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Kioti DK40 Review -- 95 Hours and no problems

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Luckyfly
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Posts: 18 Alvarado, Texas
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2009-01-07          159188

My Kioti DK 40 now has 95 hours on her with no leaks
and no problems. I changed the engine oil to Amsoil
5w-40 synthetic diesel oil and the hydraulic system to Amsoil Synthetic Tractor Fluid. Kioti filters seemed to
be high quality,and the price was fair so I used them
for the engine and hydraulic system. I did this at the 50
hr. service. I washed and waxed (yes,waxed)her,put fuel
stabilizer in the diesel and locked her inside my shop
out of the weather until Spring. Sleep tight!

Luckyfly


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auerbach
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2009-01-07          159190

Tie down the clutch pedal to prevent internal locking. Some pedals have a clip to make it easier. ....

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DK35vince
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2009-01-07          159191

Good luck with it and keep us informed how its working.

I have 1200+ hours on my DK 35 and the only parts needed so far have been a tachometer cable and a plastic fuel filter bowl. ....

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kthompson
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2009-01-08          159196

Is it eithical to leave a tractor for a whole season? Wont it's heart be broken? ....

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Kioti DK40 Review -- 95 Hours and no problems

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earthwrks
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2009-01-08          159198

Kenny, you ol' redneck--you're confusing tractors with sheep :P

Speaking of which, weren't you a sheep farmer? Got a joke for ya:

Why do sheep farmers wear those rubber, high-top boots? They put the sheep's back legs in 'em so they can't get away!

Does that bring back memories fer ya? Uh-oh ANOTHER year of therapy! tehehehe ....

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Kioti DK40 Review -- 95 Hours and no problems

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Murf
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2009-01-08          159201

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyfly | view 159188
My Kioti DK 40 now has 95 hours on her with no leaksand no problems. I changed the engine oil to Amsoil 5w-40 synthetic diesel oil and the hydraulic system to Amsoil Synthetic Tractor Fluid.


I'd be pretty careful about putting synthetics in an engine and drive line with that few hours on it.

If the engine and internal parts of the trans. and such aren't fully broken in and seated properly you could be causing yourself lots of grief down the road. I hope this is not the case for you.

I've seen low hour machines needing a big $$$ repair just because of that, synthetics are too slippery and don't allow parts to break in the way their supposed to.

We routinely run tractors to many THOUSANDS of hours and they are still in excellent mechanical condition.

Also, if something happens later on, you could have warranty issues. Last I checked Amsoil didn't submit their products to industry standardized testing, they are all hush-hush about their products.

If that is the case the manufacturer can (and likely will) say that you failed to follow required maintenance by useing approved lubricants.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2009-01-08          159204

Warranty..great point there Murf.


Ole Jeffery ole boy...went to comment on it the other day when Murf asked how Michigan allowed you back in...he did not realize that your were SHIPPED back. The best I know sheep are a NORTHERN animal, weather here is too hot for thick wool coats for animal or people.

As to rubber boots, if you don't play in mud or manure you don't need them. Have not had a pair in years, maybe 30 or more. Then mud in summer tennis shoes are good. Heck with some winter temps then also. ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-08          159215

It is O.K. to put your Kioti away for the winter in your
shop as long as you tell her every few days that you love
her and you would never ever look, or touch another tractor. Rub her fenders as you leave and things will
be fine. A little kiss on the hood is appreciated!
And, never look at a sheep while you are on your Kioti
as this could ruin her trust for you......some dudes do
this when they get in the high country.....
The last 2 tractors I owned lasted over 42 years, never
had the heads off, did not use oil, and were lubricated
since 1982 with Mobil 1, then Amsoil. These were gasoline
engines and one had 6,800 hrs. and the other had over
18,000 hours on it. After 40 years the tractors were worn
out,but the engines and drive trains were still going.
I purchased one of the tractors (a backhoe) and ran it
in my backhoe service from the time I started my business
until I retired. Not many people can get 40+ years out of
a tractor you use every day.
Since 1982 when I started using synthetics, I have never
had any problem putting it in a new engine. I have
bought new trucks, cars, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc.
brought them home and change the oil to synthetic.
I had a cheap, throw-away weed trimmer last 23 years on
2-cycle synthetic oil. My stuff seems to almost last
forever. I will admit that I take care of my equipment
when I use it and that the operator has a lot to do with
how long something lasts. Hopefully, this Kioti will last
me until I'm gone,then last someone else a few more years.

Luckyfly

....

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kthompson
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2009-01-08          159216

Luckfly, it sure was enjoyable to read your last post.
Don't think you needed to tell you take care of your equipment. The life span told that.
Just wondering, will the orange Kioti chase sheep or just a green deere?
Someone a good while back posted a picture of a sign that read, nothing runs like a Deere....being chased by a Kioti..thought that was right humorous. ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-01-08          159224

To follow up on Murfs point - make sure any lubricant used is API certified. I know one of the statisticians at Lubrizol (a company that has a extensive lubricant testing facility), we have discussed different experimental designs they use to set the specs for lubricants. Bottom line - if the lubricant you are using is not API certified and meeting the specification of such and such a grade don't bother using it. The tests are expensive and if the lubricant is not up to snuff it fails the test. If x brand of oil wont meet the spec they wont test it (hence the absence of the certification).

