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IH 560 engine trouble Need help

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iamhistory
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14 PA
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2007-07-09          143558

Hey All.........

I have an IH 560 (approx. a 1959 or 1960) that has lost a severe amount of power in the engine.

I bought the tractor 4 years ago and it has a Wagner backhoe and a Wagner loader on it (VERY HEAVY MACHINE!!). Initially it ran a little rough but would start and get from point A to point B without trouble, dig w/ the hoe and push large stumps and brush piles without any problem with the loader. I started losing engine power while pushing a brush pile in our field and had a few backfires causing the oil in the air cleaner to come up out and onto the hood of the tractor. Any strain on the motor whatsoever just made the rpm's die right down to a stall if I didn't engage the clutch and stop.

Since then it starts rough and has NO power. I can barely get it to carry its own weight in 1st gear just to move it from one place to another.

A guy told me the air flow wasn't right and that the old carb probably needed to be cleaned out and put back together with some new gaskets, etc. Also, it probably isn't helping that the exhaust pipe is quite rusty and has a few holes in it right on the manifold. I am trying to replace it but can't find any parts very easily around here without buying everything new.

The same fella that told me to clean the carb and check the air also told me to dump some automatic transmission fluid into the cylinders (because they freeze up sometimes after the tractor sits and I have to loosen up the flywheel by hand to get it to start) and let it run for about an hour. He said that'll free up everything the fluid touches and bring out impurities/clean things up so that starting it in the future will not be so difficult and give me some compression/power back. He said if I got the carb straightened out that would take care of my power problem and then with a bit of care/replacement parts in a few other areas and the transmission fluid idea......the motor should be running much better.

Any input on this? I have dumped some oil into the cylinders as I work the flywheel and once I get it loosened up I try and let the pistons pump most of the oil back out and then it just smokes a bit once I put everything back together and start it up. The tractor will idle ok but when put into gear it just wants to die right away.

I would like to put some work into this machine and get it fixed up a bit but if it is going to be too expensive I will just put it up for sale.

Thanks guys.
iamhistory


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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-07-10          143560

Iamhistory,

It sounds to me as though you could have a possible intake valve problem, as well as worn rings on the pistons.

Oil coming up through the air cleaner is a sign of worn piston rings, allowing the oil to come up on top of the piston. if the intake valve isn't seating properly, this oil will then come out through the carb, on the compression stroke.

I would do a compression check on each cylinder. Pull a spark plug and screw in a compression gauge. Turn the engine over with a wrench. (disconnect the battery terminals!) When you reach top dead center (TDC) on the compression stroke, you should have high pressure, and it should hold for a few seconds. If you have a very low pressure reading, and it drops right away, it's a sure sign of a valve or ring problem.

You could also hook up an air hose from your air compressor. You'll have to figure out a way to attach it to your compression gauge fitting. Allow air to flow into into each spark plug opening directly from your air compressor. The engine may turn over slightly, so keep your fingers and hands clear of any moving parts.

If you have a ring problem, you should hear air escaping from the engine's crank case vent. If it's a valve problem, you will likely hear the air escaping through the carb, or the exhaust.

Your friend is correct. You can pour a little transmission fluid in each cylinder to keep the rings free. Diesel fuel works just as well. Just be sure to change your engine oil prior to the next use.

If you need parts, please give Pete's Tractor Salvage a chance to help you. Pete's Tractor salvage is world famous for his inventory. He's located just 75 miles from me, but he has customers in nearly every nation.

Pete's Tractor Salvage, Anamoose, North Dakota. See web link posted below.

I hope this helps.

Joel ....


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IH 560 engine trouble Need help

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-07-10          143561

Iamhistory,

One more thing to keep in mind...........

If you do run transmission fluid into the cylinders, it will certainly clean up your engine for you.....and it will do a danged good job of it.

However, all of the sludge that has built up in your engine over the years will instantly clog your engine's oil filter. If you run your engine for even five minutes afterward, you could possibly starve your engine of needed oil, which will quickly destroy it.

