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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-18          49461

I am a homeowner with a little over 12 acres of land--mostly wooded. I'm wanting to buy a tractor for things such as mowing (finish mower), light grading, yard mainteneance, etc., and would like to find a tractor with a front end loader to suit my needs. I intend to purchase another 45 acres in the near future, and plan to use the tractor to landscape various areas of the property. What type and size of tractor would most likely suit my needs? I want enough power, but at the same time don't want to spend the money for *too* much tractor. Thanks!

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slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2003-02-18          49464

I would recommend 25-40 HP. Check out the mahindra, Kioti, Branson,Century tractors. South Korean tractors with a good reputation and about 25% less than the green/blue/orange ones.

I think you will need at least 30 hp for what you will use your tractor for.
....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-18          49465

Where do I shop for these tractors? I live in western NC near Asheville, but am only familiar with John Deere, Massey and New Holland dealers. Also, in truth, is their dependability as good as the others or close to it? I certainly would like a 25% savings, but if it will be in a state of disrepair often I'd rather pay for a "local" tractor. Also, if they break down, what tractor companies will honor the warranty and make the necessary repairs? Thanks! ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-18          49470

Slowrev is right, The Korean makes are a great deal and very worthwhile looking into. If you want a Hydro, you must stay with the traditionnal JH, NH, Kubota, Massey. Then the price difference becomes even greater. Because of all the corporate intermingling, the makers of Century/Branson make JD's in Korea and also make Cummins engines. The 4 cyl C/B use the same engine as a JD4710 for about $6000 less. Any website has a dealer locator, there should be a good selection near you. If you have trouble finding a site, contact me by eMail and I will send you all the URL's
Pacesetter ....

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mopars
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4 ny
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2003-02-18          49480

hi,i've been looking at tractors too.one important thing to remember is a good dealer as well as money.a good dealer is very important as your tractor will need things at some point.also i would go and sit on and drive different models,i have eliminated some just by sitting on them,just don't fit me good.another thing about the hydro,it seems like the hydro is the way to go for tight spots and lots of back and forth work like loader work.just my thoughts as i am getting closer to a final winner. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-02-18          49481

4310/4410 with a 430 loader & 72 in. belly mower. Maybe a MX5 or a Landpride 2660. ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-19          49507

When you say "hydro", do you mean a hydrostatic transmission (automatic?). What are the big advantages and disadvantages of this versus a maual shift or shift on the go tranny? As for the Korean tractors, is there on inparticular that seems best?

By the way--thanks for everyone's input on this and the New Holland message areas. ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-19          49508

A few months back I stopped by a JD dealership and looked at the 790 and 990. Any drawbacks to these tractors? The 990 (I think) has 30 PTO HP and I was quoted a price with a FEL and 4WD of around $16,500. Is that high/low, etc? ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-19          49510

One bad thing about these tractors--finding prices to compare! The Kioti seems every bit as expensive as some of the JD and NH models I've looked at, and I just can't find pricing at all on the Century and Branson (I even looked on the machinerylink web page). The Mahindra seems very reasonably priced, but I can't find new model pricing. Anyone seen pricing for the 3510? It's the 35 HP 4WD model. Speaking of which, I've been told I *definitely* need 4WD if I get a FEL--does this sound like good advice?

And again--thanks for everyone's input and assistance. ....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2003-02-19          49515

As a JD salesman, I try to steer people away from the 790. It's a good reliable tractor, no doubt, But just for giggles, price a 4210 with the std 9/3 trans.

You will find, for very few more dollars, you are getting some things worth mentioning.

* A folding ROPS
* Better Hyd Capacity in every category
* More ergonomic oporator's station
* The 4210 is matched with the 420 loader
( The 420 is twice the loader as a 70, and still much
better than the new 419, check out the specs for
yourself)
* The 4210 has a LIVE pto, not a 2 stage clutch like the
790
* The 4210 has a larger fuel tank
* You will not notice the lesser HP of the 4210 compared
to the 790, really, you won't. The 4210 has a std 9/3
trans. the 790 has an 8/2. Better gear selection will make
up for the less power...easily.
* The 9/3 trans on the 4210, is sycronized. It will
shift much smother than the 790.
* The 4210 can be equiped with up to 5 hyd circiuts.
* The 790 has external brakes, if you are oporating in a
dirty or wet enviroment, these will require more maint.
than the enclosed brakes on a 4210.