On another note - why would a "more slippery" oil cause damage to an engine (for clarity I differentiate this from an oil that's too thin or breaking down). If a synthetic oil meets or exceeds the grade set by the manufacturer why would it damage an engine. If you could provide a reference for your comment so I can do some further reading that would be great. ....

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Kioti DK40 Review -- 95 Hours and no problems

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earthwrks
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2009-01-08          159228

Ann I think what Murf is getting at is the petroleum oil has to have some "shearing" ability to allow the metal of the rings AND the cylinder walls to seat or "break-in" together, the purpose being to polish the visible and microscopic scratches or grooves left by the cylinder honing process. This also applies to the crank journal and rod bearings.

Amsoil in particular, which is animal-fat based if I remember correctly, does not shear well hence its preference for lubricity. After the break-in period I don't see why synthetics can't be used.

However, going back to shearing, this is necessary in some wet braking system and especially in wet clutches like a motorcycle has. ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-08          159231

Yes, kthompson, I have seen it written "Nothing runs like
a Deere.....with a Kioti chasing it!" And that is funny!
Actually, there are a lot of good tractors out there. I
liked the way the Kioti was built and operated, and the
dealer was very easy to deal with. Some people think that
it is a second rate tractor but mine is about as good as
it gets. My best friend has a "big name tractor" and it has
10 more hp than my Kioti yet my loader will pick up more
weight than his. His smokes all the time, especially on
start up, and drinks fuel. My Kioti barely smokes on cold
start-up and I can run on half the diesel that he uses.
His dealer is awful...high prices for shoddy work.
Only time will tell with the service for the Kioti.
Amsoil and Mobil-1 are both API rated. You could argue
about synthetic vs regular oil forever. I started using it
in my tractors in 1982 and the difference was so great that
it is all I have used for years. Transmissions going south, engines burning oil and cams going flat in trucks I used to move the tractors stopped when I switched to synthetic motor and gear lubes. I could write a research
paper on all of the testing I have done in my shop with
oil and filters over the last 25+ years.
For me it was a business lifesaver. I really enjoy having
a vehicle or tractor last way past it's regular lifespan.
Again, only time will tell.

Luckyfly
....

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AnnBrush
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2009-01-10          159272

Happened to see this in Popular mechanics vol 186, no 2 - Feb 2009, page 92. Looks like the synthetic only after x hours of "running in" is a urban legend for modern vehicles (copied verbatim):

Car Clinic by Mike Allen - Popular Mechanics Automotive Editor
Quick Change
I bought a 2009 Ford Escape hybrid in September. It just turned 1000 miles on the odometer. I would like to change over to synthetic oil. At what mileage would you recommend I make the change?

Read the owner's manual. Your Escape is already factory-filled with a synthetic; to wit: Motorcraft SAE 5W-20 Premium Synthetic Blend. So you can change anytime, although Ford's service manual says you can use a mineral oil if you choose. Many vehicles on the market today are filled at the factory with synthetics. I've never subscribed to the theory that you should use mineral oil for 10,000 to 20,000 miles to get the engine broken in before changing over.

End of article.
....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-10          159274

I'm no mechanic, but I think the article needs to be seen in context--Fords and more particularly the Focus. Plus that is a gas engine; we're talking diesels. Other considerations are vast like type of cylinder wall construction; if it has a cylinder liner or not; how all piston, rings and other parts were manufactured; advances in technology includuing materials and/or coatings; manufacturing tolerances--the list goes on.

I know first-hand from writing automotive service manuals, owners manuals and technical bulletins that just because a certain procedure isn't mentioned in a publication--break-in period for example--doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Many factors---firstly and namely dollars---drive why certain things are or not mentioned in publications. A publication goes through sometimes 5 different departments with many rewrites are reviews. Typically, literally things have to be negotiated behind closed doors with the writers, sales and the lawyers. The lawyers win everytime. ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-01-12          159335

EW that may be so. But so far no one has offered a logical mechanical reason that can be backed up by a reference as to WHY synthetics should not be used during breakin. In these cases my BS meter says "yep sounds like BS to me". ....

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Murf
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2009-01-12          159341

Ann, sorry I missed your question.

EW is of course right, it is because of the need for the rings to properly seat against the cylinder walls, as well as the need for various engine parts to properly achieve stress relief following the manufacturing process.

If it will help lower the reading on your BS meter, here's what John Deere themselves say about it in a roundabout sort of way;

"John Deere Break-In Oil
from John Deere product support

Background

The first 100 hours of operation are critical to the life and performance of an engine. During the first hours of operation, the rings and liners must seat (establish a pattern) for proper performance. If this does not occur, the life of the engine can be adversely affected.