Be sure to check your engine's oil filter after adding any engine cleaner, or transmission fluid. A visual inspection is sufficient. If you see gobs of mud and sludge in the filter, you will have to replace the oil filter, and probably several new filters in succession.

Cheapy oil filters (or even used filters) are fine for this work. When your filters finally appear clean, change the engine oil again and replace the cheapy with a quality filter.



Joel ....

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Art White
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2007-07-10          143564

The 560 would be like a tank set up with the loader and backhoe. I find it a bit unusual that you have to work at freeing up the engine. I would wonder that you might have had a stuck valve or as most engines when the electric system hasn't been maintained well might backfire thru the carb. I would do a compression test as the tools are cheap and it would help to sort out your problems with it. There are several tractor bone yards in PA with wengers being one of the largest put we still don't know if you need one! ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-07-10          143571

Iamhistory,

I'm not sure how the camshaft is driven on the IH 560, but you could simply have a problem with the valve timing.

A worn cam sprocket(s), or stretched chain, would explain the severe loss of power.

But oil coming up through the carb is a bit more concerning to me. Hopefully this is due to nothing more than worn piston rings. A compression check will identify the faulty cylinder, or cylinders.

I truly hope you don't have a hole burned in a piston, or a valve that has punched through a piston -- but even these problems can be fixed.

Joel ....

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iamhistory
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-07-10          143578

Thanks for the input fellas. I will do the compression test. If the test is ok then what? If the test is not ok....do I then have to take the motor apart and put new rings in all the cylinders?

I would have thought that if the rings were getting worn there would have been a noticeable progression into the "no power" category and not just happen one day. I can recall the noticeable loss of power back to one specific day and things haven't been running right since then.

Thanks again. ....

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iamhistory
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2007-07-10          143579

Something else to add to this is that the guy that was making the suggestions about the power loss, etc. to me also said that it could be that an adjustment on the distributor is needed as things could be out of time a little (as was mentioned in a post).

How do I know if the timing needs adjusted and then if I've made the proper adjustments? ....

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iamhistory
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2007-07-10          143580

I was going to ask in a different thread but since you guys are far more experienced than I am when it comes to tractors, I have a question about the model of my 560.

I can't tell for sure the year or actual model of it. I know that there were some made that were painted yellow for road crews (I think) and mine is yellow. It has the yellow and white paint scheme but it looks like it is not factory paint and someone may have painted over some red here and there. I can't really tell 100%.

I also had a dealer come out and give me a quote on a trade (I've bought a Kubota this year) and he said it was different and didn't know the model either. I believe he called the rear tires/fenders "low profile".

It does not have a 3 point hitch or pto. It has the 4 wheel design for the front wheels and not the tricycle style. I've looked for some serial numbers and such but being a '59 or '60 I can't really see anything well enough to tell. The guy I bought it from had it from his dad and he didn't know much about it except that they had it a long time. He even told me it had glow plugs and it's a gas motor. I thought that sounded a little strange.

So how can I find out for sure exactly what I have so I can start educating myself more about it?

Thanks again guys. Much appreciated. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-07-10          143582

Iamhistory,

A compression check won't tell you much. It WILL ONLY help you identify the problem cylinder, or cylinders.

If you are losing air through all four cylinders, I would say you have a valve issue. If you are losing air through only one cylinder, you may have a ring or piston issue.

You'll be able to narrow down your problem, once you figure out where the air is escaping from.

If the pressurized air is escaping from the crank case, you know it's a piston or ring issue.

If the air escapes from the carb, you know it's an intake issue.

If the air is escaping through the exhaust, it will then be an exhaust valve issue.

Even if you determine that you are losing air on your compression check, it does not mean that you have any serious problems. It could simply mean that your valves are not closing when they are supposed to. Your problems are more severe if you are losing air through the crankcase.

A simple timing check on your engine is not difficult to do. You will need to loosen the screw or bolt that holds your distributor in place (you may have to remove the distributor cap to do this.) and then you'll be able to rotate your distributor while the engine is running. (You have to replace the cap to do this)

Once you find the place where the engine is running pretty well, you can then tighten the screw or bolt just slightly.....enough to hold it place, but not tight.