Add all these things up and see what you think. Also, check it out against some of the other brands and models listed in this post. You will soon see what I am talking about. ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-19          49516

Jonathan, Hydro is similar to automatic in a car, no clutch. If you equate it to driving a car, think of driving on the interstate vs. city traffic. Loader work & mowing would be like traffic. Working in a field would be like interstate. The automatic doesn't make much difference on the highway, but the manual sure is a pain in traffic. A manual is OK for loader work, but it really should be a shuttle shift or it gets old quick. Economy tractors like the JD990 do not have shuttle or automatic available.
The price you were quoted for the 990 seems a little too low. It should be around $18K. There isn't much dealer margin in those tractors so the prices don't vary much.
Kioti took a big price hike in the fall. Still compare apples to apples they are a good value. There are a lot of standard features on Kioti that you pay extra for or are not available on say a 990. I have not heard anything bad about any brand of Korean tractor that would cause me concern. Ten years from now, we won't have this topic.
Pacesetter
....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 563 mo
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2003-02-19          49528

mrethics sounds like your really hammering the 790 as its one of deeres best sellers here in MO.the 4000 series do have at lot of bells and whistles but when it comes to getting work done the 790 is no slotch.I can say this prouldy beings ive been working along side buddys 4310 for the last two weekends and my 790 can do everything his can and i spent alot less money.the 790 is not for everyone, just the guy that dont have thick wallet but still has work to be done. ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-19          49542

I have to agree with mrethics on this one. What he is talking doesn't sound like bells and whistles to me. Plots, possibly whatever you're doing doesn't really test the potential of both machines. Significantly more loader capacity, more hyrdaulic capacity, syncro transmission and an independent PTO are the meat and potatoes of what a tractor is about.
JMHO
Pacesetter ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-19          49555

Errg! So much to think about and consider. I stopped and shopped at the local John Deere/Massey store, and they recommended that I think about buying a 18-24 horse model right now (even used), and look to getting the higher horse at a later date. Money is quite a constraint for me right now (all good--my wife is pregnant with our first child!), and thus spending $20,000 just isn't feasible for me. Would I go wrong looking for a smaller tractor? A used tractor? Or should I look for a new smaller tractor in the Korean models? Lastly, a friend dropped off a catalog for Northern Tool & Equipment company. They sell a 20 horse tractor, 4WD, live PTO, etc for $6300, or $8500 with a FEL. They also have a 25 horse model for $1400 more, and a 30 horse model for $3700 more. Has anyone heard of them before? Are their products made by a reputable company? Their prices seem awfully low... ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-19          49556

The link for the tractor I mentioned above is:

http://www.northerntractor.com/20.html

you can also navigate to the 25 and 30 hp models from there. I'd really like some opinions on these tractors as well as any information on who makes them, etc. ....

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Todd-AgEquip
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2003-02-19          49558

I would steer away from the northern books it's somewhat cheeper made tractors. For your situation I would look for something used before smaller you will need about 30+ hp anything less and you will drive yourself nuts when you go looking for equipment. You can find good used tractors anywhere Check out Fastline mag or Fastline.com. Make sure to check out plenty of tractors. Make sure to check and see about parts for the tractor and service. If you go new make sure you can get warrenty work done close by you don't want to have to take it to another state everytime something goes wrong. We have been dealing with the Eicher tractor for a couple of years and it seems to be a nice tractor for the money. ....


Link:   

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-19          49565

Jonathan, The Northern tractors are made in China. They come with a six month warranty. Quality tractors come with a two to three year warranty. After is starts falling apart, you won't be able to give it away. Finding a used tractor is an alternative, but don't forget you loose the financing options. It makes a big difference when the gap between new and used is only a few thousand dollars.
Pacesetter ....