This unique oil is formulated with special additives to allow the power cylinder components (pistons and liners) to "wear-in" while protecting other engine components (valve train and gears) from abnormal wear. These additives control piston and liner seating without scuffing. This oil also provides excellent piston deposit control. As a result, piston rings and liners establish a good wear pattern for maximum performance and extended engine life.

Important!

Do not use PLUS-50 oil or engine oils meeting API CH-4, API CG4, API CF4, ACEA E3, or ACEA E2 performance levels during the first 100 hours of operation of a new or rebuilt engine. These oils will not allow the engine to break-in properly."

Now in this case JD talk of 100 hours because that is the drain interval for the "break in" oil that the unit is filled with from the factory. However in other factory publications I've read (but can't lay my hands on this instant) they speak of using "conventional" oils for no less than the first 250-500 hours of use in order to ensure proper break-in.

There is other data out there, including the article you quote, but as was already mentioned, don't think for a moment the engine in a Kioti DK40 and a Ford Escape hybrid are even remotely similar in many things, especially manufacturing processes and the materials used.

My most recent car came from the factory with Mobil 1 synthetic in it. I suspect however a hand-built AMG engine is not quite the same as a diesel built in an Asian plant.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-01-12          159352

It's not a slam dunk, looks like it has to do with the quality of the engine manufacture process. Here is a good article:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-breakin.htm ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-12          159353

I think AnnBrush has it right. GM has used synthetic as a
factory fill for their Corvettes and some of their Cadillacs for years. Like I said before, everything I bought since 1982 has had synthetic put in it since new.
I have taken brand new generators out of the box, filled
them with synthetic, started them up and the engine never used oil. Same for $12,000 Zero Turn mowers, cars, trucks and tractors. My Kioti has synthetic in everything
including the gear box on the mower. It would seem to me
that in 27 years if you could not use synthetic in a new
engine I would have had at least ONE engine go bad.
Sorry, it didn't happen. I'm sure people get a lemon every
once in a while and say, "Oh , that sorry synthetic oil
ruined my engine!"
I have used synthetics from BMW engines all the way down to
cheap lawn mower engines with no problems.
Tell you what. You go buy a new John Deere, use dino oil
in it and in about 25 years when it dies call me and if
I'm still alive I'll take my Kioti (running on synthetic)
and use it to drag your worn out tractor to the scrap
yard! And I won't burn any oil doing it!
And that's the truth!
....

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kwschumm
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2009-01-12          159354

My guess is that it depends completely on how tightly controlled the machined tolerances are when new. My brother told me a story about the difference between Japanese and US automotive manufacturing. In the US they would machine cranks and cams to tolerances like +/- 0.005". In Japan no tolerance was allowed - it was +/- 0.000" (which really is +/-0.0004") but you get the idea.

It seems to me that if an oil is particularly resistant to pressure then it would certainly permit less wear. I remember one new car I had that was switched to synthetics after 10k miles, after 100k miles I pulled the heads and it looked new. You could not tell on the lifters where the lobes made contact (OHC engine).

Anyway, this is all anecdotal. If anyone wants to research this you can probably find all you need at this site. ....


Link:   Bob Is The Oil Guy

 
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Murf
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2009-01-12          159356

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnBrush | view 159352
It's not a slam dunk, looks like it has to do with the quality of the engine manufacture process.


Very well put! That was EXACTLY my point in the first place.

You can't merely say that because a hand-built, finely crafted engine can run synthetic from day 1 all engines can do the same.

If conventional oil provides sufficient lubrication, and regular changes keeps it clean, what more can you gain by throwing away $100 worth of oil every 100 hours instead of $20 worth of oil?

Best of luck. ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-12          159358

Murf, here may be your answer.
1. In 1993 I purchased a new Isuzu pickup. It came with 3
free oil changes from the dealer. I did not use them.
Instead, I installed an Amsoil By-Pass oil filter on the
engine along with a regular Amsoil spin on oil filter.
The Amsoil By-Pass filter takes out particles down to a few microns. I put in Amsoil 10w-30 synthetic oil and
drove it to 40,000 miles. I changed the oil and both filters and drove to 80,000 miles then to 120,000 miles.
Basically, I changed the oil every 40,000 miles. At
120,000 miles I took off the valve cover and set the valves. It looked like a brand new engine inside, did
not use oil and the valves were about as close to specs
as you could get. I sold the truck at this time and bought
a bigger truck to pull a tractor.
2.The Ford tractor I ran for 40 years without an overhaul
had this set-up put on it in 1982. I changed oil and filters every two years in it. After 40 + years it did
not use oil.
The point is that with good filters and quality synthetic
oil you can extend these 3,000 mile, 100 hour oil changes
and maybe do a little something to try and save our
planet.
I would have changed that Isuzu 40 times with regular oil where I did it 3 times with synthetics and good filters.
I really feel like I'm doing what I can to save our
resources. Maybe it's not going to save the world, but it
helps.
In my life, I have seen a lot of equipment die way before
it's time because people did not know how to take care
of it. Go into the excavation business for a few years
and you'll find out what breakdowns and worn out equipment
can do to your bank account.
I guess I'm poor but I need my stuff to last and last.

