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 06-11-2002, 08:06 Post: 39465
ChrisG
2002-06-11 08:06:17
Post: 39465
 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Recently purchased a used B2150HST with 4wd and power steering. The previous owner added a self-centering hydraulic control valve from the hydraulic block to the fender. The hydraulics work, but not quite as I would expect.

To lower the 3PT, I move the position control lever to the down position (makes sense so far).

To raise the 3PT, I first have to move the position control level to the up position, then use the hydraulic contol valve on the fender to lift the 3PT (2 steps - awkward).

The 3PT works as long as I leave the directional valve turned counterclockwise. If I turn it clockwise, as the Operator's Manual indicates for when the hydraulic outlet is in use, the relief valve opens and the 3PT no longer operates.

Since its a lifting problem, I don't think it has to do with the lowering speed control. The pump works since both the 3PT and the power steering work.

I'm mechanically inclined, but this is my first tractor and I haven't worked on hydraulics before. I've read through previous messages on the Board looking for any similar postings. Found a response from TomG indicating a stuck or open poppet value as a reason for not lifting. Could this be the (or one of the)problems, and how do I get to it?

Any suggestions are appreciated before its off to the dealer.






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 06-11-2002, 08:43 Post: 39470
Peters

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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

My old MF operates similarly. I can lower or raise the 3 Pt with the valve opened. I can also raise and lower with the valve.






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 06-11-2002, 08:51 Post: 39471
ChrisG
2002-06-11 00:00:00
Post: 39471
 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

If mine worked like the old MF, it wouldn't be so bad.

I can only lower the 3PT using the position control level.

I can only raise the 3PT by moving the position control lever to up then using the valve on the fender.






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 06-11-2002, 08:52 Post: 39472
Murf



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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Chris, hydraulics, like electricity, is something that requires a firm grasp on the theory since unlike a mechanical operation, there is nothing to look at or study, it happens 'behind the scenes'. Having said that I think the cost of OEM Kubota parts is the second part of your problem. It is not unheard of for a 'power beyond plate' to cost $700, considering it is nothing more than a pound of simply-machine cast iron, it is outrageous, it is nothing more than a hydraulic 'splitter', allowing the fluid to go to multiple valves simultaneously without losing pressure to the others. Having said that, it is very common to see people put remote hydraulics in series with the 3pth, instead of in a parallel circuit as you would have with a 'power beyond plate'. Basically what is happening is that the remote valve has been installed right smack in the middle of your 3pth hydraulic circuit, when you move the valve it allows the 3pth to operate (or not depending on the motion). Unfortunately you need the equivalent of this 'splitter' my suggestion would be to find a good machine shop and have one made, either that or remove the valve, etc., and the system will return to normal. Best of luck.






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 06-11-2002, 09:56 Post: 39474
ChrisG
2002-06-11 00:00:00
Post: 39474
 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Murf, thanks for the response and advise. I don't need the remote valve for the implements I'm using.

You're definitely right about understanding hydraulics. It's a black box that I really don't feel a burning need to understand, just so it works.

I am still a little confused about the 'power beyond plate'. I'm sure it's my lack of hydraulics understanding, but I would have thought that since the remote valve was run from the hydraulic block's auxilary ports that it would have automatically 'split' the pressure. Bad assumption I guess. Of the 3 auxilary ports on the block(to pressure, to neutral, to tank), the remote value was hooked up to the 'to pressure' and 'to tank' ports.

Thanks again. Hopefully all will be fixed once I pull the remote valve.






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 06-11-2002, 13:14 Post: 39480
Murf



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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Chris, things make a little more sense now. A traditional remote valve for that type of use should have 3 lines, not just two. I think most people here would agree that a remote valve is an incredibly handy gadget, even if all you do is get a hydraulic top-link for the 3pth. The fix could just be as simple as putting the proper valve on your machine, the valve should be connected in such a way as to have pressure in one side and out the other and back to the pressure feed for the machine ('neutral' in your case I believe) and then the return to the 'tank' port. Since yours is lacking one line the valve must be moved to accomplish the same thing. Best of luck.