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Kyle_in_Tex
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 24 Austin, Tx.
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2003-02-19          49578

Jonathon, the true costs of a tractor need to include resale. If you get in a cash bind and need to sell, a good brand will bring you back most of your money. Especially if you buy a used one and take good care of it. I'd recommend to take your time, look for used model of popular brand and be ready to buy if one comes available. Also, buying from a good dealer might get you some warranty. Someone to ask questions to with local knowledge is a plus. Parts availability. If you can buy for $10-12K, use it for 2-3 years, then sell,trade, move up or whatever, doesn't it make sense to buy something that holds its value?
Just my two cents...Kyle ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-20          49595

All very good points. I had never heard of Northern Tractors before, and it seems they aren't very highly thought of. I would much rather buy used and get a good quality, well-known brand for resale value as everyone has stated. I've been looking around, and to get a top name brand in the 10k-12k range, it's difficult to find 30 hp unless you look to older models. I've seen some 45 and 50 hp tractors in that price range that are 1970's models and such--should I try to stay newer? Lastly, someone told me yesterday that buying used was just inheriting someone else's problems. Do you all think this is true for the most part? (I know it's not going to be the case 100% of the time). I know *nothing* about tractors and diesel engines, thus I wouldn't know if I was being sold a lemon or not. ....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 563 mo
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2003-02-20          49602

pacesetter your right but when your talking obout saving money as jonathan has been posting,thats were the 790 falls in.ya loader cap. hyd cap.is something to think about but were talking 755 for 419 loader vs 757 on 420 loader lift cap .and 9.9 gpm on hyd pump for 790 vs 12.3 for 4210 thats not alot of difference for the extra bucks.although the 790 only has one trans option it does have live power pto. i guess what im saying is lots of bang for your buck with the 790.sales men always try to bump you up to next model.790 will do same work as 4000 series cheaper. ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-20          49605

Jonathan, You can find a lot of low hour use tractors out there for around $12K- $14K. They will not be the 35HP plus class III units. Generally they are low hour units that were bought and found out by the owner to be too small for their needs. Then they trade up to the larger machines. If you can profit from someone elses mistake and let them take the depreciation hit, great. Those machines usually are not problem machines from a mechanical point of view, only from a physical limitation aspect. While you have your smaller parcel, get one, learn on it and trade up with the knowledge of what you want and don't want. Once the initial depreciation is realized you won't take much of a hit. In the smaller machines, be sure you get a hydro. Gear transmissions of any make do not sell as well as hydro's and also depreciate more. Once you get into the 35+ HP tractors it becomes less of a factor. Do NOT buy a '70's utility machine, they are not what you are looking for.
Pacesetter ....

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Jonathan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Minnesota
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2003-02-20          49615

Okay--speaking of utility machines... I grew up on a piece of land roughly the same size as I own now (12 acres or so). My Dad had an old Ford Jubilee that I used to mow the fields every few weeks or so. Now... what makes the newer tractors better? Did the old jubilee have a live PTO? If not, exactly what *is* a live PTO? His Jubilee has (I think) 35 HP, but I've been told the new 18 hp Deere/New Holland/Kubota would have much more power than the old jubilee.

I do like the idea of going with a smaller tractor for now--especially if I need to stay with newer models due to price constraints. It was mentioned above that I would go nuts trying to find attachments for less than 30 hp. I've browsed all over the web, and it seems the biggest hindrance is *size* of attachments. For instance, a 36" tiller is good fo 15-30 hp, but a 72" needs 35 hp minimum. A 72 inch will obviously do a lot more work quicker, but the smaller one will still do the same work--just not as fast. Same with finishing mowers, bush hogs, concrete mixers, and the whole array of attachments--they seem to be made for lower HP tractors--they're just smaller than the attachments you can use on a mid or full-sized tractor. Is this a correct assumption on my part, or are there attachments you simply *cannot* use with a smaller tractor?