....

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Murf
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2009-01-13          159397

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyfly | view 159358
The Ford tractor I ran for 40 years without an overhaul had this set-up put on it in 1982. I changed oil and filters every two years in it. After 40 + years it did not use oil. The point is that with good filters and quality synthetic oil you can extend these 3,000 mile, 100 hour oil changes and maybe do a little something to try and save our planet.


Just out of curiosity, how many hours did that tractor have on it at last check?

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-13          159404

Luckyfly,

If we lived in a perfect world, I'd have no problem going far longer between oil changes in my tractor. However, one of the biggest problems facing the compact tractor owner is the amount of moisture than accumulates in the hydraulic reservoir, due to condensation.

Oil changes are necessary on a regular basis, due to the fact that humidity levels and temperatures cannot be controlled in any outdoor environment.

It's not uncommon to find a relative recent oil change containing a LOT of water after only a few months time in the great outdoors.

I drain the water out of my air compressor once a week. I drain the oils on my tractor far less often, but I ALWAYS see evidence of some moisture in the oil. I wouldn't feel one bit comfortable changing my oil any less often than I currently do.

We've had reports of people finding fuel cans half full of water after sitting in the garage over the winter. The same thing happens to a tractor's engine oil, as well as the hydrostatic transmission, axle housings, as well as any other ventilated reservoir.

Synthetic lubricants are great. They provide far better lubrication properties than standard oils. However, there is no difference between the two types of lubricants when factoring in the environments they are exposed to. Using a synthetic oil doesn't reduce the amount of dust in the air. They don't reduce the amount of humidity, nor the changes in temperature that a piece of machinery is exposed to. And synthetic lubricants don't reduce the amount of rainfall received each year, nor the amount of snow that must be moved each week.

When factoring in the climates most farm tractors are exposed to, the type of oil used isn't a big factor at all. Keeping that oil clean (no matter what type it is) and free of moisture, is a far bigger issue.

Joel ....

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kthompson
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2009-01-13          159423

Joel "
Synthetic lubricants are great. They provide far better lubrication properties than standard oils. However, there is no difference between the two types of lubricants when factoring in the environments they are exposed to. Using a synthetic oil doesn't reduce the amount of dust in the air. They don't reduce the amount of humidity, nor the changes in temperature that a piece of machinery is exposed to. And synthetic lubricants don't reduce the amount of rainfall received each year, nor the amount of snow that must be moved each week."

I am not sure you are correct. No sir. I went to synthetic in my tractors and the amount of rain until it was changed was way down. So per the testing I did, with synthetic oil in engine you get less rain. Affected my whole state as we went into a serious drought condition. My testing was done over a two year period. This is as long as some who have tracked global warming and we know how accurate that is. :-)
....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-13          159428

To answer your question: One of the tractor's hour meter
broke at 18,000+ hours. Ford had a couple of their engineers look this backhoe. They had never seen a gasoline engine run this long and were interested in talking to me about synthetics. I really had a ball talking to these guys. I got my money's worth out of that
backhoe! It probably had over 20,000 hours on it.
You guys made a very important point about getting
water in your hydraulic (or gear lubes). This is very hard
on equipment and it can cost $$$$$$ if you let it go on
for very long. It will cause gears to rust, seals to fail,
pumps to go out, bearings to fail, etc. This is probably
one of the most overlooked things that people do when
they service tractors. If the hydraulic or gear lube looks
the least bit milky (and it will if it gets contaminated
with water)you need to dump it ASAP!
My Kioti is parked in a shop out of the weather but for
years and years my old Ford tractors were out in all kinds
of weather. I had special covers that I made to put over
areas on the tractor where water could get in and do
damage. Sometimes you can't help it and you're working
in the rain and you can't stop. That's just life.
There is nothing you can do about the weather but you
can do something about your lubes.
Try this test. Get 4 small, clear plastic or glass
containers with lids. Half fill one with regular hydraulic
oil, one half full with regular gear lube, one 1/2 with
synthetic hydraulic fluid and one half full with synthetic
gear lube. Fill each with water to where they are about 75% full.
Put labels on them, put on the lids and shake each one
the same amount, then set them on a shelf for a while.
The next day look at each. The results are very interesting. Do not use a semi-synthetic, use a full
synthetic. Water is bad in all lubes, but the synthetic
can protect your parts much better. This is an extreme test, but you should see the difference in regular and
synthetic lubes.
....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-13          159429

Kenny, ol' boy, are you back to smoking that whacky tobbacaky AGAIN? ....