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 06-11-2002, 14:33 Post: 39482
ChrisG
2002-06-11 00:00:00
Post: 39482
 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Murf, thanks again for your reply. My lack of hydraulic understanding is really showing now.

I assume that having a remote value with 3 lines would allow an implement like a hydraulic top link to move both in or out depending on which way the lever was moved.

Since my valve is only using 2 lines I can only have flow in one direction. As long as the valve wasn't being operated (no flow), wouldn't that be the same as removing the valve and hydraulic lines from the hydraulic block auxiliary ports? If so, then the 3PTH won't lift when moving the position control lever to the up position.

Is it possible that the remote valve, connected the way I described was a 'work around' of a different valve or blockage problem in the 3PTH lift hydraulics?






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 06-12-2002, 06:36 Post: 39493
TomG

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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Chris: It sounds like you've got an 'odd-ball' valve installed in the high-pressure line to the 3ph. I'm guessing that there's an inlet line that comes from a hydraulic block and a return line that goes to the TX case. A control valve outlet on the valve probably runs back to the 3ph high-pressure line. If the valve on the fender is for a two-way cylinder, then one direction would operate the 3ph and the other would operate an external device. That would be a very unusual hookup.

If I've guessed correctly, then operating the valve on the fender is the only way to get oil to the 3ph.. When the valve is centred, oil goes to the sump through the valve's return line, but the 3ph would lower normally through it's own return to the sump.

I'll guess some more that there is a hydraulic manifold block that has a diverter valve and pressure and return ports for an auxiliary system. If there were nothing connected to the auxiliary system ports, changing the diverter valve to 'auxiliary' blind-ends the system and the pressure relief valve would open.

If all this guessing is right, a solution is simply to remove the valve on the fender--a new line might be required. At least on my Ford 1710, there is a steel hydraulic line that runs from the block directly to the remote (3ph) valve. That way the 3ph would operate normally and an auxiliary device like a loader could be plumbed into the auxiliary system ports. Plumbed in this manner, both the loader and the 3ph will operate normally (but one at a time) without the need to switch a diverter valve.

The main thing to understand about open centred hydraulic systems is that oil circulates all the time and there always must be a return path to the sump. Operating a valve blocks the line and opens a path to a cylinder. Pressure is developed so the piston moves and more oil can flow. If it's a double acting cylinder (power in both directions) then there is oil on both sides of the piston. Pressure moves the piston in one direction, and oil on the other side of the piston flows out to a return line. However, the pump always pumps, and if no return line is present, then the relief valve opens, which is a return line in its own right.






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 06-12-2002, 10:37 Post: 39499
TomG

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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

I just had an additional thought about the valve on the fender. If it works as I suspect and if it's a log splitter type, then it may have a detent position. With the control level in the detent position, the 3ph may work normally. Valves that have detents can be identified by pushing the control lever fully in one direction. A slight additional push 'clicks' the lever in place and the valve will remain in an open position. I run my backhoe similarly but use a bungee cord to hold a control valve on my loader valve open. However, the return oil from the backhoe valve returns through a cylinder line to the loader valve assembly.

If a cylinder line from the ‘fender’ valve feds the 3ph then the 3ph control valve would route oil to the sump or to the lift cylinder depending on the quadrant lever position. There would be no return oil flow through the valve assembly on the fender.

In all this speculation, it would be helpful to know if the valve assembly on the fender is a power beyond type. A power beyond valve has one high-pressure inlet port and two return ports in addition to its cylinder line ports.






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 06-12-2002, 13:29 Post: 39502
Murf



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 3PT Hydraulics Problem - Kubota B2150

Chris, I suspect the basic problem is the valve itself. It sounds, from your description, that somebody has installed a 'closed center' type valve instead of an 'open center' valve. As the names imply, your valve (closed center) does not allow any fluid to pass the valve until it is moved 'off center' (the resting position of the valve). In an open center setup the fluid comes in one side and right back out the other in the resting position. In this case it would continue merrily along to your 3pth without any intewrvention on your part. As I stated before, at least a phone call, if not a visit, to a good hydraulic shop can probably get the problem solved to your satisfaction for relatively little money. Best of luck.






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