most important. My family has owned so many machines, each with different character, but sooner or later we were all fighting to use the ones that just plain felt right. The hired help got to use the ones we would rather not bother with. Eight or more hours on the job with an uncomfortable machine leads to being big tired at the end of the day. And as a side note, your dealer can make everything right, or a living hell. Best to find the one you are comfortable with to start out, and go from there. Good luck with the big orange. ....

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-14          76860

wildbill-- I'm all for technology. It's techno stuff that allows us to do this (and a good many other things) at all. I work in an industrial environment somewhat as an elevator mechanic. The beefier the better normally. I have seen tremendous changes in my industry since 1978. Most of them being 20 pounds of controls doing what 150 pounds used to do. Only now it is done more efficiently and more energy efficient as well. Also the materials used (honeycombed phsycotic thin materials doing the work of old plate steel) are far more advanced. Plastic, even space-age stuff is solid color all the way thru. This is not you father's Oldsmobile my friend. Our family sedan is an older (1991) Mercedes 420SEL. The armored sofa. Good place for metal. My golf shafts are graphite-boron composite with a head that has a face of annoyingly thin titanium. Runs cirlces around my 20 year old clubs.

All in all sounds like your having a bit of fun. Don't deny it. Your plastic vs steel battle is a classic one. Some good - some bad. Enjoy it. Life's just that way. I hope you find just the right model for you. You know you will. Good luck and have fun.

Abbeywoods--I appreciate your confirmation. I'm a research junkie.

Kwschumm-- Thanks for explain on front-end. That thing rules! Per ususal my exhaustive research led me to John Turner at Miracle Truss. Overall a touch more $ than the local guys buildings but upon further review the MT building is far superior. The service so far has been top-notch as well. Around November of last year I noticed on the MT website that there were a few "closeouts" hanging around. Some folks either decided not to build or(normally) went bigger. John Turner called me and told me that he had a 30x36 going on ebay the next day for about 11.5K. He was going to sell it to me within the next 24 hours for $9800. We had been in touch for a few weeks. I extended it to 48 and increased eave to 14 and I'm out the door for about 14k as I recall. The paperwork they send: assembly materials, approved drawings signed by local engineering firm, instructional diagrams, and the like are all first-rate and extremely professional. That price includes delivery to my house. I put 2500 down and they want me to go thru the entire package when it arrives before I send them any more. I have seen one and we are very excited about getting into it in May.

That's my take on it.
Now it's back out to prep an area for the new ride. Time to remove all the stupid stuff from a covered area and put in something nice.

You are in Oregon?

-ao ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-14          76861

Agentorange, thanks for all the good info. Since I have no immediate timetable for a building your approach sounds like the way to go. I could contact Miracle Truss and maybe one or two other suppliers and wait for a closeout or overstock deal. Right now the tractor is in the garage but most of the implements are under our second floor deck.

Yes, we're in Oregon a ways north of Banks (which is west of Hillsboro). Are you in WA or OR? ....

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wildbill
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 36 Brandon, MS
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2004-02-14          76869

Agentorange I agree with what you said regarding technology advancements. I and an engineer with other 30 years experience in the Defense aerospace business and have seen considerable changes in materials over the years. This plastic thing is just amatter of integrety of product robustness and durability. I understand the pros/cons between metal and plastic but I guess it just that plastic sounds cheap and I have had many bad experiences with it. Thanks for everyones inputs on this subject. I am a quality freek and don't mind paying for it. ....

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ChuckT
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8 East Central Fla.
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2004-02-14          76874

agentorange - only 1/2 of your picture comes through.

cvt ....

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-14          76893

wildbill- you have good, solid feelings towards that issue, I do as well. Obviously your engineering experience has probably seen more change than most of us. My dad started in airplanes and did last 20 years in aerospace. He's been retired since 1984 or so. Not sure when you were in or if you still are but I do know that during the 60's and early 70's, being the son of an aerospace engineer was pretty great. I remember him bringing home small pieces of solid propellant. How good is that? Those were some boomin' times. I also am not afraid to step up and pay for the good stuff. I do not immediately know what that is sometimes though and that's when I engage the "research mode". I'll know all about the issue that seems important to me at the time, make a calculated and logical decision, then move on to something completely different and start all over again. Again, good luck to you. Sounds like you'll do the right thing for sure.

