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Diesel fuel additive or not

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ScooterMagee
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2003-08-11          61569

A general diesel fuel question: I’ve been reading some of the posts of late, and have noticed several comments on fuel octane and fuel additives. Since my knowledge of diesel engines is minimal at best, I was curious: “Is the fuel from the pump not good enough?” And, what performance and power gains can be achieved with various additives? Ultimately I’m trying to decide if I should be adding something to my diesel fuel to make it “better.”

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-11          61574

people claim all sorts of gains, performance, mileage, pump life, injector life, filter life,fuel system cleansing etc. I won't debate if it's true or not. I would say in my opinion it is optional in the warm climates but needed in the colder ones. Where I live you need it in the winter because MOST additives also have anti-gel properties.

Unfortunantely I can attest first hand to the results of failing to use anti-gel additves at 0* ;( ....

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Chief
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2003-08-11          61578

I use the fuel additive as more of a cheap insurance than anything else to make sure the fuel system gets good lubrication. I cannot stake any scientific claims. My feeling that if the fuel additive does even a small amount of what it claims, it is worth the cost as it is just a few pennies a gallon. The injection pump in my Cummins cost about $1800. I would imagine the injection pumps in our tractors are not very inexpensive either. Like Scott said, in cold weather additive is a requirement to prevent gelled fuel & parafin waxes stopping up filters. Some fuel additives claim to raise cetane levels which aids the combustion process and usually quiets the engine's combustion noise. Ideally, a fuel additive should provide the following:

cetane improver (reduces ignition delay upon compresson)

detergent package (aids cleaning of fuel system)

stabilizes fuel (allows longer storage)

raise lubricity (aids with pump & injector lubrication)

rust & corrosion protection

winterize fuel (prevent gelling of fuel)

de-ice fuel (protect against freezing of any water in fuel)

And let me tell ya. There are a BUNCH of fuel additives out there. You will have to decide which is best for you. I have been using a mix of John Deere Summer Formula, Howes, and Power Service. If you keep an eye out at Walmart, sometimes you can catch the Power Service additive on sale by the case in the big bottles. 96 oz. I believe. I found some for about $11 a bottle. The John Deere additive cost about $26 a gallon. The Howes Diesel Treat I have only been able to find at the Flying J stations.

....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-11          61582

"The Howes Diesel Treat I have only been able to find at the Flying J stations."

I like the Howes. I switched over to it from PS out of convenience more than anything. I get it at a Shell station in NJ when I fill up.

I will say when I ran out and then gelled up it got me up and running, I bought some more, added it, stumbled home and after letting it work for a few hours all was right again.








....


Link:   Howes

 
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ScooterMagee
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2003-08-12          61623

Thanks for the good info. I think for now I'll give the Power Service a try (Walmart was on my way home). And, since one bottle does 100 gallons, this should last me 'til next spring. Even if it helps in the smallest way, it's well worth the minimal cost. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61629

If a bottle will last you that long and its in my understanding pretty expensive stuff, you will probably not benefit from it. This does not of course include peace of mind. Those who will benefit are high hour users on much larger equipment where pumps, injectors etc can be very costly especially as for many of the folks that regularly use theese products are utilizeing their equipment for work related purposes. ie, contractors, farmers etc. The same is very true for synthetic oil. You will unlikely benefit at all or very marginally for significantly more cost over conventional oils IF , and I emphasize IF, you change the oil religously as per your maintenance schedule. This same view is clearly posted on the Mobil 1 web site and they sell the stuff. I do think you would reduce some of the knock in your machine witha higher cetane rateing but if you let it warm up a little you can accomplish the same thing. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-12          61646

I am a believer. That stuff is going in EVERY gallon of fuel I put in my tractor. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61649

How many hours per year are you putting on your machine and what do you feel the net benefit in $ is at the end ? Do you feel you benefited at all from the extra expense on the machines that you traded in or sold ? ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-12          61653

Right now it is helping me retain some hearing that I can carry into old age. Hard to put a price on that.

