Go Bottom Go Bottom

Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-07          61179

Hello all,

I havent seen this product mentioned in the forums but I use it all the time. Its called Water Wetter by Redline oil.
It reduces water cooled engine's temprature 20-30 degrees
or more. I use it in my motorcylces which use to run hot,
and performance cars. Just add it to your coolant system and you will notice the drop after it circulates with use.
I hope this helps those with over heating problems...

www.redlineoil.com

Regards,
Ducati996



Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-09          61335

Despite the ironic name, there are many things wetter than water. I don't know if water plus glycol anti-freeze is wetter or not. I'm guessing the theory here is that reduced surface tension in the coolant improves contact and therefore heat transfer.

I'm not sure if additives that reduce water jacket cavitation also work by reducing surface tension. The additive may be beneficial for things other than over-heating as well, although coolant cavitation is mostly an issue in some large diesel engines. I do know that most owners' manuals don't have much to say about changing the coolant. My dealer says to do it every two years even in tractors that aren't run much and I think that's fairly common advice. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-09          61396

You can use "wetter than Water" till the cows come home and you will NEVER see a coolant temp drop at the engine. If you want to talk about how fast the heat is transfered from the engine to the radiator that is a different story! The thermostat controls the heat and doesn't open till proper designed operating temp is achieved then it opens no matter what coolant type is used. The temperature probe reports what the thermostat opens at. The only way you could see a difference on your Temp gauge is by changing the thermostat to a lower heat and that reduces diesel effieciency since the engine is running colder

Jeff ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-09          61403

Jeff R,
Ok then I never personally saw my highest operating temprature drop on my machines by almost 30 degrees because you said it wont happen? And that this product is used in many racing environments and is proven to work regardless of what the hell your thoughts are..
keep in mind the thermostat opens at a set temp ( lets say 165*) it dosent close until the temp is below that mark.
So if your engine climbs to a high of 210* (traffic, A/C)
Your thermostat is open but not cooling the system.
So lets say you add this additive, you find yourself in the same circumstance, but your highest temp is now lets say
195*, wouldnt you call that an "improvement?" Oh I forgot this is a "real life" example

hear them Cows yet Jeff?
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-09          61406

What you are experiencing is No flow of air over the radiator. That is what causing overheating of cars in heat in traffic. The coolant is returning to the engine just as hot as it left the engine. In compact tractor situations air flow is never a problem because the returning coolant is cooled less than the the temperature of the thermostat. Consequently, your temp gauge sees no temperature difference because the thermostat reduces coolant flow until the thermostat sees it's rated temp. The radiator can only release so many BTUs based on the number of veins and surface area. I challenge you to use your coolant and see if your temperature drops 20-30 degrees. It won't happen. If what you are saying that by using your substance my normal 165 degree diesel engine temperature will drop to 130-145, WHY WOULD I WANT MY DEISEL OPERATING THIS COLD????? Only way a normal diesel overheats is when it is being Worked HARD and the radiator can't get rid of the BTUS because the input BTU have exceded the cooling capabilities of the radiator. Under normal conditions a thermostat will just close till the engine heats the coolant to thermastats temperature and then it opens slowly. In any case I don't want to lose 20-30 degrees of operating temperature even if it could happen. A cold running diesel engine is a inefficient diesel engine. Why do you think those luvored flaps on the grills of the BIG Diesel Peterbuilts are for? Those luvors are temperature controlled to close in the winter to maintain engine temp when the thermostat can't keep the diesel at peak operating effiecientcy because there is so much difference in returning coolant temp and outgoing coolant temp to the radiator because of the super cold air passing over the radiator. Why do you think they use a radiator cap at 15-18 pounds? Because ethyl-glycol under pressure has a higher boiling point than the 212 degrees of H2O. I don't doubt the speed of the transfer of heat using a wetter than water substance, the thing I challenged you on is trying to see that difference on your compacts tractor temperature guage under normal operating conditions. I do use that Redline diesel fuel treatment. WORKS great in the winter in Michigan. TOMG told me about it and I can't say enough about it. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-09          61408

MArk.
Any radiator has engineered cooling capacity. It has a cooling curve based on the air temp passing through those veins and surface area and the velocity of the water. If the wetter than water substance brings more heat to the radiator than the radiator can get rid of , what did we accomplish? We just made our radiator too small for all the heat it has to get rid off????? The only way we are going to make that coolant cooler is drop the ambient air temp or increase the size of the radiators veins and suface area, decrease the temperature of the input coolant by reducing engine speed. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-10          61427

Jeff's points are well taken and I do think I was groping for a theory. I think the comment 'under normal operating conditions' is key. Yes, the thermostat should act to keep the temp up, although it would take some time. Thermostats aren't completely sensitive (nor am I) and their operation may not match flow and temp all that well. I'm guessing the temp could do some wondering around within normal operating conditions, as did the crappy box-store thermostat I had in my 1/2-ton before I got a better one.

