Go Bottom4100 metal shavings
 | Eric D.
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2001-01-25 23692
Hello 4100 owners. I have 55 hrs on my 4100 hydro. I love the tractor and loader combo at this point. I recently changed the transmission fluid and filters. When I removed the rear transmission filter screen I was dissatisfied to see many manufacturing metal shavings sucked into the screen by themagnet. These weren't wear shavings but drilling shavings from drilling the castings.I called the dealer and they claim this was normal. They said at times they have filled a half coffee cup full of metal shavings on larger models. I ask if other manufactures (Kubota, New Holland, etc) had the same shavings. The dealer said yes. This particular dealer is also a Kubota dealer. My question is, do I have reason to be concerned? Do you think I'll have problems in the future? The only problem I have hadhas been bad leak down in the lift cyclinder of my 410 loader. The dealer rebuilt bothcyclinders and it works great. Is it possible some of the smaller shavings couldhave filtered into the loader cyclinders anddamage the seals? Thanks for any input
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2001-01-26 23693
I think it's common to find considerable metal during the break-in oil change. Perhaps it says something about modern manufacturing processes, but I think it's common. On the other hand, maybe it's not just modern manufacturing. When I removed the cylinders on my '69 Honda 750 motorcycle, I was surprised to find an area under the cylinder gasket that was still packed with casting sand. I don't think the leaking loader cylinders could be attributed to metal in the oil unless the hydraulic oil filter wasn't installed correctly. All oil to the hydraulic system goes through the filter before going to the cylinders. ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-01-26 23699
Eric, I'm glad to hear that your 4100 is treating you right.
You hear about this a lot these days....about metal shavings not being completely cleaned out of the castings. It must be related to modern manufacturing, because 30 years ago it was unheard of. Like you, nobody likes it, but the good news is that I can't recall any failures that could be attributed to the metal shavings. Trash left in the machine from manufacturing is one of the main reasons why every experienced mechanic recommends that you change the oil and filters at very low hours. Check the archives, the subject has come up several times. On a new machine I'd change them after the first couple of hours of use, again at 25 to 50 hours, and then go to regular intervals.
On the seal failures that I have seen, most of them have been seals that were defective from the beginning or were installed poorly. The next most common cause is shafts that are not concentric to the seal body or have too much play. I can't recall one that was ruined by trash in the oil; my feeling is that it is not very high on the scale of things to worry about. ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-01-26 23703
Eric, Tom, and Roger, You are correct about the source of the metal contamination coming from the housing drilling operation. I'm a tooling engineer for an aerospace company and work closely with manufacturing engineering. This condition is unacceptable in the aerospace industry but is commonplace in automotive manufacturing where the loss of a gearbox or transmission will not result in the loss of life. In aerospace manufacturing we generally flush the casting a least twice, once after the drilling operation and again after the final surface finish operation. All holes and areas are flushed using an enviromentally green solvent. The Japanese, long considered the masters of assembly line manufacturing, will not add an extra operation if they don't feel it necessary, even if the potential for an occasional product failure results. It is a calculated risk they feel comfortable with, if something breaks because of it, then the warranty system has been "engineered" to take into account the random incident. We consumers, on the other hand, have to aborb the grief that goes along with the repair. Incidentally, you are lucky that your housing is steel or cast iron, many are aluminum and the shavings aren't picked up by the magnet. Such is the state of today's modern high rate production. ....
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| Eric D.
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2001-01-26 23714
I would like to thank everyone for replying to my metal shavings issue. I just signed up with CTB and was suprised to see such a quick response, it's great. It sounds like it's normal. I also e-mailed John Deere on Wednesday night. Today when I got home there was a message on my answering machine from a John Deere Rep. She said she was reviewing my e-mail and would like me to contact her on the 800#. I think this says a lot for Deere&Company. I'll let you what she says. Got to go, just got two inches of snow, not much but enough of a excuse to get on my tractor. ....
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| Mike S.
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2001-01-26 23720
Eric--Although Roger could not remember any failures related to these metal filings, metallic contamination has been an issue with some of the 4200, 4300 and 4400 Deeres and has been mentioned before. My 4400's transmission needed to be replaced due to metallic contamination--the suction screen was full of metal filings, the hydro filter was clogged with fine metallic dust and the hydro transmission fluid also contained a lot of fine metallic dust. JD DTAC recommended a transmission fluid change on my tractor at 50 hours instead of the much longer interval mentioned in the manual AND they also issued a much larger hydraulic fluid filter. This is my experience and does not necessarily relate to your situation with your 4100 which was manufactured by Japanese workers in Japan instead of the JD workers in Augusta, GA. There have been several postings about metallic contamination in the 4200+ in the compact tractor forums, but I have never seen any postings about metallic contamination in the 4100 Deeres. Good luck ....