I would like to reiterate once again my thanks for all the patience and input from everyone in this thread. Due to your input I've probably saved weeks of research just to get to the point of understanding I'm at now, and questions have been raised that I likely would never have though to ask. ....

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NCSUGrad98
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 Western North Carolina
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2003-02-20          49618

Since I'm posting every day I thought I'd join up and get a user ID. I'm the wannabe tractor owner formerly known as "Jonathan" in this thread! ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-21          49699

You seem to like the 790 and want everyone to justify your feelings. plots1 loves his and if you get one you might also. mrethics pretty much summed up the difference. Personally I couldn't even fit on one comfortably at 6' 225. All Cat 1 implements will fit a Cat 1 hitch. Think if you've got a 15 acre field, do you want to use a 4' rotary cutter or a 6'? Because of the lift capacity and hydraulics, everything you use on a 790 has to be smaller that a 4310. The machine works harder, you work harder, but you save some money.
Pacesetter ....

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NCSUGrad98
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 Western North Carolina
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2003-02-21          49700

Well, I'm not really looking to have anything justified--I just want to get a tractor that can do what I need. If I *need* the bells and whistles, well, I guess I'll end up getting that. I looked at the 790 and 990 because they were introduced to me first when I went by the JD dealer. The prices were great, but I didn't know/underdstand the drawbacks.

If, however, size is truly a problem, then I'm SOL on a 790. I'm 6'4" 230 pounds, and I definitely want a tractor that will be comfortable. Someone mentioned the TC30. I'm looking at a few used TC29 4WD's--are they roomier than the 790? Lastly, the non-hydro portion of the 790 is a drawback. With the work I'll be doing there will be lots of stop-and-go procedures.

All-in-all, this is a very good thing. There's no hurry to buy the tractor at this point in time (although I want one NOW!), and I'm learning quite a bit from all the posts. One question I do have--what is an SCV? I saw this listed on the JD website. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-02-21          49702

Jonathan,

My advice to you is buy a heavier used 2wd tractor with gears right now.

I know I'm gonna catch some flack here by suggesting 2wd but let me explain. If you get a heavier 2wd, say 3000 to 3500 lbs, you'll be able to do loader work better than with a lighter tractor. There's some great bargans on 2wd tractors since everyone is wanting 4wd. I recently saw a JD 4600 collar shift without FEL for $11,000. This tractor had 250 hours on it and looked brand new. Say you bought that tractor and added a 460 FEL, you'd have about 15 grand in it. Later on, when you can afford it, you could sell this 4600 and buy a 4510 to 4710. You could keep that same 460 FEL and put it on this other tractor you bought, that has 4wd and ehydro or all the other goodies you can't afford right now.

Since the first person lost his butt by trading off the 2wd, you'll come out when you get ready to sell it.

Good luck and happy hunting
Billy ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-21          49703

You're a bigger guy than me! Sit on a 790, it will be the end of discussion. I agree that "bells and whistles" can be nice, but cause problems down the road. The 9/3 syncro in the 4310 elininates a lot of those features. Bells and whistles are not loader lift, hydraulic capacity, 3-PT lift and overall ease of use items like a shuttle shifter for loader work. The 9/3 syncro is better than most regular maunals including the 790. Shuttle is ice cream. After a long day you'll appreciate those features. SCV is selective control valve. It operates extra hydraulics if needed. One use might be a power angle back blade, there are many others.
The TC-30 is a great tractor and better suited to a big guy than the 790. It has an open platform, available hydro and even the 9/3 is on the right side of the column off the floor. Very worth looking at and about the same price as a 790. Don't forget the special financing with both NH and JD. NH is 3.99% for 60 months and JD (ending soon - maybe?) is $2500 down and no payments or interest for a year. Both very attractive offers. Keep having fun looking, it's almost as much fun as operating!!
Pacesetter ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-21          49704

Jonathan, tractors are like shoes, you gotta try it on yourself. I am 6-3 and 285 and quite comfy on a BX. Someone else might hate it no matter what his size and weight. ....