How much wondering is normal (I do a lot of it myself) who knows? I guess the way I was trying to make sense of it is the case of heavy operation on a hot day. Tractors do over-heat. The thermostat would be fully open and maybe something that increased heat transfer in the rad would lower the temperature, but that case wouldn't be normal operating conditions.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61442

Personally I feel that tricks used in racing are just that, designed for racing. When you are concerned about the weight and cooling capacity of the rad then the every trick is an advantage.
Like the sticky tires that are used less than one race and replaced may items developed in racing have little utilitarian application. I don't know too many people that want to replace their tires every 250 miles or less.
From what I read the water wetter is design for racing, it has no antifreeze or boiling point elevation qualities. It is simply an additives package, anticorrosives, surfactants and defoamers. All of these are in a good antifreeze already. You are gaining cooling capacity due to the fact that water has a better heat capacity than ethylene glycol water or propylene glycol water. In fact water has a better heat capacity than almost any liquid except PCB's or their replacements. Added to a regular antifreeze solution you would have no visible effect. The information on the site is for water vs water with the Water Wetter Additives. Getting the highest performance from your system on race day only!!!! Unless you want a cracked block next winter. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61445

The majority of the people on this forum see the benefits
of this product ( certainly no negatives with this product!!) and where it has originated (Racing roots).
Most techniclogical advancements for engines (cars, boat, Bikes..) originate from the racing world and trickle down to other "fields" of engine uses.
It sound like jeff just wants to be an "arm chair engineer"
and come up with is own counter arguement. Its great at parties I'm sure, but dosent last long in the real world..
because in the real world you get tested in what you actaully know, not what you think you know.

This product was offered as a recommended suggestion only. You all have a choice as to use it or not. I understand tractors do not necesitate performance products or machines,
But it may help in its effeciency...

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61447

Tom,

You are correct about the temperature reaction time on the "coil type" thermostats in that reaction time is somewhat slow. Unlike the common coil type of thermostats, I have a different type of after market thermostat in my truck refered to as a "poppit" thermostat and it reacts quicker to temp changes. It does NOT have a visable "coil". I put both of them in hot water with a calibrated thermometer and the poppit type opened alot more quicker and closed faster than the coil type. I don't know what kind a tractor uses or if a poppit type is even available for tractors. I do know the poppit type is twice as expensive than a coil type though. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61448

Mark,

Radiator efficientcy has improved greatly primarily due to the cooling fins being made of Aluminium instead of brass. Aluminium tranfers heat much greater than brass. Thats why the heat sinks on electronic power supplys are made of aluminium.

I have been called alot of things but an arm chair engineer isn't one of them. Being a "REAL WORLD" Field Engineer in the tensile and metal hardness industry allows me to see first hand what goes into the decision making process of a product and thermodynamics plays a part which I am lucky enough to see the that process and talk to the people who design heat transfer equipment.

Are there really parties you can go to that people debate this stuff while drinking alcohol, eating nachos and listening to dance music???? I must be out of the loop on the thermodynamics party circuit. Do they have hot looking women there asking about your BTU transfer rate??? I think I'm missing somegood goings on without my knowledge.



jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61455

Peters,

You wrote:
"From what I read the water wetter is design for racing, it has no antifreeze or boiling point elevation qualities. It is simply an additives package, anticorrosives, surfactants and defoamers. All of these are in a good antifreeze already. You are gaining cooling capacity due to the fact that water has a better heat capacity than ethylene glycol water or propylene glycol water. In fact water has a better heat capacity than almost any liquid except PCB's or their replacements. Added to a regular antifreeze solution you would have no visible effect. The information on the site is for water vs water with the Water Wetter Additives. Getting the highest performance from your system on race day only!!!! Unless you want a cracked block next winter."