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 | cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York 
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2001-01-27 23728
Eric, I changed the oil on my 4100 at the first filter change interval even though the dealer didn't suggest it be done when I asked (I don't remember what that was, 50hrs??). My kubota dealer not only suggested both hyd. oil and filter change at around 50 hours, but supplied the filter, oil and mechanic to do it. I did notice shavings in both but never experienced any problems. A fella that lives down the road from me is a J/D mechanic and told me that their dealership was experiencing an above average transmission failure rate on those machines. Take that for what it is worth, they had only been on the market for a year at the time and that is one dealer, not a good sampling. I did not have a problem except the hydro pedals progressively became more resistant to pressure even with good lubrication. It appears to be a well built machine, I liked mine. My most recent purchase, a TC29D doesn't recommend an oil change for several hundred hours. I did it after the first mowing season at 80hrs. This machine has two (expensive) hyd. oil filters on it and I found absolutely no evidence of shavings in the oil or anywhere else. I went with N/H multi-vis oil which helps in the cold. Next change both the engine and trans. get synthetic. Happy Motoring! ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-01-27 23729
Hmm...Mike, I see what you are saying. Maybe it would help if we drew a distinction between metal "filings" from failing components, and metal "shavings" from incomplete cleaning of the drilling and machining of the castings. I remember your transmission problems - glad that you got the entire transmission replaced! Did JD step up via warranty? My impression is that you were seeing a lot of small particles clogging everything and of course that is typical when a system goes bad for some reason and starts to grind itself up. From what Eric is seeing, his shavings are from a different reason, and one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
I still think that Eric's shavings ought to go away without damage with a couple of oil and filter changes. If not, there is another issue. In my opinion, no major manufacturer has ever specified an oil change as soon as the machine is run for a day....maybe because to do so would imply that they are not cleaning the new assemblies well enough. In spite of this, every experienced mechanic that I know changes the oil on their own machines several times at low hours for that very reason. How about it? Any of you old mechanics want to jump in here? ....
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| Mike S.
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2001-01-27 23734
Roger--the metallic contamination, as JD calls it, came from not cleaning out the millings from the machining of one of the castings. It is my belief that my tractor was NOT unique in this issue. Did JD notify owners or recall 4200+ tractors that might have had metallic contamination, bad front end, etc.--of course not. BUT, thanks to a very supportive dealer and six trips of my 4400 back to the dealer for JD authorized warranty repairs and upgrades, it received a new transmission, new brakes, new PTO, new transmission site glass, new dash glass, new front end, and all of the upgrades (mostly linkages)that were available. Now, for the first time in the 19 months of its ownership, it is fully operating as it should. I doubt if Eric's metal shavings are related to the metallic contamination that has been found in 4200+ tractors since his 4100 was manufactured in Japan where they probably were smart enough to thoroughly flush out the castings before assembling them. ALSO, I have never seen any postings on any of the three tractor forums about anyone with a 4100 having transmission failures due to metallic contamination. BTW--when my tractor was beginning to have transmission problems at about 40 hours, I was notified by my dealer that a DTAC bulletin was issued which recommended a transmission filter and fluid change to be performed at 50 hours instead of what was listed in the manual, and the transmission filter on the hydros was twice the size of the original--so JD was aware of the metallic contamination issue on the 4200+ tractors. Mike S. ....
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| Mike S.
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2001-01-27 23735
PS--to my previous post: Eric--one of my Kubotas went ten years with a total repair bill of under ten dollars and each time I cleaned its hydro transmission suction screen, there were metal shavings present on the screen, and it never had any transmission problems. When I posted the same question as did you about the amount of metal found on the suction screen when I changed fluid at 50 hours on my 4400, there were several respondents that indicated that it was perfectly normal. Mike S. ....
