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Terracing my property

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Reberta Young
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2003-05-20          55152

How do I go about this Job with my new Kubota tractor? I have approximately 4000 sq ft on a 10 -12 percent slope that I want to put 4 or 5 levels in. the dementions are about 50 x 200. Do I begin at the top and work down or at the bottom and work up?

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TomG
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2003-05-20          55154

It's sort of a tough call. I think a 12% slope is almost 7-degrees, which is generally feasible to work with most tractors. It does depend on what's being done, soil conditions and the particular tractor though. A tractor having low CG, 4wd and ag tires would be an advantage.

If I were doing it and had confidence the tractor would be stable, I'd do it with my box scraper. My box is a foot wider than the rear tire tracks. I'd lower the uphill side of the box as much as I could with the side-leveler and then lower the hitch until the box end contacts the ground, and then a bit more.

I'd probably start at the top and work down. Some soil that the box cuts will come out on the downhill side of the box where the cutter is off the ground but some soil will remain in the box and can be dumped passed the end of the terrace. If you start at the bottom then soil from higher terraces will be dumped on the ones that are finished. I'd keep the depth of cut just deep enough so the box didn't fill up halfway across the terrace and carefully consider where the box is dumped. You probably don't want to end up driving over a steep pile of loose soil when on a side hill. If tractor stability is at all in question, you do have to be aware that if working top-down you'd end up driving over loose soil as you go down, which would increase chances of loosing traction and sliding. Using a box in like places side-thrust on it that would tend to push the rear wheels down hill.

It would take a number of passes before a level terrace would be cut. The side-leveler wouldn't have to be readjusted for each pass because the tractor will become more and more level as long as the uphill wheel rides in the cut the box is making. Using a rear blade would work about the same but it would dump all soil cut on the downhill side as the cut is made unless it's a blade that had end-plates. Angling the downhill side foreward would help keep soil on the blade. If I didn't have confidence working on the side-hill, the terraces could be dug going straight up and down with a loader and toothbar or possibly a box scraper.
....

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DRankin
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2003-05-20          55159

Reberta, what implements are you planning on using for this project?

If you have a rear blade you can work across the slope. If you plan to dig with the FEL you will probably have to work uphill. ....

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Murf
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2003-05-20          55169

Personally I think your trying to solve the problem the wrong way.

First of all, one of your guess-timates is off, 50' x 200' is 10,000 square feet, not 4,000. This makes a big difference in how much work you might have ahead of you.

Other than that, terraces have their own unique problems, and you may just be swapping one set of problems for another. If you have 50' of 12% grade for example, that is a 6' vertical drop over 50' of horizontal distance. If you use 4 drops (for easy math) it equates to 4 individual drops of 18". These will require either something to hold the soil back, or it will eventually slump downhill, or that they be graded to a maximum of 3:1 slope, or in other words, that an 18" slope be done over a 54" distance horizontally. Do this 4 times and you still have 216" (or 18 feet) of slope to deal with, and now they are even steeper than before, and so skinny that they are tough to maintain.

My suggestion to you would be to put a lot of dirt at the bottom of the slope (or take some from the top and move it down to the bottom), lengthening the horizontal distance of the 6' height difference, and reduce the overall slope to a more comfortable 5 or 6 degrees.

Best of luck. ....

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Reberta Young
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2003-05-21          55232

Murf
If I am trying to solve the problem the wrong way, then tell me what is the right way. I am very new at this so I will appreciate all the help I can get.
The 50' is not the grade, the 200' is. My slope is long and narrow. Does this make a difference. I plan to have wide terraces. There are 2 "roads" at 2 different levels running the length of the slope that will not be included in the cuts. The slope runs rather diagonally from the top SE corner to the bottom NW corner. Tommorrow I will measure more precisely the land, however, It will only be as accurate as my reach - (how high can I stretch at the bottom of the slope) ....

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TomG
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2003-05-21          55241

I anticipated 'novice' so I concentrated on some safety stuff. Working on side-hills is a bit tricky. I also figured the slope is the long way and the 4,000 sq. ft. was probably a portion of the plot that is more steeply sloped.

