Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284: Jinma Farmpro Agracat  -- Chinese Tractors Discussion Forum and Review Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284: Jinma Farmpro Agracat -- Chinese Tractors Discussion Forum

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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Jinma Farmpro Agracat Forum

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 08-21-2010, 19:38 Post: 173346
dnaraG_1M



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

I have no experience with Hydraulic steering problems, so I'm looking for some advice to find the culprit.

Symptoms:
1) Standing still: turning the steering wheel produces no movement of the front wheels.
2) Moving: I get very "mushy" steering.
3) Front wheels off the ground: steering is fine.

From that, it seems like there is not enough force being exerted by the slave cylinder...? First I checked fluid level - OK. Then noted that the lift, loader frame, and bucket seem to operate with normal force and speed.

That would seem to exonerate the Hydraulic pump. Yes???

Am I right that this only leaves the slave cylinder and the steering wheel control valves? If so, how can I determine which is at fault [replacing a good part is way too expensive for an old coot living on Social (In)Security!!!]

I did a close visual of each part and the connecting lines and found no fluid leaks or obvious damage. Since the slave cylinder is located low up front where all the rocks are, I am most suspicious of it. But, no leaks and no dents....??? Hmmmm. With only 122 hours on the machine, I would not expect failure, except for external damage...??

Can a cylinder go bad without obvious signs of damage?
Is there a cheap test method to find out?

If anyone have "Been there; Done that", I would appreciate a sharing of their wisdom.......

cheers,
johnd






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 08-21-2010, 23:52 Post: 173353
greg_g



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

Your steering cylinder is bypassing, a commonly reported problem with the 200 Series Jinma of any age. One thing that can cause it is forcing the steering wheel to turn when the engine isn't running. But since it's a common problem, most Jinma dealers carry cylinder repair kits.

//greg//






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 08-22-2010, 08:27 Post: 173355
dnaraG_1M



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

>Your steering cylinder is bypassing, a commonly reported
> problem with the 200 Series Jinma of any age.
Oh rats!, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do
a tear down. No such luck.......

>One thing that can cause it is forcing the steering
>wheel to turn when the engine isn't running.
Never done that; no purpose to it.

>But since it's a common problem, most Jinma dealers
>carry cylinder repair kits.
Guess that it's just part of Chinese Quality. [The
starter motor went out at about 5->6 hours. But no
problems since. Oh well......]

I thank you exceedingly much! Now that I know the forum
is here, I think I'll hang around and learn a thing or
two. Gotta feeling I may need that in the future (grin).

cheers,
johnd






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 08-22-2010, 08:52 Post: 173357
greg_g



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

The two biggest problems with the 200 Series starter motor are (a) dirt, and (b) insufficient voltage to the solenoid. Those who are not mechanically/electrically inclined will take the starter and solenoid to an auto electric shop for a good cleaning. That solves (a). Problem (b) can be remedied with the addition of an inexpensive Ford-type starter relay and some 10AWG primary wire.

//greg//






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 08-22-2010, 15:26 Post: 173361
dnaraG_1M



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

>The two biggest problems with the 200 Series starter motor
> are (a) dirt, and (b) insufficient voltage to the
> solenoid.
I sorta think that it was neither in this case. The first
5 hours were mostly futzing around, checking it out with
no "Down n Dirty" operation. The replacement starter has
performed flawlessly, despite the Texas Hill Country Dirt.

As far as the electrical system goes, being a retired EE,
I looked at it with a critical eye. Don't like some of
what I saw but IR losses on the Battery and Starter cables
don't appear to be a problem in my case.....not yet anyhoo.


>Those who are not mechanically/electrically inclined
>will take the starter and solenoid to an auto electric
> shop for a good cleaning. That solves (a). Problem
>(b) can be remedied with the addition of an inexpensive
> Ford-type starter relay and some 10AWG primary wire.
Amen to the low resistance cables!! Double Amen. We got a
'48 plymouth with a 6v system. Anybody for ought gauge
cables!!!! Turning 3 diesel cylinders with 12v is hard,
but turning 6 gas cylinders with (maybe)6v is d@mn hard.

Any particular Ford series relays? [Got a old '79 ford
150 laying around awaiting it's turn on the scrap heap.
Maybe I could strip out the relay for possible future
problems.....which I hope never occur.....fingers crossed.]

At any rate, I really think that I had a bum starter.
And - perhaps - steering controller. That said, I still
love my little jinma and would buy it again.......
It's a little rough around the edges, but still a
sweet machine.

cheers,
johnd






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 08-22-2010, 17:05 Post: 173362
greg_g



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

Could have been a bum starter. But years of working these Chinese tractor forums makes that the exception rather than the rule. Disregard if your tractor has one of the newer reduction gear starters. But if it doesn't, disassemble one - say a QD100C3 - on a brand new Jinma. Odds are it will be filthy inside. A compound of grease, metal shavings, dirt, salt, and moisture presents a physical resistance to pinion travel.

Then there's the wiring. Small gauge, sloppy crimps, cheap connectors all combine to result in a voltage drop at the starter solenoid. Solenoids like this need at least 10v to engage properly. 8v-9v and they'll chatter, but the pinion won't get thrown far enough to engage the ring gear. 7V and below, they just click.

It doesn't matter if you've got good voltage at the starter, I'm talking about voltage on the little wire that comes down from the starter switch to the solenoid that sits on top of the starter. When you find low voltage here, bypass all the losses with a relay like I mentioned above. When installed properly, it delivers full battery voltage directly to the solenoid - and gives the pinion the kick it needs to positively engage the ring gear.