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hardwood
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2009-01-14          159441

Lucky;I never traded off/abandoned a car or pickup truck because of engine of transmission failure. a Taurus with 230 or 40K, a little four cylinder Chevette bought new and survived two college kids, till the bodys fell off both cars. Pickups I routinely trade every two to four years depending on MY economy. We farmed for 46 years, I overhauled two or three farm tractor engines, never a combine engine, not from lubrication problems but from antifreeze in the oil. I'm still using an H Farmall my dad had overhauled in 1958. How would Synthetic oil have benifited me? Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-14          159442

Frank, I used Amsoil in my '95 Dodge Ram 360 gas. My buddy had a similar but newer truck. We were up north where it was 10 below. He was worried mine wouldn't start--his wouldn't at that low a temp. I crossed my fingers and voila! it turned over like it was a summer's day! SO to answer your question, at the very least using Amsoil is much less taxing on starters and batteries. ....

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hardwood
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2009-01-14          159444

EW - 1, Frank - 0. Next round. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-14          159448

Frank,

It got down to -43 degrees in some of the smaller towns northeast of me last night. We reached only -27.

Without synthetic oils, few if any vehicles would have even turned over, but my wife made it to work just fine with the block heater plugged it for about an hour.

If I'm not mistaken, the Super UDT in my Kubota has a pour point of somewhere in the -45 degree range. Colder than that, it would take some determination and effort to start any vehicle.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2009-01-14          159450

I always chuckle when I get those sales pitches about the synthetic oils and the "2 micron" filters the companies are flogging.

It is paramount to a person going to the car dealer to buy a new hatchback and the salesman telling them what they really want is a tractor-trailer!! "Look at all the room for groceries in THIS little baby!!!" LOL

To put it in some perspective, a micron is 0.00003937007874" or a little less than 4/100,000 of an inch.

So, a 2 micron particle is a little smaller than 0.00008" or 8/100,000 of an inch.

Now, one of the tightest clearances in a typical engine is that between the ring and the cylinder, it is ~0.003" or 3/1,000 of an inch.

So at that rate, you could stack THIRTY SEVEN 2 micron particles on top of each other and still have clearance between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Hmmm, over-kill maybe?

Oh well, I have to go start up the tractor-trailer now to take the little lady to the store for milk and bread now....... ;)

Best of luck.




....

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hardwood
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2009-01-14          159451

The Grand Daughter told me that a nonometer is one billionth of a meter, so naometers, microns, my flding rule only goes to sixteenths. Maybe thats why Dad's H never wore out, it has enough old microns built up around the pistons. Ok, now on the serious side I think I posted on this once before. Whatever years the Farmall 1086's were new a friend of mine bought a new one and immediately drained the breakin oil, filled it with a popular brand synthetic, and said it was good for 500 hours. He changed it twice at 500 and 1000. Then at 1200 it was drinking oil, he was upset, suied the company,(His Father was a lawyer), I don't know if they won or not, but no more synthetic for him. Frank. ....

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kthompson
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2009-01-14          159455

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 159444
EW - 1, Frank - 0. Next round.


Before you give the score ask about the batteries...or out of gas or anything. Realize who you this is you are dueling. :-) ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-14          159461

Murf ol' boy you gotta stop hangin' 'roun' Kenny---it's TANTAmount, not PARAmount. He-he. Sorry, bud.

(Kenny's scratching his head, "whadayallmean--I don't never heard a eitha") ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-14          159464

Frank,
You asked how you could have benefited from using synthetic oil. Maybe
you could, maybe not. I did.
My wife worked at DFW Airport and we lived 35 miles away. She blew
a head gasket in a Chrysler New Yorker and it dumped about two quarts
of antifreeze into the oil. This particular model was notorious for blowing
head gaskets. The oil got contaminated somewhere after she left our house
to go to work because I checked the oil that morning. When she pulled into
the driveway smoke was pouring out of about everything. I checked the
synthetic oil and it was about a half gallon too full and it looked like milk.
The next day my mechanic replaced the head gasket and it ran for years after
with no problems. Perhaps, the synthetic saved me an overhaul.
You said you farmed for 46 years and only (only???) overhauled two or
three tractor engines. Farming is not like running a backhoe in an
excavation business. My neighbor is a farmer and his tractor sets most of
the winter. A backhoe may run six days a week, daylight till dark for months
on end in all seasons. The home building in Texas was wild for 30 years.
If you had ran a farm tractor like this you would have probably overhauled
a lot more. Also, heat breaks down oil. I really don’t think the summers in
Iowa get as hot as they do in Texas.
As far as the story about synthetic oil ruining your friend’s tractor…
well, listen to my one sad story about synthetic oil.
I put Mobil 1 in my first wife’s Pontiac when it had 43,000 miles on it.
Within 3 weeks she filed for divorce and ran off with my best friend.
Damn that synthetic oil!
Your friend bought a tractor that was a lemon. He bought a piece of junk.
Maybe, his wife should have run off, also!
I benefited by taking care of equipment and by using high quality filters
and synthetic oil. It paid off for me. I don’t have any idea how much
money I saved by using synthetic oil. I’m sure I saved a lot.
Maybe I didn’t benefit one bit by doing this.
But, FYI: I retired in 2002 at the age of 55. Did synthetics help me retire early?
I really think it helped.
On a lighter side: I am doing a lot of work on my “Ranchito” and the Kioti
really has it’s work cut out this week. Hopefully, I can get through this week
without overhauling the motor…….