REF: steel hood thread. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-12          61654

Mark,

Out of curiosity; which additive did you use? I have been following the biodiesel discussions over on the TDI board and those guys are using B-100 (100% biodiesel) and say they are noticing an improvement in combustion noise and reduction of strong smelling fumes. That is why I asked you about that yesterday. My 4410 puts out a pretty strong exhaust odor until I have had it up to operating rpm for a few minutes. Then it cleans right up when fully warmed up. I know exactly what you mean about parking it in the garage. It is pretty strong sometimes and sets the smoke detector off. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-12          61656

If anyone is interested, here is the John Deere "poop" on diesel fuel conditioner. I know they are in the business of selling it and I am not endorsing it, just posting the info. for those who have not seen it. Cummins by the way does not recemmend a diesel fuel additive but they sell Fleetguard fuel additive. Go figure. I could not find any info. on Kubota or New Holland as far as fuel additive recommendations. It would be interesting to see what all of the tractor manufacturers have to say about it? ....


Link:   Diesel Fuel Conditioner Info.

 
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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61661

Mark, I agree completely there are some issues like noise and peace of mind that we can not put a value on. I have never used the stuff and after looking today I see it is far less costly that I was led to believe. I think the short answer to the origional question is that there would be some gain. whether or not that gain is financially productive or not will depend on the age of the owner, how long they intend to use the unit and the added cost. If we can agree just on general principal that on a machine like the origional poster has we might be at an average of 4k hours before overhaul. With the average 2210 user not likely hitting more than 100 hours a year it would take a LOT of years to net a financial gain. Haveing said that it would be helpfull if those useing theese products listed them by brand and cost and what amounts they are mixing so us newbies and non users can get a better idea and make a more informed descision. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61690

Magee, apparently no one is going to cough up any numbers so let me share my flawed mathematical thoughts. I will make a number of assumptions in this analagy and you will be able to compensate to your situation. I do not use the stuff so I am not endorseing or condemming but rather just thinking out loud. I assume the average consumer on this board is between the ages of 35 and 50, I will asume a median age of 42. Most of use do not want, I assume, to work past 62. That leaves 20 years of use. You must keep the same machine for this analagy. If you put 200 hours per year for 20 years you would likely be right at the theoretical rebuild point at 62. If you consume $20 DFA per 200 gallons for the 200 hours per year that will equal $400 of DFA over the 20 years not counting sales tax or inflation. If you think you would be done with your machine at that point it would likely be a waste of $400, on the other hand if what others have shared about longevity holds true you MIGHT get more hours out of your machine and then you would have to weigh the $400 Vs the cost of anticipated repairs on the 2210. I know I will trade mine in within the next two years. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-12          61697

Been out doing some cuttin'. The John Deere Summer Formula calls for 1/5 oz. per gal. A 1 gal. can ($27) treats 840 gal.; at least that is what the can says. If you multiply 128 oz. x 5 that comes to treating 640 gallons. Or about 4.22 cents per gallon. The Howes Diesel Treat says 1 oz. per 4 gal. winter & 1 oz. per 12 gallon summer. The bottle I have cost $10 and if you average 1 oz. per 8 gal. during the course of the year/seasons that bottle treats about 512 gallons so that comes to 1.95 cents per gal. The Power Service in the silver bottle say that to raise cetane 3 pts. use 32 oz. per 100 gal. To raise cetane 6 points use 32 oz. per 50 gallons. At about $3.85 per quart that comes to 3.85 cents per gallon for 3 cetane pts. & 7.7 cents per gallon for 6 cetane pts. Now my head hurts! I have used all 3 and have noticed a reduction of combution noise (not dramatic but noticable) with each. After 20 years flying helicopter and working on the flight line as well as about 15,000 of shotgun shell shooting skeet and sporting clays. I will not register my hearing as an acurate db meter. ;-) There is another brand that I have not tried yet but plan to. Several of the guys on TDR use it and are very happy with it. Below is the link. The Amalgamated DFA is $40 for 5 gal. but shipping is $55. Gary Pipenger is the guy I corresponded with. The company is in Ft. Wayne IN. If it was a little closer, I would just drive up and get some. Here is another link on TDR of a thread about this additive.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52753&highlight=gary+pipenger

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57794&highlight=gary+pipenger

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41712&highlight=gary+pipenger

Maybe some of the other members have tried some other additive and will post their thoughts and findings as well.