Chuck T- I have set my digi-cam for the best quality photos it can produce. It's a decent machine, was a couple years ago anyway. My intentions were to be able to crop sections from pictures and enlarge without loss of detail. BUT NOW.. these jumbo resolution pics are starting to cause me some difficulty. My folks have a dial-up connection and when I send just one picture it smokes their gear. Tonight I am looking into a compromise of sorts for my future picture taking. The reason the picture is only about 30% is because the file is too damn big. I will adjust and comply.

-ao ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-02-15          76901

In regards to the non-metallic material thoughts, I started my career at Sikorsky on what was a little known black project called LHX (Light Helicopter Experimental), now known as RAH66 Comanche (a stealth scout/gunship). I helped develop the manufacturing and tooling process for what we now call "black sheet metal," or composites. In the early days, no one called the various blends of textiles and resins "plastic." They reach far beyond the norm of what we all think of now as plastic, and today, these materials we worked so hard to develop are showing up in bicycles, cars, and trucks. There is one huge down side to all of the new materials when compared to metal, forget about recycling the stuff. Best to send it off to a land-fill when done. But I think someone will eventually find a way to re-use the stuff again. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2004-02-15          76902

Another thought about composite/plastic is: it reduces/buffers noise with out having to add acustic material to tin. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-02-15          76906

Hey guys, this is simple. You build machinery out of metal, you build toys out of plastic. I had a toy tractor many years ago. Now I have a piece of machinery. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-02-15          76907

Tractors: I will be thoroughly amazed if you can find a current Kubota model with NO plastic body parts.

Digital Photo's: I have a process to shrink the entire picture file. It can be done before or after cropping. Dennis has it posted somewhere on the site.

mark ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-02-15          76920

Some type of plastic is used on all tractors, some just on the gauge panel parts. Most of the manufacturers use it to quite loud engines to bring them into compliance with noise regulations. Some manufacturers of tractors are quiet enough they don't need to use a more expensive cover to keep the noise hid. It is more costly to build the plastics and that is why some manufacturers don't use it because they don't need to! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-15          76922

I don't buy it Art. Noise blankets have to be cheap - that's what the automakers use. Direct injection engines like Deere uses are noisier than indirect, but they're also a bit more fuel efficient. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-02-15          76924

I have to admit that I was a bit put off by the extensive plastic in the NH (the first compact I looked at). Most of us are used to seeing steel. But by the time I bought, I don't think it was an issue for me anymore. Time will tell if composites are the better, cheaper, stronger solution. If they are, all the manufacturers will make the move to using them. ....

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-15          76927

DRankin-- tks for picture info, I'll look for it. I have a couple of software programs that will probably do the trick. Just gotta get into the manuals a bit. I'll have it in a couple days.

-ao ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-15          76934

What's the difference? Very few of us are even going to
let them get scratched never mind dented. There is a guy a few towns above me here who's faily new Caddy is in the driveway and his John deere is in the garage. I will try to
get a pic of this, it is a classic.
I'm happy to have one plastic, metal, whatever! It's new
and its mine. Waxed it lately?

....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2004-02-15          76942

I was probably the one that stated that the plastic hood is more expensive. If your chainsaw is any indication it is likely more robust also.
I dented my 750 hood and looked for a new center panel. Ouch I decided to go into panel beating and bondo instead.
One of the first applications for plastic composites were the front hoods of the road tractors. I doubt the you can find any Peterbuilt, Volvo, Freightliner etc that has a metal hood. ....

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itsgottobegreen
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-02-15          76959

I have owned both and have to say you need one of each. I got a great JD dealer and another great Kubota dealer both 10 miles from my house. To bad there not right next to each other. I have to go two different ways to get parts on parts day.

Agentorange your problem is the same problem everyone has when looking at JD and kubota. The loader control, foot petal location and construction. I belive the JD has a much better built loader, but is harder to get off. The JD has better foot petal placement, but the kubota transmission will not fall apart in 5 hours of use. The Kubota still has steel body parts. Plus that hard to kill kubota diesel engine.
By the way might i recommend one of my Light bars for your B7510 (see my pictures) Tractorpoint member special of $225 plus shipping. send email if you want one. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-02-15          76963

Grinder, similar to your friend with a caddy, I put my JD4310 in the garage and leave my "almost new" car out in the driveway. My wife got me a remote starter for the car so I can warm it up in the morning. ....