The side leveler is on the 3ph and levels an implement side to side. Most rear blades have their own tilts and swings but I have to use the 3ph to lower one end of my box scraper to cut side grades. A rear blade may be the better implement for the job, but they tend to push soil to the side rather than carry it on the blade front.

Grading is something of an art with either a blade or a box. I wouldn't expect to get good results right off and might practice on something less demanding first. If there are erosion problems on the roads, improving the, may be a good place to practice. Roads on slopes are generally crowned and ditched. Rock fills in the ditch slows down erosion. For severe problems, culverts can be run under roads to shunt flow to a terrace. Terraces can be planned to have good drainage angles of about 4-degrees to someplace desirable. Alternatively, if the roads traverse the slope then the ditches may have decent drainage angles. The terraces on the steep part might be channeled into the road ditches.

But, all this is sounding a bit elabourate. Murf builds golf courses and he certainly knows the better ways of doing things. His comments about the number and width of terraces should be thought about. If the 12% slope was over the full length of a 200' slope, there'd be a 24' drop. Terracing it in five steps would result in 5' walls that almost certainly would need retaining walls.

What you want to do may similar to old style irrigation. If land was sloped, the terracing needed to get irrigation ditches so they'd work could get very fancy. It just wasn't practical for a lot of land--guess that's why sprinklers became common. If I were doing it, I might invest in a laser level (I use a water level myself) so I could plot a set of constant elevation marks points for each terrace. If the slopes aren't constant and the steep slope traverses the plot, the constant elevation points won't be a straight line. If I wanted the terraces to drain to a ditch, I'd calculate end points that would give a 4% slope and eyeball the points in between. Now this is sounding really elabourate so maybe Murf has better suggestions.
....

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Murf
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2003-05-21          55256

Reberta, TomG hit on the key point I was trying to make.

If the slope is down the 200' length then your problem is even bigger (or in this case taller) than I thought at first. The vertical difference is 24' (at 12% grade) and if you want wide terraces then the vertical drop is taken up in few steps, meaning each one is a bigger step. Even if you broke it up into 6 drops, each one would still be 6' vertically. If you take 6 drops of 6' each at 50' in width, that is 1,800 square feet of retaining wall if you went that way. I don't know where you are located but in most places that would be at least $30,000 if you were to hire someone to build that much wall, even just from rock-filled gabions (those big wire baskets, ugly, but cheap and funcional). That is a big job, a really big job. Probably a lot more than you and your Kubota are ready for.

My suggestion would be to consider one of the following;

1) hire a local excavator to dig the hill back at the top, and fill in at the bottom to reduce the grade to a maximum of 6% grade, then you & the 'Bota spread topsoil over the new grade and start the new grass cover.

2) buy copious amounts of the special 'hillside' seed mix that the Highways people use now, it is a mixture of grasses that don't grow more than 6" or so, and wild flowers of various description. It will take a little while to achieve, but when it's doen you end up with a beautiful 'au naturel' hillside that never needs to be mowed, so grade is irrelevant.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2003-05-22          55321

The job Murf and I have been describing is the biggest possible job--assuming that the entire 200' slope is a 12% grade and that run-off is a problem.

The job becomes smaller and may even be 'Bota managable' if the object is more of a landscaping idea where the entire slope wouldn't be terraced. Same issues apply though and it may be good to have gone through the big job issues even for a modest landscaping idea. Everybody here likely would be happy to talk more about implement use.
....