Pure speculation on your part with no factual basis to come to this conclusion. This is an additive, and if water & glycol combined offered the best efficient means of cooling then it would be moot point, and this product would have no place in the market.


Jeff R,

It very common for people to re-name and change their actual job descriptions or actual position to what ever seems more appeasing to the ear, and especially using the word "engineer" which is now the most abused word in the professional world. By all accounts you are a engineer when a degree (4 year BA/BS is obtained in a specific field). Regardless of years worked in a particular field, it does not subsitute an actual degree, but can compliment it, but never replaces it!!
I say this because just because you mention you are a "field engineer", dosent actually mean you are an engineer(who knows, maybe you are a degreed Engineer!!). I also say this because you offered nothing but random banter regarding this particular subject, but in the end point out
obvious and unrelated subject matter, which is annoying to say the least.

What set me off regarding this product sugestion, was the intent to help or possibly aid, in the event it was needed with someones machine. Then some jackass's come in with their .02 cents, which they obviously do not know what they are talking about to de-bunk this otherwise helpful suggestion.

otherwise i wouldnt give a shit,

Ducati996


....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61464

Ducatti;
I am sorry if you do not believe me. I do have a B.Sc., a M.Sc. and a Ph.D. and although I do not have a can of the water wetter in my hand I can read between the advertising speak and determine what is in the can that will provide what the performance they are describing. Just as I can read the label on the jug of antifreeze and know what the chemicals are added for.
I also have worked on race cars and equipment for race cars. We had pit passes for Indy for many years as a friend I consulted with supplied one part for their cars.
Yes it is an educated guess, but hardly speculation. I can mix you up a can that will function the same if you like or maybe even better. Naturally it will cost.
I realize that you are trying to help and suggest, but your initial supposition is incorrect. If you read through the information on the web, which I did, you should realize that to gain heat capacity in the coolant you have to drain out the antifreeze and add the Water Wetter and water. This provides you with one degree of antifreeze protection and lowers your boiling point from 265 to 250F. Not what you need year round in the tractor.
I can not tell you that it will do any harm except to you pocket book. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61468

Peter,
Not exactly sure which field these degrees specialize in(B.Sc., a M.Sc. and a Ph.D) is it in a science related field like Chemistry? Physics? not that is it really important, because I'm not moved or impressed either way...
Yeah I forgot the Indy experience as well....arent you just the jack of all trades...yep


Now if you mix it with just water( race only), gains could be expected up to 30 degrees, or about 15-20 ( I've seen it on my high end race bike-just one of many real life examples) with a 50/50 mix (typical application), not bad for something that cost only 3.99 to 4.99 depending on source. You only add it once.
I never even looked at/or considered the Diesel version, since most setups are a 50/50 mix anyway

From Web Site:
WaterWetter® Supercoolant is a unique wetting agent for cooling systems which reduces coolant temperatures by as much as 30°F. This liquid product can be used to provide rust and corrosion protection in plain water for racing engines, which provides much better heat transfer properties than glycol-based antifreeze. Or it can be added to new or used antifreeze to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems. Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass, and bronze systems.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-10          61476

Ducati,

Well now that you ask I do have 2 degrees plus. One is in MECH eng and the other is in Business Ad. Add in a jouneyman's machine repair for what thats worth. ALL I know is when tensile, Rockwell hardness, Brinell, and Microtesters screw up the major corporation's metal testing and quality control people call me in at 100.00 per hour plus expenses and I figure out what is going on. I pick peoples brains apart on their areas of expertise and they pick my brains apart. Both parties come out smarter from the experience. Now that you mention it we do have our machines at Goodyear and Firestone pulling rubber on tensile testers and durometers measuring the hardness of rubber. Plus as a some side humor we have a half million dollar tensile tester pulling silicone samples at Dow Chemical for breast implants and caulking. LMAO. Nothing but the best for Jennifer Lopez and the Hollywood set. Ona sober note I just finished 15 testing machines for the company that makes the engines for the cruise missle and 2 machines that check hardness on 50 caliber armor piercing and tracer bullets.

I get around don't I?



JeffR ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-11          61493

Well now, bruised ego and other attitude sure do get in the way of learning. A lot of what's done around here is figuring how things work and so helpful suggestions do get scrutinized. Maybe they shouldn't be made if genuine feedback about the IDEA isn't actually desired. But, it
is about the idea rather than the INDIVIDUAL who posted and a person should be able to get to there. Well, there could have been a bunch of 'Gee that's a great suggestion with happy faces plastered all around' responses. I'm not sure that is really any different and nobody learns anything as well.