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itsgottobegreen
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-02-15          76965

ncrunch my dad's new car has been living out side since xmas. I just to finally got the garge rearranged so the JD 214 w/plow and blower, Kubota B7500w/loader, coleman camper, mig welder, sail boat, bikes, etc. Will fit on one side. I have been starting his car up every day so it warm when he gets into it as punishment. I hope our new two bay garage plans go though this time. I need more room. ....

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agentorange
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-02-15          76984

itsgottobegreen-- There's no problem here.

-ao ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-16          77014

I have been sitting back listening to the plastic/metal debate again. Plastic can be done well or poorly just like metal can. You will find quality plastic body parts on big trucks, Corvettes, Hummers, Race Cars, and most CUTs. My CUT has plastic fenders and hood.

You can still get metal hoods on CUTS. You just have to buy the JD790, NH TC30 or the other cost reduced price leaders that are produced by each tractor maker. These are good tractors, but they are produced with technology that allows the manufacturer to provide a low introductory price.

If there was a big problem with plastic hoods and fenders breaking under normal usage, you would have heard about it here a long time ago, manufacturers would not be expanding the use of a material that is going to cause them warranty problems, and they would never have achieved fuel economy and vehicle life improvements without plastic composites. ....

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agentorange
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2004-02-16          77034

AC5ZO- xlnt points indeed

If the big companies were having problems with it (high-tech plastic parts) and it was costing them money they'd either be out of business or pepole like us could not afford their machines. My new Kubota has plenty of it onboard.

good info

-ao ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-02-16          77037

I'm sick of plastic. If it is done right that is the issue. Cold weather and sunlight reduces life. I've got a couple cub-cadet lawn mowers with broken plastic hoods and side panels-$75 & $125.00. My kid has a Grand AM GT with cracked cowling by the fog lights $800.00 from driving in a hard packed snow parking lot that turned icy and didn't even hit anything.

My 53year old Farmall "C" doesn't have dents in the fenders, hood or anyplace else. Would like to see how the plastic handles 53 years. It breaks, you pay to fix it and they made it cheaper to save a few bucks up front. ....

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Peters
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Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2004-02-17          77135

As for plastic, damage in cold weather can reduce its life as will sunlight.
Most tractors cowls are made of the same type of materials used on the ATV or the snowmobile. They should be robust at low temperatures down to -40 C if they are not then we need to explain to the manufactures the facts of life and get restitution.
With the old metal panels you had to repaint also. The new plastics should be weather resistant for 10 years or more. Likewise if they are fading prematurely we need to, as customers, raise the roof so to speak.
If we accept shody materials then they will cut corners until it hurts them in the bottom line.
Personally I have no trouble getting something that is a defective plastic replaced, but then I studied plastics for 10 years. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-02-17          77137

The cadet people laugh at you if you ask for a free replacement. Been there, done that! Also, try to tell GM to replace the component. I also have had numerous bug deflectors made from lexan. They last about 3-5 years and when you drive about 40mph at about -5 degrees--wham! ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-17          77140

Peters, I agree with you entirely. I think that we both have experience with the proper use of plastics and I am not the least bit bothered that the hood and fenders on my CUT are made from organic material.

I have restored more old tractors than most people that I know and I have seen severe metal damage from poorly painted and prepared metal parts; painted parts that were damaged by bird crap, animal urine, wet plant debris, and other corrosive agents. I own a number of racing cars and motorcycles that all use plastic parts. I have more trouble with the painted metal on the older vehicles.

Seat belts, bullet proof vests, bullet proof glass, motorcycle helmets, safety harnesses, mountain climbing ropes, and a host of other life critical applications are all made with the proper use of plastics. Cold weather can be properly addressed since all ski boots and skis are made with plastic.

A point has been made that plastics can be poorly done, but I have no evidence to think that any of the plastic parts used by the big three CUT manufacturers have any defect in material, application or workmanship at all.

Yoop..I am not denying that you have a very good tractor that is 53 years old. It is a well built piece of equipment and if it is cared for it could last another 53 years. But, when I was restoring older tractors, there were many tractors of that age that were stripped for parts for every one that still worked like new.