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Reberta Young
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2003-05-28          55772

Murf, I assume that is short for Murphy.
Oh well that is beside the point, which is - I am very befuddled now. shows you how old I am huh?
This reply is for tom also.
Reviewing measurements and guestimates, which there are a lot of, I think this job sounds like too much for me, but what the heck, there actually is no rush, sooooo. Narrow end of property is 40' wide at the top, down a slope 142' which ends 60' across the bottom. That is not all, there is a slight slope across the width also. which i think I mentioned earlier. Is it imperitive that I know the grade degree/ percent exactly? As you go down the width of the slope each 10/12' section going lengthwise gets steeper. Judging this is very difficult. Is there an easy way to figure this without a lot of matimatical equations, and, if, the slope were as much as 20% at the steepest is it even feasable that I could do it - very very carefully?
My tractor is a Kubota B7800HSD with a box blade in the rear and scoup in the front. As stated before I am a novice, but a quick learner.
There is no real problem with erosion either on the roads nor the slope, I mainly want to do the tiering for esthetic value - making it look nicer - and, easier to walk around on, which I do at least twice a day over the total 2 1/2 acre property of which the part I'm talking about is called the north grove because it used to have 150 avocado trees growing on it.
Murf - an answer to an earlier question of yours - On another area of the property I hand dug a small terrace that gave me a 4' drop but did not need to use any thing to retasin it as there is a lot of clay in the decomposed granite soil, probably more than half. the only place on the property there is a wall is at the driveway level at the bottom of a 50' bank, the wall is 6'. I dont understand the ratio of degrees to a perticular percentage.
I now dont think I want some big formal terracing look, I live in a very rural area and want it to look naturally terraced. How can I get this effect?
Tom, Yes Tom your Plan does sound quite elabourate. Run off is not a problem. Is there any way that you could give me a very rough estimate of how huch something like this would cost if I were to hire it done. Course I do have my whole life to figure this one out - the kids are all gone and moved out of state ie no grandkids to watch or basbysitting to do, or, or, or.
Thanks Thanks Thanks!!!
....

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Murf
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2003-05-28          55798

Reberta, first of all, your assumption is correct, Murf = Murphy, Ted Murphy actually.

In order of the points you raised.

No, exact measurements are not necessary, but knowing what your up against is.

Yes, there is a fairly easy way to figure out grades, degrees is probably the easiest. Take a long straight piece of wood (2x4 works fine) and lay it on the slope, in the direction of the slope, and put a small bubble level, commonly called a torpedo level, next to it and adjust it to level and trace the intersection on the 2x4. A protractor from a child's math set will give you the degree of slope, being the angle difference between the top of the 2x4 and the pencil line.

The work COULD be done with your equipment, but it would be a big job, and complicated work like that on a slope to boot is not for the faint of heart, or begginers, IMHO. If YOU feel comfortable with tackling it slowly and cautiously then by all means, GO GIRL!

The big problem is the slope, wheeled machines with a relatively high center of gravity are the most difficult, you would normally want a tracked excavator for this type of job, both because they are a lot more stable, but also because they are SO much faster.

I have no CLUE what equipment cost are in 'your neck of the woods' or how many cubic yards of material is involved (time = money), since I don't know how drastic a change you want to achieve. I can however, tell you that any reputable contractor will be glad to come out and discuss the job with you, if you tell them straight out you are shopping for a ballpark price, and that you are willing to do the 'trim' or finishing work.

The other approach is to do it in phases, or tell them they can do it as 'fill in' work, lots of times there is a couple of days between jobs, or when a job is held up waiting for something. It is amazing what one of these machines can accomplish in a day, especially when it is working solo and does not have to wait for dump trucks, etc. Most contractors are happy to work on a "T&M" (time & materials) basis, if you tell them you have enough money for two days (as an example) machine time, they will do that much work, you can always do more later as money allows.

Another option that may be if one of your local contractors is doing a job near you, and they need a place to dump excess fill, you can make a horse trade, you take their fill, which will reduce the slope, they put a machine in to fix the rest of the slope up.

As for the soil type, you couldn't really ask for better soil for this type of work.

Sorry for the length of this post, but it's not a simple job.

Best of luck. ....

