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 08-17-2003, 14:37 Post: 62009
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

My John Deere 4410 is equipped with the ehydro trans. and is rated at 28.5 hp PTO horsepower. Equipped with the power reverser transmission it is rated at 30 PTO horsepower.

My question is.......if the tractor sits stationary running a PTO generator; would my ehydro equipped 4410 develop the rated 28.5 PTO hp or the 30 PTO hp that the power reverser equipped tractor would develop. I understand that there is going to be a PTO hp loss due to the ehydro trans. and parasitic power train loss; but it this PTO hp loss all the time or when the ehydro trans is operating too.

I always thought that the PTO was hard geared to the engine, where as the ehydro runs off the hyd. pump which caused the parasitic hp loss. I would think that my 4410 parked with the gear range selector in Neutral would make the full 30 PTO hp. Which is the case? Can one of you shead some light on this issue as I would like to get the largest possible PTO generator my tractor can safely run without overloading it.

It would be for emergency use only which has been once in 11 years that a generator was needed. We get very little snow. Hooking up the tractor to a PTO generator mounted on steel rails or heavy pallet/wood blocks would be very simple and straight forward. I already keep about 100 gallons of diesel stored at the house anyway; it gets used in the tractor so it won't sit long enough to go bad. I plan to run the generator maybe 8 to 12 hours in any given day MAX, so I would not run up a ton of hours on my tractor over a period of years. I purchased a Generac 5 Kw gas generator back in 1994 after a freak ice storm took out the power for months around here for many. I have never used the generator since. If I had to use the this generator in the event of a power outage, I have doubts about how readily this generator would start after setting for so long. I always have a certain amount of gas on hand but not enough to last for very long if needed. I would think, in my case the PTO genny would be the way to go.

All I would need to do is hire an electrician to install a switch panel and hook up for the genny. What do you guys think? Is my reasoning sound, and to recap; what are your thoughts on actual PTO hp. produced from a stationary tractor. Sorry about the lengthy post.






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 08-17-2003, 14:46 Post: 62012
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

By the way. I just realized that the above post is my 800th post. Smile






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 08-17-2003, 15:32 Post: 62013
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

Chief, how long does it take to use 100 gal of gas, I just put the fifth five gallon can in mine this weekend with 53hrs. on the clock. tractor is 8 months old. 25 gals used so far . At that rate it would take the better part of 3 yrs for me to burn a 100 gals.






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 08-17-2003, 15:44 Post: 62014
Chief



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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

On average, I have been burning about 2.5 gallons per hour. I put about 50 hours on her so far this season and figure I will probably put another 10 - 20 before winter. Then it will probably sit for most of the winter. I imagine that I would go through a 100 gallons a season. I also keep 10 - 15 gallons of green dyed road taxed diesel too so I can put off a trip to the Flying J since it is a 70 mile round trip. I can save about 15 -20 cents a gallon there.






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 08-17-2003, 17:11 Post: 62024
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

Chief YOU HAVE OPENED A CAN OF WORMS HERE! The past generator debates got REALLY long winded.

My thought is: I have a little diesel tractor and a 175 gallon fuel oil tank for oil heat it only makes sense to use the tractor on a generator. If it snows and the power is out so what if the drive is full. If the grass needs mowing and the power is out so what. If a tree is down in my front yard so what. If I need to use the tractor for an emergency I'll unhook the generator for a couple of hours. No big deal.

The generator does not need to run 24/7. Long enough in the am to bring things back to life catch up on news, get fridge re chilled, etc. Noon or so for the fridge and heat if needed. Evening for same reasons and watch a movie. If really cold maybe get up in middle of night to move some air, We have a big wood furnace for heat and it needs air flow around it for a couple of hours and shut it down to idle for a while.

I really get tired of the whinning about ALL THE HOURS THE POOR TRACTOR IS GONNA GET. No body seems to whine about miles on their cars. I bought the tractor to make my life easier and if I wear it out making me comfortable, so what, I'll get another one. No big deal, it's only money and ain't nobody taking it with them. Guys are riding around in $45,000 pick ups and whine about the cost of fuel or even better where to save a $1.00 on a oil filter and then dump in $4.00 a quart synthetic oil. I drive a little shit box Geo Tracker 8 years old and will drive for another 2-3 years before I get another new one like it.

A couple of years ago they had a bad ice storm across the north country here, northern NY state. Many people were with out power for over a week. Roads buried with trees no body going anywhere. How long would the piddly ass 2or3 5 gallon cans of gas last in the gas generators???

How often does this type of thing happen? We've only lost power here for more than 4 hours 2X and never more than 15 hours in the 14 years we've lived in the woods.

Get the PTO Gen. Have a professional hook up your switch box. Enjoy the peace of mind.

Oh yeah I still haven't went and bought a generator yet either. I run 12volt lighting and 12volt fans for the furnace. Guess what I run them from.