I hope that my CUT will last for 53 years, but only time will tell, and I likely won't be around to tell you if it made it. I do know that some of the current paints that meet environmental regulations will not last 53 years and that many vehicles will suffer from paint damage and will start rusting within ten years. ....

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JDF415
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 34 Kansas
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2004-02-20          77415

ncrunch32,
You have a very nice looking place. ....

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Art White
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2004-02-21          77467

Ken, unfortunatly I've been away with the wife for a bit. The type of injector doesn't really have that much to do with the noise level as some of the quietest diesels I've worked with are direct injection. It is the whole package and the way it is used that makes the difference. I remember when Cadet went to the plastic hoods to reduce the noise and the difference that was made. If memory is working right it was about 3 to 4 decibels difference depending on the engine at 50'. The fuel economy I wouldn't put that to any one style to say direct or indirect being better as I've seen good in both as well as cold weather starting but I believe that some of the indirect to be overall one of the best and cleanest on cold weather starts. Key here is that plastic doesn't give you rattles like a steel hood would if not properly fastened. The blankets you mentioned are being used some but they to cost money for the manufacturer to use and if there is a better way that costs less they will use it. One point about the steel vs plastic, steel can be recycled more economically then all the different plastics can and after spending some time down south and seeing the newer mountains of garbage that are part of the new landscape I prefer the stuff we can use over again! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-21          77482

Welcome back Art, I thought you had been a little quiet lately. All I can say is that if you do a google search on direct vs. indirect injection that most hits contradict your assertion on both noise and fuel economy. However I'm sure that indirect diesel manufacturers have made efficiency gains in recent years. ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2004-02-21          77489

Ken,
Currently I have a JD 850 with direct injection.
And a Kioti DK 35 with indirect injection.
So far I notice very little differance with cold weather starting(I have no problem with either starting in cold weather), engine noise or fuel economy.
So to me purchasing direct or indirect injection makes no differance . ....

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kwschumm
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2004-02-21          77504

Anecdotal comparisons are valid only for the machines being compared. I can't defend evidence that is contrary to the experience of others, I can only point out that it exists. A well designed indirect injection engine is sure better than a poorly designed direct injection, but generally neither Yanmars are Kubotas are poorly designed. ....

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wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2004-02-21          77508

To the plastic / metal issue. I bring up the Old saying " They don't make things like they use to" This is not just a saying, but a fact. from my experience in the telecommunication/electronics industry. You look at the old phone our parents ( and some of us ) had. The old black or beige palstic Bell Telephones. Many of which are still around, were built and designed to last.
Working with some design engineers today, They design all electronic equipment to last 3 - 5 years and then fail. Reason: It keeps the economy going. Make it cheaper and make it fail and people will buy a new one every few years. This has a huge affect on the economy. People to build the new one. People who package. People who stock it, People who sell it, People who buy it. It is not just one company making the economy grow, it is jobs for many. If it didn't fail, you wouldn't buy a new one. Well I can't say that. Many people will go out and buy new things just to get the neat new features or bells and whistles when it comes to TV, VCR, DVD, Phone, Cordless etc etc, But there are many that don't and if it doesn't fail they don't buy. hence, less jobs, slower economy.

Just a theory ....

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Art White
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2004-02-21          77509

Ken, my experience with both is more in line with the different models we sold or had the experience with working on. The old IH model engines that were indirect were quite noisey incomparison to the direct injection models that followed but there was a time difference of the design. The swirl method that kubota uses in there indirect injection system is unique as well as patented and is not only quiet but does give them excellent cold weather startability compared to many other models and designs. I have my favorites on both sides but it is with other factors as well as the purposes of the engine. Noise as well as engine efficiency of the fuel being burned is becoming more and more critical as the emission standards of diesel engines get tougher. With many of the engines we are using exceeding the 10,000 to 15,000 hour window of life it should be fun to see how these news=er engines stack up. ....

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JDF415
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 34 Kansas
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2004-02-24          77804

DK35VINCE,
The JD 850 tractors had an indirect injection system. They used a precumbustion chamber, which was common to most diesel engines built back then. JD didn't go to the direct injected engines until later models.
The current models 4115 (24 hp) and larger tractors all feature direct injection engines. The smaller 2210, 4010, and 4110 still have indirect injection engines with glow plugs.