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Bvan
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2003-05-28          55817

Reberta, I happened to notice your posting on your problem and figured why not get your head spinning even more. No, just kidding, landscaping has been my life so let's see if I can help a bit.
Tom and Murf have you started in the right direction and I have to agree with them for safety, and because of your equipment size you are out gunned, don't worry though.
Murf was right you should grass the slope. The area is simply to narrow and steep to be elaborate when simple works. Being that narrow in width you have to enjoy it by looking down on it or up at it.
Not seeing the project makes it a little hard to know what ground prep or proper equipment is needed. It isn't that big of area so even with the slope it will not require a lot of equipment time. Ask around and I am sure you can find the right contractor to do the job ( landscaper or excavator.
Without seeing the area it is hard to tell if the ground you have will grow grass without topsoil. But it sounds like you have planted on it. You might be able to rake and seed the area yourself. It looks like hand work to me. August to October is best for most of the US for planting. I would be glad to help you with the proper seed selection but I would need some more information first and we would also have to discuss what erosion control should be used. ....

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TomG
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2003-05-29          55860

I was thinking about this on my way back from town yesterday. I noticed a loose rock retaining wall and several railroad-tie walls. We used 8" square timber from old rejected guard-rail posts for retaining walls. We're in the deep country here too and I appreciate the problem of contractor availability. Usually there is somebody who does township work in most areas. They do have fill time and that's the way the work gets done for private individuals asked or not. A small contractor can't schedule small jobs for individuals during the time they're contracted to do work for the only major client in an area. Get to know contractors who work in you area and you'll find out when they have slack time. Then you can do prep work and have fill-in work ready to go when a contractor is available. Please appreciate the safety comments made here as well. Our contractor's equipment got him once and he is an artist with it. He ended up in hospital with broken everything not expected to live let alone walk again. He still works and still is an artist and is very lucky. Accidents do happen even to very experienced operators.

Sound like Bvan might be able to speak to the visual aspects of your project. What was on my mind is that erosion may be a problem once the ground is broken and terraces without retaining wall likely would end up as dirt banks. If the idea to make walking around the property easier, walking up a terraced slope probably would be more difficult than the present slope unless stairs were installed.

I personally like the idea of plotting terraces sort like contour lines on a topo map rather than cutting straight lines across a slope. If I were going to do something like that It'd be an excuse for me to buy a decent GPS. I'd measure a set of equal divisions down one side of a slope and then do walks from each point across the slope that maintained constant elevations or sloped them about 4-degree for good drainage to the side. Getting the a plan in mind and plotting the terraces would save a contractor a bunch of time.
....

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reberta Young
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2003-06-19          57980

Hi Tom
It's been a while since my last posting, as if you didn't know that.
Been doing some serious planing that includes the good possibility of not having to use retaining walls. From the terraces there will be a gradual slope up to the next terrace and so on. Actually decided on two levels instead oif the original 4 or 5, I think it will be much easier going, Acquired a new implement (different than the one that came with the tractor). It is a Gearmore hydrolic box scraper - heavy duty type stuff, dicided not to play around. Also aquired a chipper shredded to run off the Bota, that is also commercial heavy duty.
Been "playing" around with my south slope which is an incline from the house, The slope I've been in a quandry about is the north slope which is a decline from the house - both begin about 75' from the house on either side. Kinda fun actually, but boy my legs were sure tired the first day from the tension put on the gas pedal, Oh you probably remember how it was when you first began to do something a little out of the ordinary with your tractor, huh?
Another decision that I made was to keep contractors out of it. If I couldn't do it, it didn't need to be done, right?, right!!! About safty - I've been reading all there is to know about it, but the best teacher doesn't come from books, it comes from first hand experience, slow, slow, slow, and thank you for all the suggestions you and the others have posted, and I do greatly appreciate them.
Oh I agree with you on platting terraces like on a topo map, yes, yes, and, I just happen to have a GPS. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-06-19          57996

First of all, good for you, go for it.

Good choice on buying a heavy duty quality implement too.

Now on to the dry advice section.

The GPS is excellent for certain tasks but working on a slope with equipment is a situation where you want to keep your eyes on the task at hand, not an LCD screen. Use the GPS unit, or just a couple of lengths of rope for that matter, to set out 'Batten Boards' (or stakes) at each end of the runs you will be making, you start at one and aim for the opposite one to keep yourself online with each pass. That way you can concentrate on your driving.