//greg//





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 08-23-2010, 10:20 Post: 173376
dnaraG_1M



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

>Could have been a bum starter. But years of working
>these Chinese tractor forums makes that the exception
> rather than the rule. Disregard if your tractor has
>one of the newer reduction gear starters. But if it
>doesn't, disassemble one - say a QD100C3 - on a brand new
> Jinma. Odds are it will be filthy inside. A compound of
>grease, metal shavings, dirt, salt, and moisture presents
>a physical resistance to pinion travel.
Aha, I see what you mean!

Lack of cleanliness in a shipped (new)part is just another
way of saying a bum starter, I think. I did not suspect
that particular lack of quality control, but it does make
sense that such a starter would experience infant mortality.

>Then there's the wiring. Small gauge, sloppy crimps,
>cheap connectors all combine to result in a voltage
>drop at the starter solenoid.
Exactly.
And my little jinny surely isn't wired the way I
would desire.....

>Solenoids like this need at least 10v to engage
>properly. 8v-9v and they'll chatter, but the pinion
>won't get thrown far enough to engage the ring gear.
>7V and below, they just click.
Right.
But when my starter failed, it was (apparently)
a winding burned open. I.E. the solenoid did not chatter.
I could hear it click once and the starter made no attempt
to turn. Ammeter did _not_ show the sudden drain that
you would expect if the starter stalled and was drawing
max current with no back EMF to limit it. also didn't
show the pulsing current from a solenoid kicking in
and out, applying and removing voltage to the
starter.....??......


Returning to my original question, may I ask for a bit
of clarification - my fuzziness, not yours! When you say
the cylinder is bypassing, I assume that you mean the
piston seals are "leaking" fluid from one side to the
other, without "pushing" the piston properly. Is that
correct? If that is true, how would applying steering
input with engine shut down, cause failure? Is there
still too much hydraulic pressure left over when
the engine(pump) is shut down?

Sorry to be thick. Electrical circuits are usually easy
for me, but Hydraulic Circuits...well, sometimes, I don't
have a hint of a suspicion of a clue.............

thanks again,
johnd






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 08-23-2010, 13:02 Post: 173382
greg_g



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaraG_1M | view 173376
I assume that you mean the piston seals are "leaking" fluid from one side to the other, without "pushing" the piston properly. Is that correct? If that is true, how would applying steering input with engine shut down, cause failure? Is there still too much hydraulic pressure left over when the engine(pump) is shut down?

Your assumption is correct John, one or more of the seals has failed. A cylinder repair kit will stop that.

Now, the steering wheel thing. Once the tractor is shut down, the pump no longer exerts pressure on the steering fluid. But consider that there's no air in the system (or shouldn't be). That thing at the bottom of the steering column is the hydraulic controller. you turn the steering wheel one way, fluid travels direction A. Turn it the other way, fluid travels in direction B. The physical act of turning the steering wheel CREATES pressure through the controller. You turn the wheel, the controller tries to push fluid one way or the other. But since the pump isn't running, there's nothing to return the fluid. But given enough pressure on the steering wheel, the pressure has to go somewhere. In extreme cases, it ruptures a cylinder seal in it's attempt to return.

When the pump's turning, there's a relief valve to prevent this. But when the pump's not running - it's just the steering wheel, the controller, and the cylinder.

//greg//






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 08-23-2010, 14:09 Post: 173383
dnaraG_1M



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

>Your assumption is correct John, one or more of the seals
>has failed. A cylinder repair kit will stop that.
Got one on order (and a spare boot, just in case I
have fumble fingers!) from affordable tractors. They're
are almost neighbors - texas style, anyhow.

>way, fluid travels in direction B. The physical act of
>turning the steering wheel CREATES pressure through the
>controller. You turn the wheel, the controller tries
>to push
So there's where my misunderstanding was, Greg!
I *assumed* that the controller was just a set of valves
to DIRECT the pressure, not CREATE it.
Like I said "clueless".

In electrical terms, not a switch but a battery. D'oh!


Sooner or later, I learn a bit about the Hydraulics. Can't
see inside the "boxes", but have traced all the pipes and hoses. Mostly - along with your info - it seems to make
sense now. The only one that I haven't figured out yet
is the pipe from the "priority controller" to the female
Quick Connect next to the top link - no return pipe/hose!
I'm reading lots of old postings here so I suspect
I'll learn what I need to know before long.

The wealth of info is somewhat overwhelming, but thank
god it's here..!..

cheers,
johnd






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 08-23-2010, 15:19 Post: 173389
greg_g



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 Hydraulic steering problem Jinma 284

The priority valve (some call it a diverter valve) is sort of a feedback device. And understand that what I'm about to describe only happens when the engine is running and the pump is pumping.

Absent input from the steering wheel, the primary hydraulic circuit is simply pump>sump>pump. It's primary purpose is to work the rear lift. In the Jinma 200 Series, steering is a secondary or slave circuit.

As I stated before, the steering wheel provides directional input to the steering controller. Physically turning the wheel activates the steering controller, which in turn tells the PV that it requires fluid from the primary circuit. The PV opens, permitting fluid to enter the secondary circuit. The PV then routes this fluid to the controller which passes it on to the steering cylinder (and ultimately back into the primary circuit). Remove steering wheel input, there's no steering controller intervention, the PV closes.

//greg//






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Jinma Farmpro Agracat Forum

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