I was coming at this sort of like Emerson ("a weed is a plant whose virtue has not been discovered") and wondering what is the virtue with this one. Additives do sprout in box stores like weeds and I do think many are virtues for vices most people don't have, but I was looking for a virtue here.

A possible virtue is replacement for depleted additives in anti-freeze. There is a fancy anti-cavitation system (DCA I think it's called). The additive comes out of the coolant fast enough that test strips are provided and sometimes drip systems are used to keep the additive replenished. Cavitation isn't much of an issue in most small diesels and I don't know how long ordinary coolant has anti-cavitation properties. Maybe the virtue is that it's cheaper to replenish anti-freeze than it is to change it. It really would be permanent then. Don't know, it's possible. Peters' comment about the additive not increasing heat transfer in the presence of glycol antifreeze is interesting. I'm thinking.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61503

Jeff R,

You might be suprised that I'm very familiar with the plastics Industry, including the workings of injection molding, extrusion, thermo-extrusion criteria, from materials handling, drying and blending systems, to temperature control equipment, granulators, robots, pelletizers and downstream systems for pipe and profile extrusion and this of course includes Rubber compounds and the machines that were directly supplied to Goodyear & Firestone, years ago....I will leave it at that, and that my education and experience covers a lot of ground...
This will be the last post from me on this subject in this forum however...I have said all that I wanted to actually say... ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61505

Ducatti;
I am afraid that you will not believe anyone. You have real life experience but not a controlled experiments. We can convince ourselves or anything if we believe that it will happen.
My degrees are in polymer chem. and engineering, my expertise is material interfaces.
They are claiming that they are lowering the surface tension on the water through their special additive and it is increasing the efficiency through the addition of a surfactant. Nothing but a surfactant will lower the surface tension and increase the surface contact.
Propylene and ethylene glycol also act as surfactants lowering the surface tension below 10 dynes. This is at room temperature at operating temp it will be lower. A good antifreeze also adds a surfactant that will lower the surface energy further. Note that the antifreeze will coat the inside of the polyethylene container which has a high surface energy. Therefore if the surface energy is near zero what is gained by the addition of the Water Wetter solution? Certainly any performance gain can not be attributed to the addition of surfactant.
This begs the question what could be added to increase the SPC of the water? The answer is simple increase the ion content of the water for example salt water has been used in quenching steel for years as it has a heat SPC higher than water. Unfortunately you do not really want the ions in the cooling system as they will cause corrosion and can crystallise in the temperature gradient to clog the water channels. That is what the corrosion inhibitors are added to antifreeze for. One old Hot Rodding trick was the addition of water glass, sodium silicate. It would improve efficiency and seal any leaks in the rad for a time. Normally the time to get the wreck sold, a lot cheaper than boiling and fixing the rad or replacing a warped head or cracked head or block.
Ducatti personally I don’t care if you are impressed or choose to believe. If the magic fairy dust works in your mind then use it, I am just trying to provide a heads up to others.
I guess you fit the mould of Ducatti owners that I know or more precisely knew. Many have committed the ultimate sacrifice for the preservation of the human gene pool.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61506

Ducati996, thanks for posting the Water Wetter info. I am not sure that I would use it in my tractor as I am not certain as to what the warranty implications if any would be and it is working well with factory stuff.

I hold a doctorate from the Rush Limbaugh Institute for Political Studies, a Walmart discount shopping coupon, and a Swiss Army knife. ;-) I do very much appreciate your participation and willingness to share info. and experience as I have learned a great deal from such posts. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-11          61508

Well, the door's not quite closed. Good! There's always room here for people able to extend the span of our content. At least that's what I value. Of course, many people just want straight short answers to simple questions and I don't do that so well. Fortunately we do that pretty well here too but not usually from me. My vice is to speculate and analyze.

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61523

LMAO at Peters and Ducati996. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61529

Peters wrote:
"I guess you fit the mould of Ducatti owners that I know or more precisely knew. Many have committed the ultimate sacrifice for the preservation of the human gene pool."