One tip I have for you is to start the whole operation by stripping off any topsoil there is and piling it off to the sides, you will want to put it back on top of the finished product, no use buying what you buried earlier.

The other idea is to strip as much soil as the box will hold then pick it up with the loader, assuming you have one, and get a second box full with the blade, this will speed up the task considerably. Also, if I remember correctly you have pretty stiff soil, if your box has scarifiers, use them first, it will make the scraping go MUCH easier and faster.

Don't be afraid to ask even the smallest question, and most importantly, BE CAREFUL.

Best of luck. ....

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Reberta Young
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2003-06-22          58108

Murf
I certianly will use the stakes as you suggested. Had planned on using the GPS on the walk around route, not while I'm driving.
I'm ahead of you on stripping off the top soil, and, using the loader and box scrapper in combination, except that when picking up the dirt from the box I have to back over it first because there is no room to turn around. Yes I do have very stiff soil in most places but have not used the scrifers - I will. Didnt know that is what they were called, I call them plow forks. I can lower them to a depth of 1', how deep should I go?
Another question. As I mentioned previously there are 2 roads at 2 different levels running parallel to the area I will be terracing. I wand to make a turn around from the top road at the bottom of the slope to the lower level road. There is about an 8' drop between them. I think it will have to almost be a switch back, but even at that I don't know where to begin, top, bottom? And this needs to be done before starting seriously on the terrace. What are your suggestions? ....

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TomG
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2003-06-22          58121

Good to hear that you waded through the safety stuff here and still decided to make it a do it yourself project. Also good to hear that I was taken to mean doing a walk around with the GPS. I'd probably do it while carrying a spray can of marker paint (they spray when upside down). A sack of flour works too.

I hope the 'hydraulic' part of the box is a top-link rather than retractable scarifiers. I think of hydraulic top-links as almost essential for box scraper work. I control how my scraper works almost entirely with the top-link and seldom tough the 3ph except for dumping the box. You can switch from cut to drag to spread on the fly with one. Sounds like you're doing pretty good if you're getting good initial results. For most people it takes a bit of practice with a box before they start getting acceptable results or taking all day doing it.

The scarifiers need to be down only deep enough to loosen to the depth of cuts you are making. On side-grades, it might be useful to have the uphill scarifiers set deeper than the downhill ones but you'd probably pull them all up after a few passes since you wouldn't want them cutting below the intended surface of the finished terraces. Over all, the deeper they are, the more traction is required and gentle probably is better on any sort of side-hill. At any rate you probably don't want them deeper than the topsoil initially.

I can't quite get a sense of the roads. I think they go across the slope but I don't know if they cross the part that's going to be terraced or are above or below it. I guess the turnaround is to go from one road to the other, but I don't know if it's going to be on the terraced area or what the horizontal distance is over the 8' drop.

I would keep in mind that dirt or gravel grades greater than 4% tend to erode and keeping a grade that gentle might make for a pretty long switch-back. A steeper grade could be sloped to the inside to channel runoff to a rock-lined ditch. Stability of the outside part of the road might be a problem particularly if used by heavy vehicles. It might be good to get an expert opinion here. If there's a problem a bed could be cut and filled by rip-rap, covered by gravel and finished with dirt cut from the terraces. The use of fill could help reduce the grade needed. I'm probably getting overly elabourate again but I'm just trying to illustrate potential problems and spending too many words doing it.

....

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Murf
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2003-06-23          58153

Tom has pretty much covered it all, as far as the roads, and levelling in general goes, whenever possible you want to work from the top of the hill down, despite what most people think as they get older, gravity is a GOOD thing.

As for the loading of dirt, try whenever possible to reverse AROUND the pile of dirt mounded up with the box, backup past the dirt on the uphill side (then if you climb a bit of it will tend to tip the machine INTO the hill and not flip it downhill) then scooping it up with the loader will be much easier since it isn't compacted, and it's FAR safer to go around it than climb over it on a side-slope.

Best of luck. ....