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| DFB
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2001-01-27 23739
Okay, I'm confused about the source of these metal shavings. I thought the 4100 HST cases were aluminum and that is why JD doesn't recommend a backhoe, the strength is not there. Also when I attempted to use a magnetic oil heater it wouldn't stick to on the HST case. What else could be responsible for the steel particles, gears or brake component wear in? ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-01-28 23760
DFB, I'm going to go out on a limb and attempt an explanation based on some problems I've encountered with helicopter main and intermediate gear box housings. I really do not know enough about JD products but I'll make an educated guess from my visits to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries helicopter division. We use magnesium and aluminum castings that undergo many machining processes, with a manual flush after each is finished. We tried the Japanese system of robotic flushing and it failed to reach all of the critical areas. Many of our bearing bosses receive a hardened steel insert that has an undersize hole, the insert is NC pressed into position, however, it is CNC center indicated drilled to final finish for receipt of bearing or bush. Mitsubishi uses this method also across its manufacturing product line, as does many other Japanese manufactures. We manually flush the steel out, they use robotics to flush. Another possible explanation is Gear chip contamination. We don't have a big problem with gear chips, but the auto industry does, and some Japanese manufacturers use powdered gear technology which has a high chip/failure rate. Maybe the JD units use this technology. Many sush problems with metal as was discussed here is the result of a breakdown in the quality assurance system due to a faulty robotic flush system. At any rate, the only loose metal in any gear box or transmission should investigated by the manufacturer. I like the idea of a ten hour whole system fluid change with new filters, then another at 50 hours. It sounds like JD is making an honest effort but you've got to keep the pressure on them. One last word about today's manufacturing, and that is, many products we think are 100% American have foreign made components. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is disastrous. ....
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| DFB
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2001-01-28 23761
Ted, sure final machining of steel inserts could certainly factor into the contamination found. Since I have 4100 with less than a 100 hrs I'm curious if there is aluminum shavings floating around or is the magnet just doing what its supposed to do picking up steel particles as part of a normal wear in. At any rate it since the concensus seems to indicate the HST may have undesirable elements in it that can't be conclusivly explained it looks like I'll have to drain my system far in advance of the factory recommended 500 hr change interval just to be sure. I'm certainly interested in hearing more about this. ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-01-29 23772
DFB, I am amazed at the urban legends about Japanese manufacturing that have arisen around products like Honda and Lexus. Japan does manufacture excellent products, however they are not infallible. And the truth be known, America is still, but by a small margin, the most advanced manufacturer in the world. The technology to make any automotive product; car, truck or tractor, is known around the world. The same knowledge is known to the Japanese, as it is to the Chinese, as it is to the Brits, etc. Tractor design and manufacturing is universal. So, if this is true, then why do some brands enjoy such a wide following? This is because of two basic reasons: perceived quality (what you think is quality), and actual quality (how the product performs over time). A manufacturer that has both perceived quality and actual quality will prevail, an example of which is Kubota. My harshest criticism of American manufacturers' infatuation with the policy of "offloading" work normally done by American labor to save a buck is that the manufacturer loses its control over the manufacturing process. An American company that decides to have part, or all, of its product made abroad must have its own quality assurance presence "in-house" at the foreign manufacturer. An American company that does not, must trust the foreign QA process (a BIG mistake) and runs the risk of a higher rejection rate. Many American manufacturers try to have a rotating team of American inspectors on hand in the foreign factory, but this is costly, has American employees angry, and angers the foreign manufacturer and his workers. American companies will inspect the foreign product upon receipt on our shores, but things like sealed transmissions are hard to examine without disassembly. I know that Deere and Co., which has a very diverse product line, entrusts its foreign manufacturers to do a large portion of the QA. They do need to tighten control of the process if they expect to keep their reputation intact. Deere, like GM, Ford, Cub Cadet - you name the company - all must look for ways to offer something better than the competition, for less. Less means that somewhere quality of one sort or another will be in jeopardy. You don't need to hear a dealer tell you that metal chips or filings or any other foreign body in something as important as a transmission is "normal" or acceptable. It most assuredly is not. Don't roll over and accept this because it is wrong from an engineering standpoint, and from an operational standpoint. Would you buy a boat with holes in the hull, and accept it because the dealer tells you that a certain number of holes is acceptable. Would you be content with a new tractor that leaked fluids constantly just because your dealer says its "perfectly within limits?" So I say to every consumer, if you find something wrong about the product that you've shelled out your hard earned cash for, go after the dealer, and the manufacturer. Even if the dealer fixes the product to your satisfaction, let the manufacturer know that you are not happy. Don't let them mistake you for being a "good ol' fool", instead of a "good ol' boy." Complain and fight back, this is your right as a consumer, and if enough people complain, then the manufacturer will have to make adjustments to the build plan. Maybe even bring some of the work back home, at the very least, tighten quality control efforts. Very few manufacturers today can be trusted to do the right thing, all of the time, and they know that if they cross the line too many times, you just may give your money to someone else. ....