I figure I may burn 200 gallons per year at most (probably less) in my 4410. So I feel the cost is negligible. I also use the same additive in my Cummins. Cheap insurance. ....


Link:   Link to Amalgamated DFA

 
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Chief
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2003-08-12          61704

Here is Shell's info. on their DFA ....


Link:   Link to Shell DFA Info.

 
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Chief
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2003-08-12          61705

Here is Stanadynes info. on their DFA. They used to make DFA for John Deere. ....


Link:   Stanadyne DFA Info.

 
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F350Lawman
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2003-08-12          61707

I will give one caution all these additives are quality PS, Howes' Stanadyne, Rotella so take your pick. DO NOT use the STP diesel additive they have at Walmart. That is how I got into trouble. When I gelled up I actually didn't FORGET additive although I might as well. It was late and I didn't want to make another stop, Walmart was sold out of my usual PS so I figured "what the heck, how bad could this STP stuff be, it's only one day?"...

The next morning on my way to the finals of a racquetball, tournament, 5* outside and I am stuck with gelled fuel on the Palisades parkway in Harriman, NY. A LOOONG way from my destination in Long Island.

Never again! ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-13          61714

It might also be helpfull if you guys would share how you do the liquid measurements considering many only buy 5 gallons at a time. I really need to start useing this on my truck. Are you guys just pooring it right in the fuel tank before you fuel up on your trucks ? ....

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Chief
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2003-08-13          61725

Dave, I bought some of the two stroke oil mixing syringe type looking things at Walmart. They come with a 6 inch clear tube extension that is great for getting into the additive can or bottle. I draw it out with the syringe and put it in a Stihl oil bottle of the correct size which makes it very convieient to carry in the BACK of the truck. (trust me.....you do NOT want to spill this stuff in your truck interior) Also makes pouring the additive in at the pump very user friendly as well. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-13          61726

I tend to view most additives as consumer fluff. Well, I had backup generator starting problems last winter during power failures at around -10F. Sort of turned me into a believer of small engine cleaners and fuel stabilizers. Well, maybe just more engine exercise would do it.

I do use a one thing does everything diesel additive. It's because of the fuel gelling thing (-30C was a very common temperature here last winter and it got colder too). I also use it because my injector pump was engineered before low sulfur fuels came out and maybe it needs help with lubrication.

I mix additives by the fuel jug. The additive can gives the amount of fuel that can be treated with the entire can. I prorate the amount required down to my fuel jug sizes and then measure the additive with a syringe. Feed stores have large syringes and drug stores have small ones. You can just draw how much is needed into the syringe until the rubber seal starts sticking to the body, which does happen fairly quickly but syringes are cheap.
....

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ScooterMagee
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2003-08-13          61728

Doc, interesting cost-to-benefit analysis. But, I would look at the same cost of $400 over 20 years as being only 38 cents per week. So, if it doesn’t harm the engine, and even if it only helps an infinitesimal amount, to me it would be worth it. Now, if it does absolutely nothing, then it’s a waste of money.

As, for your demographics of the board, also interesting. As at matter of fact, I’m 37. Which means I must work to the age of 70 (33 more years) to collect full retirement :( Or maybe if I’m lucky I’ll hit the lottery :)

I put 5 gallons in last night, used 2 oz of the Power Service product, measured it with an old glass measuring cup that I use around the garage. I’ll see if I notice a difference next time I mow.
....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-13          61745

I have used the screw on tops they sell at automotive stores. It works if the brand of additive you have has the clear slot on the side of the container for viewing and measuring. If not, I have poured the additive into empty (clean) gear oil containers, they have that nice spout and just about always have the measuring feature.

Chief is correct this stuff stinks and the smell does not dissipate very quickly! Mine never gets any closer to the interior of the truck than my bed toolbox. As sson as I leave the store it gets thrown in there, i remeber reading where someone had it come loose on the interiot carpet :o ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-13          61754

Magee, it certainly is a matter of perspective. Additives are something that is never in unanimous agreement, or oils for that matter. The cost per week is a good way to look at it pro. Most of us could benefit from paying a few cents more for premium fuel in our cars, but I bet very few do on a regular basis. It is after all only a few cents at a time and you will get potentially less engine knock and noise due to the higher octane, improved fuel economy (theoretically) and fuel injector cleaners. Chief; I had to take the Dodge back to the service Dept today and I wound up talking to the service manger about Diesels and additives. In short he says that Dodge has copyied the Duramax with their HO cummings with the common rail fuel injection system. Ie: no pump, so their will be no benefit of DFA in regards to that part on a Duramax or a HO cummings according to the Dodge boys. ....