Shut the tractor off.

Now, with the first cylinder at top dead center on the compression cycle, (you may have to remove the valve cover in order to see that both valves are closed) You can check your timing. You'll probably be OK with about 4 degrees of advance. There may be a timing mark on the front of the engine somewhere.

If so, this will make things much easier for you, as you can simply use a timing light to check this while the engine is running.

Do a simple compression check, and then me know where your air is escaping from. Once I know this information, I will be able to help you pinpoint the problem, and then go on with further diagnostics.

Good luck with the project. I'm hoping to hear good news.

Joel

....

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Art White
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2007-07-10          143583


The 560 engine just like many others in the farm industry is a gear drive cam.
If the compression is low on a cylinder then you need to put some oil in the cylinder and ceck again to see if it gains, if it does then you have a problem with the rings.

I'd check the points as if they have worn the piece that opens them to much then it would advance the spark. If that wasn't worn to much and thru another electrical problem where the spark exchanges that would retard the timing. ....

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candoarms
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2007-07-10          143586

Iamhistory,

A few more notes for you.........

While you're checking your timing, also check your spark plug gaps and your ignition points.

This is a very common problem with older gasoline engines.

Under load, your spark plug operates much differently than it does at idle. This is due to the gasoline in the cylinder, which acts much like an insulator. The gasoline makes it more difficult for the arc to jump.

If your engine runs fine at idle, but nearly dies under load, the solution could be as simple as closing the gap on the spark plug just a little bit.

I wish I had a book to tell you exactly how to set the spark plug gap, points, and timing marks. Maybe somebody here can help you with this information. If not, your local IH dealer's service center might be able to help you.

Joel ....

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harvey
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Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2007-07-11          143617

As well as I remember the 560 and I have a few hours on one, a gasser. It has a wet air cleaner. It is a 6 cyl. It is basically bullet proof.

If I lost power and my air cleaner pushed its oil out I would look at a plugged exaust. Maybe a bird built a nest in it?

Points, plugs electronic parts are always a good thing.
....

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iamhistory
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Posts: 14 PA
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2007-07-12          143638

Thanks for all the input guys. Some of these things I thought of and some I had no idea. I'll start with the easiest possibilities and work my way down the list.

I would like to get things running well so I can use my backhoe a few times before winter. Then, the 560 is going in the garage and getting torn apart, cleaned up, repaired where needed, and some paint.

It might be old but it doesn't have to look and run that way. I am taking the hoe and loader off before putting the 560 in for work as it is a huge machine with those things attached and takes up way too much room. Is there a special way to store a hoe and loader outside besides keep the cylinders greased a bit and tarp things down? ....

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candoarms
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2007-07-12          143648

Iamhistory,

You have no special precautions to take when storing your equipment outdoors for an extended period of time.

Grease up your pins, hydraulic cylinders, and all pivot points. If your spool valves don't have rubber boots around them, you might want to do something to protect them from the elements, but that's about all that's necessary.

You shouldn't have any hydraulic pressure on any of your cylinders. If for some reason you suspect that you do, see to it that all pressure is released. The easiest way to do this is to shut your tractor off, and then operate all of the controls in both directions before disconnecting the lines from the tractor.

You don't need to throw a tarp over any of it. Leave any loose hydraulic lines hanging high, with the fittings pointing downward. If you have plugs to place in your Quick-Disconnect fittings, please do. If not, it is best not to place anything over them. A bag, or tape, for example, will collect and hold water.

Good luck with the project. Let us know how things turn out.