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| DFB
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2001-01-29 23775
Ted, your a funny guy. You use this issue as reason to malign John Deere and build up Kubota while at the same time Kubota has the same issues according to owners who do their own maintenance. Any manufacturer has problems especially the big four American auto companies. Many owners of Kubota cite price as the major influence for buying Kubota over another brand. Lower price is reflective of cost savings somewhere along the line such as material strength or processes such as stamping vs castings. Fact is there many satified owners of all brands for many reasons. ....
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| DFB
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2001-01-29 23776
Ted, your a funny guy. You use this issue as reason to malign John Deere and build up Kubota while at the same time Kubota has the same issues according to owners who do their own maintenance. Any manufacturer has problems especially the big four American auto companies. Many owners of Kubota cite price as the major influence for buying Kubota over another brand. Lower price is reflective of cost savings somewhere along the line such as material strength or processes such as stamping vs castings. Fact is there many satified owners of all brands for many reasons. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-01-29 23778
The subject gets philosophical and distant from tractors. However, a question is whether manufacturing processes in 'emerging economies' are incapable of high quality processes or whether N.A. corporate managers can run lower cost (equal to lower quality--no magic here) processes more quietly somewhere else. If it's the latter, then roving N.A. based QC teams are irrelevant.
Poor quality does eventually come back to haunt though. I threw a new chain saw, bought at a box store, in the junk pile. It never cut one thing. I replaced it with a Husky. The box store product was entirely disgusting, and I learned a lesson. The company, which originally was renown and built a city, moved its manufacturing to Mexico. Its recent products just aren't serious. However, I don't blame the Mexican arm of the company or its workers. I assume they are working to specifications from the U.S. parent company, and I blame the U.S. managers. I assume they decided that would be more profitable to milk a widely recognized name into ruination then to actually compete by building a quality product.
On the positive side, the Husky 257 is a joy to use and there is actual dealer support (rather than an 800 help line and shipping charges). Every time I remove a cover I am impressed by the quality of the castings and machining--there is no comparison to the thing in the junk pile. I continue to notice small design things like the cover screws that don't come out of the covers. You don't loose them when you're doing maintenance on a tailgate. I'll bet there weren't any metal shavings inside either. Guess I should have looked around a bit. Around here in logging country, orange means Husky, not Kubota.
I'm biting my tongue to avoid the temptation to return to philosophy. Although, I suppose in this media, I should bite my fingers instead.
....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-01-29 23779
DFB, you have missed the point entirely. Yes, to be sure there are problems across the board for every manufacturer and it was my intent not to "malign" Deere as you put it, but to give you some insight into the causes of the metal problems described by those who contributed to this thread. I don't own a Kubota, I don't own a Deere, and if Kubota has the same issues then too bad for them because it will tarnish their reputation just as it has Deere. Regardless of who makes a product, sloppy workmanship is unacceptable. TomG makes a strong point in his posting about the philosophy of today's manufacturers and what he did in response to it. However, if you have such strong feelings for the brand, then don't ask questions if you aren't prepared to hear the answers. ....
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| DFB
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2001-01-29 23780
Brand loyalty is not an issue with me. Its no secret the 4100 is built by Yanmar. I agree poor workmanship should be unacceptable for the consumer. There is entirely to much low quality products being produced today. I'm just trying to understand if the metal particle contamination originally being discussed is going to be a problem to the life of the tractor. Seems to be a common discovery. It would be great if a lot of this work came back to the states. Will it? I don't know. ....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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2001-01-29 23781
Bringing the WORK back to the states is one of the reasons Deere is having so many problems with the 4000 series. The quality would have been better if Deere had let Yanmar build the entire line. David ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-01-29 23782
DFB, my opinion, based on twenty-one years in manufacturing engineering is yes. Regardless of who builds the machine, this condition is a problem that should not be ignored or glossed over. The only stuff that should be in the box is the approved fluid and parts. Sooner or later, metal debris will cause a failure from gear tooth lash/lockage or unwanted bearing friction. How much later is the question, this would not be good if it happens after the warranty is up. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water though, I'd demand the strip down and flushing of the assembly, from my experience this is the only way to be sure. Good Luck and I sincerely hope all turns out well. ....
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