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Reberta Young
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2003-06-23          58195

Tom
No, they are retractable, but what are top link scrifers? And - I do not understand what you mean by you do not touch the 3ph (does that mean 3 point hitch?) except for dumping, or the next sentence (on the fly?).?
I never said it didn't take me all day, but actually it didn't.the roads do not go across the slope. They run parallel to it downhill. Perhaps I should explain in more detail - At toe top of the hill everything is level (more or less, this is where the roads begin, one right next to the other. as you go downhill they seperate by way of grade, the lower one being a bit steeper than the top, and it is at the bottom of the slope that they reach a seperation of 8/10', this is because not the lower road is 8/10' below the top road. the horizontal distance of the roads is about 200' The teracces will be perpendicular to the roads.
The only heavy vehicle that will be used on those roads is my tractor. What does rip-rap mean? I have never heard that term. You are going to have to use laymans terms and talk tome like a teacher because you are going way over my head with these terms. Is there a tractor users language book that I could read... Well you are getting too terchnical! Your elaborations will not help if I cannot understand what you are talking about... OK?

Murf
Top of the hill, OK.
So instead of backing over the dirt I try to go betweenit and the bank, well that will help a little, then only two tires will be packing it down instead of four, OK, thanks.

Thanks to you both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....

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TomG
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2003-06-24          58209

There is a terminology issue and kind of a convention is used here. 3ph is three-point hitch and there are others that are used to shorten up comments. Most of my comments are already too long. The terminology is sort of absorbed as you go along and is just part of a learning curve.

Rip-rap is a road building material rather than a tractor term. It is sizable chunks of rock usually from blasting that is foundation material for many roadbeds. I thought the turn-around may transverse a steep slope and more stability on the outside may be needed. Use of rip-rap would provide that as well fill to reduce the grade if needed, but from the road description that doesn't now seem likely. Never the less, roads are generally more durable if the beds are cut below grade and lager aggregates are laid down the finishing material. From the description I think that the roads go more down rather than across the slope so if there's not an erosion problem now then many possible problems aren't relevant unless the turnaround has a steeper grade.

I mentioned a hydraulic top-link rather than scarifiers. A box scraper's action is determined by the blade angle, which is adjusted by the top-link. Shortening the link produces a more aggressive cut. Lengthening it pulls the blade off the surface so it doesn't cut and a full box can be dragged to where it is dumped. Lengthening it even more allows material to come under the blade, which spreads material as the tractor is driven forward.

Good work with a box scraper requires very frequent top-link adjustment. Without a hydraulic top-link a person has to stop and get off the tractor to make them. With a hydraulic link, you can drive along a high spot and cut, when the box is full the link can be changed to drag the material to a low spot and then changed again to spread it--all without stopping. One will turn a day's fussing into a couple hours of relative happiness.
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Reberta
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2003-06-28          58460

What do you mean most of your comments are too long? for who, not for me, just think of who you are talking to - one who has no or not much knowledge of the terminology in tractorland.
My question was - I do not understand what you mean by you do not "TOUCH" the 3ph, the word emphazied now is touch - what do you mean by that. Also - You can switch from cut to drag to spread "ON THE FLY" with one. what do you mean by on the fly?
There are plenty of natural rip rap on these roads. Just came across another one that needs to be moved down to the bottom of the turnaround because I need to make the area that they are in lower, however they wont budge.
There, as I have mentioned previously, has never been an erosion problem, but the road hasn't been worked in at least 20 years, soooo, I don't know what will happen this winter during the rains. I have cut a shallow groove on the bank side of the road as you suggested. I suppose if I wet it well now after finishing the roads and pack it down good with the tractor it will be alright. Would you advise the purchase of a roller to pack the ground with?
I do not have to stop and get off the tractor to change the blade length, I must have misunderstood your question.
After making a rip in the ground (another project) there is still dirt in the trench, what can I do to empty it without doing hand work; I am laying pvc pipe for irrigsation. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-28          58471

Sounds like you're coming along pretty well with all this stuff.