Joel ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-07-13          143653

Iamhistory; You have gotten lots of good advice here, but I will wave one caution flag. You likely saw the movie, "The Money Pit", just remember you are dealing with a tractor built in the late 50's. I grew up with Farmalls, my dad bought a new 560, so I've had lots of seat time on one and also dealt with replacing Tourque Amplifiers, hydraulic pumps, rear axle housings etc. that can be shot, you can dump a ton of money in the inside of an old 560 and still have an old 560 that needs paint. The engine is the simplest and cheapest part to fix, from the flywheel on back things will get pricey in a hurry, been there, done all this in the past. If you are handy and enjoy the work they are a fairly simple tractor to work on, you can make up some splitting stands at home in case, (in fact I'll almost guarantee you will be pulling it apart before you are done). so before you end up with a 2500. dollar 560 that you have spent twice that much or more to bring back to life, maybe look around for something a bit newer. How is the backhoe attached to the 560? They did'nt have a three point hitch, only the IH two point fast hitch was offered. they can be comvertd to a three point with a top linkl kit, liely that's how your hoe was mounted, so it will likely fit any tractor with a standard three point hitch. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I've restored a bunch of old Farmalls, from Cubs to a 656 and just too many memories of being half done and then discovering I hadn't even begun spending money to bring an old tractor back to life. Frank. ....

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Art White
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2007-07-13          143654


Frank you are so true with what you say! I don't believe I see a lot of problems with this tractor but! Why is it so hard to start in between use? What type of storage is used as normally they could sit for a long time with no problems. What is the actual condition and is it really worth any more investment.

I've seen a lot of people, me included take on projects of restoration and find out that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to the pocket book. I find that some do it for the fact of having something unusual or unique. I know I sold a fellow a 4010 that was about the forth or fifth off the assembly line. He is a collector and he gave me good dollar for the tractor, about what it would cost if perfect any other serial number. He did rebuild it totally even though it just needed engine work and he made it look factory fresh with tires, paint and decals. No bargin at $77,000. invested thats for sure but he has one!

Thats about the most extreme that I've heard of but I didn't ask him about his other tractors, there are plenty of others that have still put double and triple the money into a tractor of it's worth being sentimenal or just carried away.

The other side is how much to get the job done and what it is worth to you.

Life is such a value!!! ....

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hardwood
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2007-07-13          143660

Art; I'm probably one of the worst addicts when it comes to reatoration, not to the tune of the 4010, but when I did one It had to be complete right down to the hollow head capscrews the hoods and side panels were fastened on a 656 or 706 with. I still have a pretty good supply of those along with the captured square nuts that went under the hood for them to screw into. Abut 10-15 years ago I cleaned out every old time IH dealership in eastern Iowa that would sell me their obsolete or no longer available original equipment fasteners for battery box lid plastic nuts, etc.,anything in the cosmetic line from that era. As we speak I have a "47 Cub" that is 100% new inside from comlete engine rebuild all the way back, clutch, all tranny bearings, brakes, steering tie rods, radiator, ETC., ETC. a lot of which is still current parts inventory. She still needs paint and tires, so another "Money Pit", but I promised it to the second oldest Grandson a couple years ago. So what do you do? Finish it and have a 5000. dollar Cub for the Grandson. In 05 we had a farm retirement auction and sold a lot of Farmalls from steel wheel "M's" and "H's" with factory wide fronts, A's, B's, C's. straight H's and M's Supers and four hours worth os auction time on parts, etc. I did'nt sell any of the NOS parts and some of the harder to find stuff, I still have all that. I did keep my Dad's H and another H that are complete far as restoration, so it is a disease you never get over. Nuff from me. Frank. ....

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Art White
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2007-07-13          143661



Frank, I'm in the ag business but my love was for cars. I remember a ad in a car magzine in 1975 that showed a 1973 chevy impala two door hardtop. Retail price was marked at about $3500.00 round numbers, 1975 through the parts department $25,000.00. You just have to love our addictions! The good part of working on something that is factory original still doesn't have the expense of trying to work on one of pieces. I've been trying to figure out how far I'm going with a Ferrari kit car that looks like the Miami Vice car from Don Johnson. I didn't want a normal one and I found one that was built with a tube chassis with a small block chevy that was a driver. What a project needless to say, somethings are about where I want them, some I still wonder if I drop the clutch at 3500 how many pieces I'll have!!!! ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-07-13          143681

Art; Being you mention your love for cars I couldn't resist passing on something that happened today. My wife and I had an appointment with our lawyer this morning, she (the lawyer always parks her Town Car under a maple tree along the street in front of her office. We pulled up behind her new Town Car to get a bit of shade too, and the wife remarked on the nice car. It is a nice car, but parked directly across the street was a Shelby Mustang, a really, really nice one, too nice to sit on the street. My comment to the Mrs. was I wouldn't trade three new Town Cars for that Shelby. Again, Nuff from me. Frank. ....