Should I wish you the same fate the next time you step in your minivan? or better yet at your next Indy race wish you get hit in the head from the Pace cars brake shoe?
I normally dont go down this road, and actually rather not be banned from this forum if this continues this way.
But a comment like his I take personal for many reasons.
I rather keep it on the subject at hand and I'm willing to do so.

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61534

We are losing our thin veneer of civilization here. Maybe we can leave the personal crap on the editing floor.

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61536

I guess my attempt to inject some humor and defuse things did not work too well. I second Mark's motion. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61541

I'm not even going to step out from behind Mark's sagebrush long enough to vote on the motion, but will pass my proxy to anyone brave enough to stand up when the vote is called.

BTW, and without trying to stir the pot any, the only sure-fire method I have found for keeping my machines running cooler is to keep the rad pre-screens clean.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61544

Murf, good point. I hope I did not come off sounding like I am standing on a soap box as I have let some folks get my goat in the past and posted things I should not have. I have since gone back and edited those out and make my best effort to behave and welcome ALL ideas. Lots of good info. and knowledge in this thread. Just hate to see things get off track and personal over a misunderstanding.

Keeping those screens clean is a bear especially when the vegetation is dry. I have to stop and shut the engine down about every half hour and clean the debry off the intake screens. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61547

OK, since everybody is making nice now I'm going to give away one of my prized profesional secret tips for cleaning pre-screens quickly and easily.

Take the existing pre-screen out of your machine, measure it carefully, then THROW IT AWAY.

Buy some aluminum screen material, stiff tubing of the right diameter and 2 part epoxy from your local hardware store, and heres the tricky part, get enough to make a screen TWICE AS LONG as the original one. Slit the tubing length-wise and epoxy the screen into it into a panel the same height, but twice as long as the old one.

When the pre-screen get clogged by all those seeds, etc., desperately trying to clog your rad you now just slide the clean half of the screen over in front of the rad and leave the dirty part alone running along side the far hood panel. The air from the fan blowing through it will clean it off in minutes and you only have to stop for a few seconds. When the second section becomes clogged, you just slide the first part back in front of the rad and away you go again.

Best of all, this method not only reduces down-time, and the length of time you have to fiddle next to a VERY hot engine before you can get back into the A/C, but it means you don't have to SHUT DOWN a very hot motor either, the 'slide' can be accomplished with the engine, and therefore cooling system operating.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61551

Murf, that is an INCREDIBLY good idea and one that won't work on my JD 4310. A twice-as-long filter would mean I'd have to drive around with the hood open. Well, it might work - after crashing into a tree I wouldn't have to worry about cleaning the filter anymore :)
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
boatman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 Idaho
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-11          61552

We used to always run water in our racing engines(with high pressure caps to raise the boiling point of the water). Anti-freeze/coolant was/is not recommended due to it's flammability. Our competitors were using Water Wetter in the early eighties. We started using it somewhere around 1986 or 1987(can't remember exactly when). The product has always worked as advertised.

I have never used the product in any other situation.

Ducati996, you,your motorcycle,and all motorcyclists are always welcome. Some of the nicest people I have ever met were met while riding. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61554

I guess I need to but this simple so we can all understand. Data posted on the Redline website does not support claims.
"WaterWetter® Supercoolant is a unique wetting agent for cooling systems which reduces coolant temperatures by as much as 30°F. This liquid product can be used to provide rust and corrosion protection in plain water for racing engines, which provides much better heat transfer properties than glycol-based antifreeze. Or it can be added to new or used antifreeze to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems. Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass, and bronze systems."
The only logical chemicals that would provide what they are claiming is a heavy ion salt, which is not something you want in the radiator. Without analyzing that is in it I would not put it in my rad.
The information on the web does not support this claim above as the state. "Water Wetter also provides rust and corrosion protection in plain water which can provide additional cooling efficiency compared to antifreeze". The operative word is can which is true if you are using a cheap antifreeze or straight ethylene glycol.
Some of the data is only applicable to racing as they show that it does not decrease the friction of rubber on pavement. Following that logic it provides no more lubricative value than water on the rubber seals in my pump seals. OK for the short rebuild time of a race engine but not something desired in my tractor or diesel truck.
I did not start these personal attacks, I was just politely try to explain that people need to read things and analyse not just follow discussion not just read the advertising claims. Ducatti made a suggestion so I went to the side and read the complete post. I am just trying to make sure that no one damages something. The material has no antifreeze value, no lubricative value and may contain some chemicals that could damage the rad from the scant information on the web.
Ducatti;
Other than the fact that you place the material in your race bike and the thermocouple read a lower temperature what expertise do you possess that would make me believe in Redlines claims? Or do you just sell Redline products?
Chief;
Are you just venting after years of repression under the authority of officers? I know it is difficult to repect some young officer with the ink still wet on his degree. I also know that common knowledge is not to common these days, but there are the odd rare people with both practical and theoretical knowledge. I know of at least a couple out there out of the thousands of engineers I know. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61556