I don't hear much difference in the sound between the two types of fuel injection systems, except when first starting and at full throttle. At start up the indirect runs alittle rougher and at full throttle the indirect systems run at a higher rpm (3200) compared to the direct injection (at 2600-2700 rpm). There is also difference in how well they start, especially in cold weather.
With the direct injection you do not have to pre-heat anything. Just crank them up. Even in cold weather.

As for fuel economy, If you compare two engines of the same hp rating, you will find the direct injection burns less fuel than an indirect injection engine. My father had CUT with a 18 hp indirect injection. He then bought a 32hp CUT with direct injection. He claims the larger tractor burnt less fuel doing the same amount of work. (example: mowing his 5 acre lawn) This is not to say the smaller engine didn't burn less fuel per hour. I am sure it did burn less fuel per hour, however it took longer to mow the same area, which in turn caused the smaller tractor to burn more fuel doing the same job. Does this make sense? ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-02-24          77809

JDF415,
You are correct, I looked through my JD owners manual and it is listed as precombustion chamber fuel delivery system.
What ever it is it always ran good and started fine in cold weather, as long as it did I really payed no attention.
The type of fuel delivery they use makes little differance to me, as long as they are reliable, long lasting and work the way they are suppost to ! ....

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kwschumm
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2004-02-24          77810

I think everyone will pretty much agree with you there Vince.

It's funny how these threads wander. The direct vs. indrect divurgence occured when their was a plastic vs. metal body panel debate and somebody said that plastic body panels were used to quiet noisy engines. I then commented that direct injections were noisier but had some advantages. Either kind is welcome in my garage though and they type of design used is pretty far down my priority list. ....

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beagle
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2004-02-24          77812

Until recent advances in fuel injection systems, indirect injection was the only (best) way to assure consistent ignition in the smaller high RPM deisels. The rpm's they run at was too high to assure proper mixing for good combustion at the right piston travel. Indirect injection solved that problem with the pre-combustion chamber. As fuel systems continue to advance, you will probably see indirect injection become less popular. Indirect injection engines do not develop the torque of a direct injection engine. But you gotta love the sound they make when you start them cold! ....

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DK35vince
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2004-02-24          77814

Ken,
I feel the same way about body panels.
Plastic vs metal vs fiberglass.
Makes no differance to me as long as the panels hold up well and work the way they are supposed to. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-02-25          77869

On the plastic vs. metal issue: My BX had a metal hood and plastic side panels. My 4115 has a plastic hood and metal side panels. You pays your dime......

Noise: I was dismayed at the awful ear-splitting racket emanating from my 4115(direct injection). Then I miscalculated the mix ratios and added about 3 or 4 times too much additive to the fuel and it started purring like a kitten. It is now at least as quiet as the 4100 (indirect injection/treated fuel) before it.

If your engine is noisy...... maybe this crap they sell us as fuel is at fault. Maybe it needs more CETANE and the only way to get it is to buy it in a bottle and pour it in.

My latest little Diesel... in my new RTV 900... has a little "crackle" when I accelerate. I am sure that will disappear when I put my treated fuel in it on the second fill-up. ....

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Art White
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2004-02-25          77874

Congratulations on your new RTV how do you like it? ....

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DRankin
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2004-02-25          77880

I took it for it's first off road cruise yesterday. I scared up a herd of wild horses and a herd of mule deer.

It is a great little buggy. I may have to play with some different tires to get better traction on sandy hillsides, but no surprise there. The transmission is awesome. The only time I used the brake pedal was when I changed gears.

That may not sound like much but I was climbing up and down hills I could not have stood on.... so steep that you would have to slide down on your butt.

After that I used it to haul firewood.

I think I will need a top and a windscreen for the cab.

Art, have you sold one yet? Do you have engine and HST filters in stock?

I can't find any around here yet and I think I am going to rack up 50 hours pretty darn quick. ....

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Art White
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2004-02-26          77985

I have two sold but both are full boats and we are waiting on cabs for them. There are two others sold by my brother and I don't know exactly how the rest of the sales department is doing. The oil filter's we do have in stock and sell for 8.60. Good luck with it and I know what you mean about the hold back on hills. The amazing part is with four wheel wet brakes yet to be used to stop with other than the transmission they are going to stop if at all possible. ....

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