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Art White
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2007-07-14          143688


There is just something about that last statement Frank! ....

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iamhistory
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2007-07-16          143742

Hardwood......the hoe is not attached by a 3pt. hitch. It's on the 2pt. fast hitch with two arms(similar to a three pt.) near the fenders also hooked to the hoe. I'll probably only be able to use it on the IH since my other tractors are newer 3pt. hitches.

I thought about the money pit thing. My brothers and I originally went together and bought the 560 b/c of the hoe so we could each get some use out of it on our property. I'm really the only one who ever uses it anymore. We paid $3500 for the equipment and then had a guy do some work on it for $1400. (a guy my brother knows who I think didn't do s*** for that much money and doesn't want to talk about it of course) So, with an original purchase price of $5500 for a 560 (or about) we will definitely have more than the original money invested.

Having said that......I've probably gotten my money out of the hoe work instead of paying a guy or renting one since we bought the equipment 3 ways. But, I was going to give my brothers their share of dollars for the tractor and just keep it/restore it myself since they don't really want anything to do with it anymore. I can't justify them putting any more dollars into it and I don't want to consider it "mine" alone if they have a stake in it still.

It definitely needs some work to be more reliable and a regular user. The guages don't work, the T/A needs to be replaced, several lines need replaced, a few leaks here and there, etc. A typical 50 year old tractor that's seen its share of use and probably several owners. But when we bought it, it wasn't needed for anything but the backhoe and that worked sufficiently enough to do the work we needed.

I still can't determine if the original paint is red or yellow though. I see some spots of red in places and then as soon as I think the problem has been solved I find some areas that appear to have been yellow from the start. I'm just not sure about the details and haven't spoken to anyone yet who is sure either. Could I take some pictures of it and send them to some of you guys to see if anyone can help out with the info.?

Thanks a lot for the input fellas. It's been really useful. Keep it coming if you have anything more. Please!



I really don't want to have thousands more dollars invested in this machine, but I do like it and could really use a large tractor on the property. If it were running properly, the hoe and loader would be put to far more use than they are now. ....

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hardwood
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2007-07-16          143750

Iam; I think you have answered some of you own questions.
5500. in an old 560 that still needs a TA, paint, leaking lines, repaired all after you get the engine fixed is going to get out of hand dollar wise to the point you could buy a later model tractor that is running. I think I would take what ever it will bring and divvy up with the brothers.
Replacing the TA will cost you 7-900 depending on whether you want them heavy duty or standard version. If you haven't replaced one read the book completely before you start, the planetary gears all have timing marks on them that must be in time, etc. You can get a TA bypass kit that takes you back to the basic five speeds, but the bypass kit is I think around 500. all of this if you supply the labor.
I am not a big fan of three point mount backhoes, most anyone who has one or has had one will agree that they can tear up the three point hitch of a tractor pretty quick if you get a bit aggressive with the hoe. If you are handy with a welder or even if you hire a blacksmith to do the work I'll pass on what a neighbor of mine did. He bought a used Kelly three point hoe, put it on his 656 Farmall, used it once and took it off for good. He used some eight inch channel that he welded to the hoe frame, they extend forward under rhe rear axles of the tractor where he made a coupler of some kind that fastens the ends of the channel to the side rails of the tractor just behind the radiator. He backs the tractor over the frame, connects the front ends of the channels, then connects the three point arms to the channels with some chains, lifts it up to match some brackets on the rear axle housings that have a pin hole to match a clevis on the channel. He puts the pins in releases the three point chains, the hoe is firmly attached to the tractor. Frank.

....

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