Nuff whinning! Harvey






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 08-17-2003, 17:54 Post: 62025
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

Harvey,

I am on the same sheet of music with you right down the line! Great minds think alike ehh? At least when my CRS is not flaring up. Wink yeah right

But Harvey.........you forgot to say what you thought about my big question. Does the ehydro tractor PTO still produce 28.5 PTO hp even though it is parked in neutral. Or does it produce the 30 PTO hp that the power reverser transmission tractor makes?

I have been thinking more about it now and I see that the hydro pump is hard linked to the engine and is turning all the time, so maybe that is where the 1.5 hp goes. I guess I am thinking that I can get away with a 15kw PTO generator or if I can find one a 14kw. Monday I will call my dealer and ask them this question as well. Thanks for the reply Harvey.






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 08-17-2003, 18:31 Post: 62026
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

I did found the horsepower to kW requirement formula I was looking for. Granted these formulas are applicable for marine generator use, but kW is a kW and hp is hp. Should be the same requirements for our tractors. According to this formula (predicated upon an 80% generator efficiency rating) a 17kW generator would require 28.5 PTO hp. The chart states to use 93% efficiency if unknown so I use 80% to be safe. Just the size I was looking at. 17kW should be more than plenty for my needs. But it would still be interesting to find out exactly how much hp is lost with a stationary tractor? Sorry if I am getting into too much nitty gritty. I guess my test pilot and maintenance background is slipping through. Reminds me of when I used to do maximum power checks at altitude and having to figure the engine and aircraft torque factors using the charts and formulas. Don't miss that one bit either Wink yeah right






Link:   Link to formula 

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 08-17-2003, 22:23 Post: 62033
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

My ONLY real issue with the tractor and PTO generator is if I am not home. Not really that much chance of that for me but for other guys maybe. If you wife isn't familar with the tractor how is she going to do when the s*!# hits the fan? If there is a real bad weather situation,high winds, downed trees, blizzard, floods,lightning, etc do I want her going to get the tractor which she isn't familar with removing the brushhog which she's never done and trying to hookup to the PTO generator and then the house? Let's face it MOST power outages are not on sunny days with fair skies.
Then on top of this if she gets it going she has to go out and add more diesel to the tractor every few hours and maybe open the house oil tank and siphon more fuel?

I can hear my cell phone ringing- her:" Honey the tractor ran out of fuel" me: "Ok go get the cheater pipe and the big wrench, and then unscrew the cap on the oil tank in the basement and siphon some oil, then stand on the front wheel and pour it into the tractor" CLICK-divorce Smile

I know, I know we will do practice runs... yeah right like all those family fire drills we all do Smile

In this case the LP standby system wins hands down.

I always hope for the best but count on the worst and that is where the PTO generator might not be great. Now if your wife is inclined in these areas it may not be an issue. Even though I am home more than 90% of other guys I know I STILL got caught away when we got slammed with a blizzard last winter.






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 08-18-2003, 03:11 Post: 62039
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

Sorry Chief. I do not have a clue about a hydro gaining pto power sitting still. The are tested/rated on a pto dyno so I "assume" the hp is right as sitting.

Unless you have some serious electric draws 10-14kw is gonna be plenty, probably overkill. There are some threads about how to add up all the wattage... and then you gotta start motors... You can get a 17kw gen but you would only be able to produce what the tractor is rated for in hp. I would only wanna run 5-8 kw staring stuff etc. Would not want to lug the engine getting a big motor started. (big wood working tools etc)

Me thinks KISS applies.

I'd like one of those big disconnects they use on power poles several of the farmers here have those instead of switching devices.






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 08-18-2003, 06:45 Post: 62047
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 PTO Horsepower and Generator Question

Now that's a real interesting question and maybe Chief's dealer will have a simple answer.

I'm with Harvey and think the ratings are taken from dyno readings and the tractor wouldn't be moving. At least my manual states 'observed pto hp, and I imagine 'observed' means read off a dyno. Besides, I know that tires, pto and hydraulics do share power from the same engine. My PHA will lug the engine if it's bitting good and I try to pull up the auger with a lot of dirt on top of it. Sometimes going into a pile of gravel with the loader I have to clutch the tractor before the hydraulics will break out the bucket. If the tractor were moving, high traction should reduce power available to the pto, so what traction load would be chosen for the tests? It's got to be static I think.

On the other hand PTO specs for HST tractors are usually less than for gear tractors. I can't figure why a pto HP for a HST should be less than for a gear pto. I think most HST's in neutral just spin the swash plate on the pump around. There aren't many moving parts and no oil is moved. I don't know why that would take much power or at least more power than a gear TX. I think there's something here I've missed and maybe an answer will pop up in the next several days.

I forgot to mention in comments about oversized generators in another thread that smaller breakers can be used to better match a tractor to a large generator. It's probably not desirable to have to reset main breakers frequently if the load is subject to high surges but it's still probably better than having to restart the tractor or have motors overheat.






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