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ScooterMagee
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2003-08-13          61756

Doc, I’ve always been a skeptic as far as chemical additives go, especially the “miracle” products sold via info-mercial. Since I’m a Newbie to diesels, I’m just trying to educate myself as to what's good and what's a gimmick, and as always, this forum is excellent at providing advice and many perspectives. Thanks.

Also, your right about the premium gasoline thing. I never use it, unless my wife is with me, then she insists, says it’s better for the engine :) ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-13          61759

It is better for your engine. Its just a matter of perspective and perceived value as to weather or not premium is worth the extra $. Again most trade in cars every few years now, so there would be little benefit unless it was needed by the engine (higher octane). However I tend not to sell anthing unless I have had it several years and at least 100k on it. I never used it in the past but the Hemi eats premium so now I just put it in every time. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-13          61760

Dave, on my Cummins which is the 2002 HO; it is equipped with the Bosch VP-44 injection pump and traditional type injectors. Different set up than the 2003 Cummins engines. They have a pump but the pump is a fuel rail pressure pump and the injectors are fired individually by the ECM. MUCH higher pressure (up in the 20,000 psi range I believe 23K) on the 2003 Cummins. That is how they were able to quiet the engine combustion noise down. The ECM varies fuel injected at different points of the piston stroke. It is a good design. Next year is when they start equipping all diesels with EGR systems to reduce NOX emitions and then the complaints with be high. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-13          61763

That reminds of the maze of vacum hoses and pumps on the mid 70's cars. lol. What I really need is about 500 gallons of cam 2 raceing fuel for the Hemi, free of course :) ....

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Chief
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2003-08-14          61818

If anyone is interested; here is a link to a place that has an "internet special" sale on Stanadyne fuel additive. Looks like a pretty good price but I am not sure what shipping would be. ....


Link:   Link to Stanadyne Internet Special

 
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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62004

Ok, well I guess I've been swayed as I bought 32 oz of Ps today. It was less than $5. If my math is correct I need 1.75 oz for 5 gallons. I have a Stabil bottle with the squeeze measure That I will fill with the PS to measure. ....

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plots1
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2003-08-17          62015

Doc, I've used power service since I bought my tractor, friend is a diesel mac, he highly recommended it. don't know how it effects it, but he said it really help's keep pumped lubed as well as ups the cetone rating. and no gell up in cold months. I respect his word and probley will continue to use it. Tell me if you notice some sort of difference when you add yours. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62023

I'm gonna put it to the test next weekend. Assumeing of course I dont have to spend next weekend up all night watching and filling a generator again. I had big plans for tractor useage this past weekend. RATS ! ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-24          62567

I put The DFA to the test this week, No difference in the truck at all. In the tractor however there was an appreciable noise reduction especially in engine "knock" at start up. I have to believe that means less wear, In short for the tractor I am sold. I was always under the impression that the stuff was much more expensive. I hope to start burning Bio Diesel in the near future as well. Dave ....

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plots1
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2003-08-24          62570

Doc, if thats the case in the tractor don't you think it's helping your truck also.It has to be lubing things better. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-24          62583

Plots. I think you might be assumeing that just because the tractor knocks less or has less noise There is better lubebricity. I think its more likely to be reduced from a higher cetane rateing just as a HP gas engine would knock with regular and not premium. The noise/comfort level on the tractor is the only reason I would use it as I will have this machine less than 2 years. On the truck there actually has to be something to "lube" to get that performance increase. You and I do not have traditional pumps that benefited so much from this stuff in the past. That was eliminated with the common rail fuel injection which is how GM got the HP/Torque increase with less noise. This year Dodge has mimicked that system on the HO cummings. Either way if I cant hear its not worth it to me to bother with the stuff. The engine is rated at 350,000 to overhaul. How much more do you really need ? dave ....

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