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NCSUGrad98
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 Western North Carolina
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2003-02-21          49708

Yup--I had *never* considered my size to be an issue--I guess I just assumed tractors had unlimited room since they aren't enclosed!

As for the various tractors, models and brands, I'll admit that I like the look of the NH over the 790. I've heard everyone speak of shuttle shift and hydro--are they the same? My take on them is shuttle shift is still a manual, but you can switch gears as you drive (sort-of like "shift on the go" in lawn mowers). This would suit me just fine if this is the case, but which tractors have this as an option/standard? Does the NH come with shuttle standard and you can opt for hydro? And do I understand correctly that the 790 has neither the shuttle nor hydro? Etc., etc.

Coming back to power. I think everyone missed my post on my Dad's Ford Jubilee. I have been told that even though his tractor has around 35 HP, it wouldn't even hold a candle to a 35 HP tractor today. Is this true? Could I do the things with a 20 HP that his 35 HP jubilee will do?

Lastly, Pacesetter--I think you told me the old 70's machines are not what I wanted. With that being the case, how far back can/should I go? I looked in the classifieds on this group and saw lots of early 90's and 80's models priced nicely. I still would like to look into new if possible, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Sorry--one last question. I noticed that you can buy hydraulic pumps all over the place. Could you not just buy a different hydraulic pump and have it mounted on your tractor if you needed more "umfh" in your hydraulics? Probably a dumb question, but I'm curious nonetheless. ....

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Pacesetter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 178 Maine
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2003-02-21          49713

Shuttle shift and manual are not the same. Shuttle is a manual transmission with a lever on the left of the steering wheel. You flip it up for forward and down for reverse. Most require using a clutch. Some of the fancier ones don't. 790 has a manual 9/3 on the floor between your feet, there is no hydro available. The NH Boomer series has a shuttle , the TC30 doesn't, but the shift is on the right side of the dash, much more convenient than the 790.
Coming back to power, your dad's Ford had a gas engine. Torque on a 35 hp diesel is much higher at a much lower RPM than the Ford. Check out the specs on a Chevy truck 5.3 gas 300 HP and the Duramax diesel at 300 hp. There's a huge difference in torque! Torque does the work so you feel much more power in the diesel.
For an old tractor, there's no cut off date, just the newer the better. I would be sure it's Cat 1 and has Power Steering. Adding a pump sounds like a lot of work to get what you should have in the first place. Then if you do, do the rest of the components match??? I would forget that idea.
Pacesetter ....

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NCSUGrad98
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 Western North Carolina
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2003-02-21          49716

Well, with any luck I plan to visit and actually try out a couple of tractors in the JD and NH variety. At least this time I'll go armed with a bit more knowledge!

My weekend is about to begin, and with all the work I have lined up at home my time online will be limited. I'll try to keep up with the posts over the weekend, but if not, I'll be back at full speed on Monday.

I wish everyone a wonderful weekend!!

One last question I do have... the JD dealer here in town also sells Massey Fergusons. I asked about them and he told me not to even consider a Massey. Supposedly, according to him, Masseys stay in the shop from the day you buy them. Anyone had much experience with MFs? I've seen some 90's model MFs for some great prices. ....

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plots1
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2003-02-21          49717

ncsugrad98 for a guy your size the 790 or tc30 are going to leave you sardeened, im 5-10 155lbs and my 790 is a little tight, and the tc 30 wasn't much bigger. i almost bought tc30, but got better deal on green machine.they are real comparble machines, but for a guy your size your going to need a larger framed model. start saving. best of luck with what you choose. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-02-21          49722

Most tractors are not a synconized transmission. Therefore you need to come to a compete stop before you change gears. The shuttle shifts allow you to shift betwwen forward and reverse only and are normally synco, but you need to be aware that it can be hard on the clutch.
The TC-30 is available as a HST.
Massey claims to be the largest selling tractor in the world. I would say that it depends on the model what their reliability is. They are generally less expensive than JD for the same features. I would think the Deere saleman is looking at his own pocket. What will give him the best margin. ....

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