The way a box scraper works largely is determined by the angle of the cutter to the ground. A hydraulic top-link changes that angle. Shortening the link rolls the back of the box up and makes a sharper blade angle that produces a more aggressive cut, lengthening it reduces the cut and can reduce it to the point where it doesn't cut at all. Material just stays in the box and can be dragged around. Lengthening it further allows material to go under the cutter, which spreads the material. Top-link adjustments are reversed when using the rear cutter.

What I meant by 'on the fly' is that the top-link adjustment can be changed without stopping the tractor. There may be very fancy scrapers that have built-in hydraulics to change the blade angle. Most people have simple ones that require a separate hydraulic top-link.

What I meant by 'touch the 3ph' is change it. About the only times I change the 3ph is 'up' for transporting the box or dumping a full box and 'down' to start cutting. Occasionally I have pull up the box if I seriously run out of traction but that's when I make a mistake. It does mess up the nice grade I'm trying to work. Most times when I run out of traction I can reduce the load enough by lengthening the top-link. You may have figured out this top-link adjustment stuff already, but if you haven't it will make scraper work a relative breeze.

Getting the run-off to go in a ditch rather than along a road is half the battle. Then the ditch rather than road erodes. If a ditch does erode, it can be filled with large aggregate that will most times halt the erosion. For compacting, I get best results by holding down pressure on a fairly flat loader bucket and driving backwards. The technique usually requires brake steering and should be done on significant side grade only with extreme caution. I get fairly decent compacting with my box scraper by lengthening the top-link to max so the box rides on it's fixed rear cutter. In practice, I get compacting done by doing some of each. I don't know if your scraper has a fixed or swinging rear cutter but either will do the same work. Hope all these works help. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-28          58486

I forgot the about trenching question. I don't know the diameter of pipe or depth needed. I've heard of people using sub-soilers or middle-busters (lister plows) for similar work. They are a little like big scarifiers and I think they can be rigged for one cutter.

I think various width cutters are available for them and they do throw the soil in both directions, which makes sort of a furrow. Sizable rocks in the soil may give them trouble and they may not open a wide enough trench deep enough for the pipe. People also use one bottom moldboard plows. Since I don't have any of these I'd have to use my backhoe or rent a trencher. Rocks also give hoes and trenchers problems.
....

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Reberta
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5 Riverside California
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2003-07-01          58630

Tom
I am getting better at seeing what you are talking about in my head, but is still difficult to get the complete picture. Wish there were someone to show me or that I could watch doing thier work; that is the best way that I learn. All my life I have never been around any tractor or anyone that drove a tractor, so getting a real hang of it is rather difficult. There are so many things to think about when you are driving. But I suppose after awhile it will become second nature to me.
What am I going to do about the hudge rock in the middle of the road that I cant seem to move? Guess I could just leave it there and straddle it when driving on that road. Only thing is - it is right in the middle where the turnaround hase to be soooo... I just dont know. I could always work around it then after I'm done see how much of a problem it creates, yes? Course working around it is going to have to be done very causiously. ....

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Reberta
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5 Riverside California
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2003-07-01          58633

The diameter of the pipe is 3/4" which needs to be laid at least 18" deep. I'll look into renting or go to the supplier or... have one made that can be attached to the bottom of the ripper.
Do you have experience with the commericial chipper shredders? I've used my newly purchased PTO driven Bear Cat for only two days now. The chipper works like a dream, chewing up 5"x5' branches in a matter of seconds. But almost every time small branches (less than 1" in diameter) and leaves are added to the shredder it clogs up. I Spoke to the manufacturer on the phone yesterday, he said in a matter of words that you had to be carefus what you put in the shredder, even small limbs should be put in the chipper. Well, a chipper only I could have bought from where I purchased the tractor but they only carried chippers. I wanted to upgrade from the small chipper/shredder that I already have. I'm discusted and about ready to send the darn thing back. The shredded on the small machine does better than the new one and also has gotton clogged only twice in the 8 years I have had it. Humph! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-07-01          58641

Reberta, despite what most women think, gravity is a GOOD thing, LOL.