Luckyfly

....

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hardwood
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2009-01-15          159470

Lucky; No, on the contrary my friends wife didn't leave him, they had six or seven kids. She must have been trying to comfort him in his tiome of greif. ....

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Murf
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2009-01-15          159480

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 159461
Murf ol' boy you gotta stop hangin' 'roun' Kenny---it's TANTAmount, not PARAmount. He-he. Sorry, bud.(Kenny's scratching his head, "whadayallmean--I don't never heard a eitha")


I just HATE this spell checker some days.......... :( ....

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Murf
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2009-01-15          159481

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyfly | view 159464
Your friend bought a tractor that was a lemon. He bought a piece of junk.


That's a pretty definitive statement to make with little or no facts to back it up and LOTS of scientific evidence that says otherwise.

Or do you have some evidence or proof that nobody else has?

Best of luck. ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-15          159497

I certainly did not mean to upset anyone. I have heard stories for years like:
“My second uncle’s brother’s mother’s cousin’s father says synthetic oil is no
good and it ruined the gasoline engine that powered his mini bike which was
his only means of transportation to his job as a shopping mall security guard”.
My heart goes out to these poor souls, but in reality it was probably
something else that caused the engine to fail. Maybe a grasshopper flew into the
intake as he was flying down a hill. I never saw a mini bike with an air
cleaner!
Here is an example of things that can go wrong. I was mowing with my Kioti
and it only had 2 hours on it when the cruise control would not work,
then the mower started making a weird sound. I stopped the tractor and it
would not start. So, like the synthetic oil that ruined this friend’s engine, was my
new Kioti tractor defective ? Is this tractor a bad product like synthetic oil?
After doing some checking, the tractor would not start because the shift lever
was not exactly in neutral. I was not pushing the button all the way down
on the cruise control to activate it and there was a piece of wire hung up under
the mower. Duh? It was the “nut behind the wheel” that was the problem.
It was a new tractor and I was not familiar with it or the controls.
My friend bought a new New Holland, used it 2 days and it quit. He called
me screaming that he was going to take it back, that it was no good, on and on.
I checked it out and the diesel tank was dry. He had run out of fuel!
Don’t believe all of the stories about synthetic oil ruining engines. In probably
almost all of these stories something else was wrong . I’m sure they could produce
a bad batch of oil. I’ve just never heard of it.
Kioti tractors are great, synthetic oil is wonderful, and most tractors don’t do
well at the drag races. And that’s the truth!

Luckyfly
....

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Murf
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2009-01-16          159514

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 159341
Your friend bought a tractor that was a lemon. He bought a piece of junk.
[QUOTE=Murf;159341] "John Deere Break-In Oil from John Deere product support.

Important!

Do not use PLUS-50 oil or engine oils meeting API CH-4, API CG4, API CF4, ACEA E3, or ACEA E2 performance levels during the first 100 hours of operation of a new or rebuilt engine. These oils will not allow the engine to break-in properly." [/QUOTE]

Lucky, trust me, when you say "Don’t believe all of the stories about synthetic oil ruining engines." you're preaching to the converted here.

We don't believe the stories about the carburetor that Jeff's Great-Grandpappy invented that got 300 mpg but a big oil company bought it so it wouldn't put them out of business either.

But, when a company like John Deere makes a statement like that above, and please note, it does NOT talk of synthetics even just the oil they RECOMMEND for a broken in engine is on the list.

It is a known, scientifically PROVEN, FACT that engines need to break in. Period. For the diesels in farm and other heavy equipment this is doubly (or more) so.

A large diesel engine reman. shop here (Cat, Cummins & Detroit factory approved) runs each engine on the test stand for 8 hours before it even goes back in the chassis. Then they require (for a non over-the-road application) in order to get a warranty, another 250 hours with break in oil during which time the engine CANNOT be run WOT, at a continuous RPM, including idle, for more than 1 hour. The oil must also be changed at each 50 hour mark with nothing but BREAK IN oil.

They are quite well known for the durability of their engines.

They also strongly advise against running synthetic oils in an engine with less than 500 hours since they deem them not yet fully broken in.

I think I'll listen to one of the worlds biggest and oldest diesel manufacturers and the biggest (in this country) engine remanufacturers before I listen to "My second uncle’s brother’s mother’s cousin’s father" who has had excellent results running synthetic oil in the 5 or 6 engines he's had experience with.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-16          159521

Murf. Murf. Murf. It IS true about my great uncle (not grandpappy) and the carb turbine thingy. It wasn't 300 mpg; it only doubled the mpg. If yer gonna slander me get yer facts straight, buddy! :)

Hey Murf is Canada, Ontario in particlular going digital TV? I haven't got my convertor yet, and still want to see Ch. 9 and 32--especially 32 (not for the after-10pm nudity but informative TV). ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-16          159545

O.K., as far as I know there is no such thing as “break-in oil”. I’ve never
seen it. There is non-detergent, single viscosity, old API rated oil, but no
“break-in oil”. Do they have it at Wal-Mart?
I have heard that the only way to break in a diesel engine is to run it
on “break-in” oil exactly 49.687321 hours at exactly 1,476.8856 RPM.
This has to be exact or you will ruin the motor.
Drain the oil and strain it through a pair of pantyhose worn by some
beautiful college cheerleader and check for pieces of steel or aluminum.
If you find none, refill the engine with more “ break-in” oil, but this time
have the oil and dipstick blessed by a priest. Crank the engine slowly
and when it starts have a holy man sprinkle the blood from a virgin
chicken on the engine until the RPM reaches exactly 1,476.8856.
Don’t let the people at KFC see you do this!
Again, run the engine exactly 49.687321 hours. Do this exact
procedure 87 more times and then the engine is “broken-in” and ready to
put to work. If you do not do this your engine will end up like
Luckyfly’s, because he just fills them with synthetic from the time they
are new. Because of this his engines only last 40+ years and they never
use oil.
Hmmmm, could Luckyfly know something the priest, holy man and
John Deere don’t. Could it be that after 35 years in business Luckyfly
showed Ford dealers things that opened their eyes about engines.
Ford had a problem with their power steering seals on their 60’s and
70’s tractors. To fix it by the dealer was very, very expensive and they
said they would not guarantee it to hold until you got home. I figured
out how to fix it for a dollar or less. The last one I repaired lasted over
20 years.
My point is, most of these dealers don’t know everything about
repairing tractors and less about lubrication.
I’ll take a brand new engine, put in synthetic oil and a top tier filter,
keep the rpm on the low side (or what they recommend) and off I
go.
I ran my Kioti most of the afternoon pushing dirt into a low area
in my front pasture. I was running in 4 wheel drive most of the
time because the dirt had been piled up for about 2 years and it was
really tough. The HS transmission in low range will really move some
material. I’m going to put the backhoe on it tomorrow so I can break
this stuff up before I try to pick it up. I LOVE MY KIOTI!!!

Luckyfly


....

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kwschumm
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2009-01-16          159546

LF, click the link below and then you'll never be able to say you haven't seen break-in oil before. ....


Link:   JD Break In Oil

 
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kwschumm
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2009-01-16          159547

Of course, since Joe Gibbs thinks engines need break-in oil too it must be a conspiracy... ....


Link:   Joe Gibbs Break In Oil

 
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earthwrks
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2009-01-16          159548

KW--you'll have to speak up--we couldn't hear you over Lucky's chest-beating.

Lucky, maybe your (self-absorbed?) moniker is based on just that: luck. Extrapolate that to your supposed success in the business world.

As others have found and you will too--maybe the hard way--that there is wealth of knowledge AND experience that rivals yours.

If you haven't noticed yet, I doubt you will, so I will inform you now: We have NO tolerance for emotionally-charged, madman, bullshit rantings like your last post and supposed know-it-all arrogance here. And it's ESPECIALLY NOT tolerated when that runs counter to what we know and have evidence to be true.

We're not shy about "showing the door" as it were, to guys like you. I'm saying what others are thinking--and it's just about decision time. So either tone it down, act civilized or you won't be wanted around here. It's that simple.

....

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crunch
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2009-01-17          159552

EW, your post might be the most arrogant post I have ever seen on tractorpoint. You are threatening to to remove someone from the forum because they disagree with "what is known in this forum". This is what I was afraid would happen when we went to "monitoring" the forum. We went from negative rants (yes overdone) to threats of censorship.

LF started this thread, has said nothing negative. Are you an editor? If not then stop the threats! ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-17          159555

Crunch: Me? Aarrogant? Apparently you did not read ALL the posts in the thread. So I suggest you read them ALL THEN make comments.

BTW, it's not a threat. It's not censorship. And no, people aren't "removed"--where did you get that idea? Seems like you want to read something into it that isn't there.

But I can see why you would feel that way because you're cut from the same cloth as your buddy LF. Not politically-correct enough for you? Ask me if I care.

I calls as I sees 'em. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-01-17          159557

Let it be known that even moderators cannot kick anyone out of here.

EW, what did you find offensive about LFs post? It's sarcastic, sure, but we should be able to disagree here without getting personal. It's supposed to be fun around here.

Getting back on-topic, I've rebuilt a half dozen engines and am convinced that engines need a break-in period. I'm also sold on synthetics after that break-in period.