Carefully dig a hole on the downhill side of the rock, dig the downhill side of the hole all the way out until it meets the existing grade, then roll it out and down the hill. If this is not practical, then dig a hole larger and deeper than the rock and RIGHT next to it then tumble it over in to the deeper hole and bury it.

If neither of these ideas seem workable your only other solution is to raise the road bed over that area if possible, or extend the road out further past it and make the turnaround beside it instead of over it.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-07-02          58707

The web link below goes to an old discussion about using plows for shallow trenching. I don't know if any of the ideas would work very well for 18" minimum trenching or if there were many buried rocks. I also don't know how much HP and traction it takes to pull a sub-soiler 18" deep.

Full of 'I don't know's today' so I'll keep going. There was another old discussion where somebody rigged something to maybe a sub-soiler so it pulled line through and laid it on the bottom of the trench as the tractor drove forward. Trouble is that I can't recall if it was irrigation or electrical line and I don't have a clue what the subject title was.

Murf gave the basic solutions if the rock is a large but loose one. A bunch of rock faces in the roads around here are part of bedrock and there's no solution short of blasting or re-routing. Some rock does break pretty easy with sledges but that's not work I'm inclined to do.

I was able to move a slab of concrete by getting the loader bucket under a corner and levering it up the with bucket curl enough to pitch shovels of sand under it and a ramp in front of it. Eventually I raised it enough that I could get a chain around it and drag it out. The slab was way too heavy for my loader to lift, but the bucket would lever it up. Murf described similar ways a rock can be rolled rather than dragged. Have to take a lot of care doing this type work. There's always danger of the rock slipping off the bucket or shifting. I sure wouldn't want any part of me under of near the rock and I wouldn't want to be in a hole along with the rock.

If it's a big problem, building the road over the rock may be easier. Road building is a bit of an art and a permanent solution may require a level bed cut below grade either side of the rock and application of rip-rap and large gravel I mentioned.
....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-07-02          58728

If you're running the chipper below PTO RPM the shredder may be more prone to clogging. It'd be nice to come up with a simple solution. If it's leafs that are clogging it, I'd be pretty unhappy with the performance as well. I'm not sure if some shredders are more tolerant to wet material than others but I haven't heard complaints about clogging and there have been a fair number of discussions about them here. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-07-03          58759

There is a very great difference in both the design and principle of by which they operate between a shredder & a chipper.

A chipper is a series of rotating knives fastened to either a drum-like arrangement, or a plate that spins. The knives are fixed to the rotating memeber adjoing a hole in said member, they are adjusted so that the knife can only take a set sized peice off the wood being fed through, kind of like a woodworkers plane. This controls the speed at which the machine can process wood down to a point which it can handle.

A shredder on the other hand is best described as a flail mower in a box, there is a rotating axle on which a series of moveable blades are attached. As the axle spins centrifugal force makes them stand out at their full length, material is then fed into this area and the knives repeatedly strike the material until it is small enough to pass a restricor device at the output opening. This design however allows for a much larger quantity of material to be put in at once, if it is material which is hard for the flail knives to process, like small twigs which are inserted parallel to the direction of rotation and therefore not hit very often, it is very easy indeed to overwhelm the machine. On the other hand, bulky material like leaves can be processed far faster with this type of design.

We find that the best way to clear material like this is to (if possible) time the work in such a way as to be cutting and chipping this material early in the spring, before it bears leaves, then it can all just put through the chipper since it is bare twigs only.

Best of luck. ....

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Reberta
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5 Riverside California
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2004-01-03          72999

Hey!
To all you guys who helped me so much with advice and info on terracing my property. I have finished one terrace in the south grove; one of the road turn-around cutouts fillups and other asundry projects. plus digging and pulling out 8 dead or deased trees. Just wanted to give you all an update since you havent heard from me in quite a while. Plus - in a totally unrealated subject ... sold my first painting.
Thanks again
Reberta
oh I also solved the chipper problem by using a smaller grate, worked wonders. no more clogging. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-04          73018

Thanks! Good to hear, and the painting too. I've sold what I've created myself, although mostly music. Nothing quite like it--a real good feeling. ....

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