It would be nice if we could buy a few identical engines and test the theory, but that takes time and money. Unless someone can point to a study that has already been done using oil analysis and pre and post break-in performance measurements we're left with manufacturer recommendations, anecdotes and personal experience.
....

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hardwood
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2009-01-17          159559

I'm not in charge of anything here, and don't want to be but it's time to bury the hatchet and go on, plenty has been said ....

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Luckyfly
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2009-01-17          159560

I stand corrected! Now I can say that I have seen “Break-in oil”! But, is this
really a “product” or a way for JD to make more money. I would really
like to see this stuff go into an independent lab and have it analyzed. I would
imagine that it is a low detergent oil with a lot of detergents and dispersents
in it . Nothin’ too scary about that.
BTW: I was going to run my Kioti today….but…..I remembered that I have
SMWF oil in it. That oil can only be run on Sunday ,Monday, Wednesday,
and Friday! What to do. What to do? Either I change oil to TTS oil ,or I wait
until tomorrow. I wonder if someone makes a MTWTFSS oil? Then you
could run your tractor every day.
And as far as Earthwrks comment about “know-it-all arrogance”, I’m not
arrogant, I’m just stating facts:
1. I’ve run tractors since I was 7 years old.
2. I’ve used synthetic lubes since 1982.
3. I have run many engines without break-in oil.
4. My stuff seems to last forever.
5. I retired early.
6. I ran a small truck 40,000 miles on synthetic oil without oil changes.
(Three oil changes in 120,000 miles)
7. I’m known by a lot of people in my area as a guy who can make
cars and equipment last.
7. I was testing oil in my shop in 1985 and the experiment went bad, blew
up and I ended up in the emergency room. It is funny now , but I learned
some neat facts about motor oil.
These statements are not Urban Legends are hearsay. They are facts.
We are trying to learn something here in this forum.
I’m sorry if I ruffled anyone’s feathers.
I think Kwschumm said it all:
"It would be nice if we could buy a few identical engines and test the theory, but that takes time and money. Unless someone can point to a study that has already been done using oil analysis and pre and post break-in performance measurements we're left with manufacturer recommendations, anecdotes and personal experience."
I sent a lot of oil out for analysis back in the 80's.
Oil analysis will give you a good idea about what is going
on inside an engine, but it is time consuming and it can get expensive. You have to send samples several times of
the same engine to really know what is going on. I found
a cam lobe on a friend's truck about to go flat through
oil analysis. If done correctly, it works.


Luckyfly.
....

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Murf
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2009-01-19          159586

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyfly | view 159545
Your friend bought a tractor that was a lemon. He bought a piece of junk.
[QUOTE=Luckyfly;159545]O.K., as far as I know there is no such thing as break-in oil. I've never seen it. There is non-detergent, single viscosity, old API rated oil, but no 'break-in oil'.

Hmmmm, could Luckyfly know something the priest, holy man and John Deere don't./QUOTE]


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me." ~Dudley Field Malone


"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." ~Abraham Lincoln


Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-01-19          159587

Have you guys figured out who has the biggest shotgun yet, when you do let me know and y'all can come back inside for a cup of tea.

I though we established on page 2 or 3 that it went like this:

Very good cylinder honing and tight specs on engine manufacture and assembly = not much "break-in" time needed and synthetic oil OK to use in "break-in"

Rougher cylinder walls and more relaxed specifications met during engine manufacture = more need for end-user "break-in" and synthetic oil not OK during break-in.

So the decision to permit synthetic oil use during break-in is based on the manufacturing process and specs tolerances used to make the engine.

Its like a discussion of weather to use a foaming or non-foaming (automatic) washing detergent for your laundry, it rather depends on the type of washing machine you have (automatic or not) and discussions comparing the two are moot because your washing machine will only take one type. ....

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kthompson
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2009-01-19          159601

I have not read ALL post here but often think of heavy equipment company I worked for. We used Cat, Cummins, Detroit and Deutz engines. All diesels. As to break in periods and oil used, really no idea what oil we used but know we did use the same in each engine regardless of brand or season. It came in tanker truck and stored with no lables. Sure hope the purchasing department knew what they were doing and have no doubt all engine companies gave their blessings on that oil.

What I do know if how those engines were treated. After probably an most an hour on them more like 30 minutes we took them and ran them at full rpm with throttle locked for at least 20 but more like 30 minutes testing all cicruits and operation of all parts. In the summer the transmission oil temp would climb to about 140 degrees if memory is correct just from the operation with it in neutral. Read, the hyd system got hot! The only load was the operation of the systems but that was very sufficient. Then repairs and leaks fixed. Then to load test site where the engine was rull at full throttle for 5 to 10 minutes and varing loads in between. But that full throttle run always made me wonder about the break in period and easy treatment we are suppose to give engines. There is no way there was never an engine rep in our plant to know that.

Oh, if you want full rpms on first fire up, had a detroit that had locked throttle and had it not been no breather was installed so cardboard over intake save it that baby was going to blow...the building was emptying and one cool headed engineer save it.

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