Sorry Ken, and everyone else, I think I left out one small detail, something I think I do all to often in the interest of brevity, which apparently I'm not too successful at either.

The screen is FLEXIBLE, when you move it over to the clean side you just bend it back alongside the motor and put the side panel back on.

I don't know how the engine compartment on brands X & Y work, but our 'Bota's use a 3 part system, two side panels that open with just a catch, and a 'hood' panel that must be unbolted to remove.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61564

Peters, you're barking up the wrong tree buddy. :-) ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61570

Boatman,

Thanks for the support !!

Peters,
I dont sell nor buy stock in the company. I simply think the product works close to what it claims. Actually their claims seem conservative to me...

I also offer a truce for going for the jugular. This is offered to any other person I singled out inadvertanly...
Olive branch extended here first...

Ducati996 ( both bike, car & Tractor enthusiast) ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-11          61579

Ducati996,

We like you DUCATI!!!! LOL, I don't know about the other guys but I would be real intersted on getting some info on those parties you were talking about. I am sure there are some hot honey engineer babes who we could discuss the force enertia dynamics of the vacuum/suction power in cfm it would take to get the chrome off a trailer hitch ball.



LOL

Jeffy ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-12          61614

I think the subject is pretty well exhausted but I've got to observe that we still don't know many specifics about the product. Despite the rough edges (easy for me to say since my tail wasn't twisted nor did I do any twisting) mine and Peters orientations are much the same. If you want to know about something follow the data, and there just isn't much here. I consider experience and data as equals and there's not a lot of that either. I think we should recognize that we're aren't doing research here (I've done some and Peters has done more) but we're more dealing in opinion and so we should.

I distinguish fact from opinion, by writing 'I believe' or 'I think' in many of my posts. Those identify my opinions and I don't confuse them with fact. I assume anybody who differs has a better opinion but it's fair game to ask why it's better. Often I learn something but sometimes somebody else does. No matter, it's still just opinion. Nothing to get in a knot about and in the future I hope there are fewer knots and more info. Maybe some 'derating' of opinion might be good too. Perspective always is good and asserted fact always stops conversation. There may be plenty to argue about but nothing to talk about.

Several of the District Soccer Boards I was on had difficult long meetings where not much was accomplished. One guy in particular had a habit or preceding most comments with 'Don't take this personally but...' The buts were always followed by 'you are this, you are that, and you are something else.' One meeting I hopped in at the 'but' and said 'If you don't want somebody to take something personally then don't say anything personal.' That meeting was a lot shorter. The 'you are's' really are deadly and shouldn't be here at all.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61643

Sometimes my wife reads this stuff over my shoulder to see what I am doing or reads the e-mail notifications before I get to them.

Does she really have to read about sucking the chrome off a trailer hitch? ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61647

Mark,

Does she have a sense of humor or not?

Jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61650

I second that, my good lady regularly reads what is on the screen as she's going by, or before "alt, tab'ing" to check her email or the weather, etc., and several times she has remarked on the 'content' albeit usually it was when there was 'verbal jousting' going on.

I had even mentioned to Dennis on one instance about setting up some standards, to be voluntarily adhered to by all, in order to keep up the 'gentlemanly' decorum we have come to expect here.

A VERY ancient 'fraternity' that I belong to has such a set of standards, they are observed pretty strictly and are not hard to stay to at all, but observance pretty much eliminates the possiblity of 'hard feelings'

They are as follows;

1) no speaking of religion or politics.
2) no speaking of another's ethnicity, religion, education or character in a derogatory way.
3) no talk which could offend anyone.

It eliminates most sources of contention, and therefore disagreements rarely occur.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61651

She has a wonderful sense of humor.

In fact she just asked me how an accredited engineer could misspell "inertia".

She does draw the "humor" line, as do I, on this side of sexual debasement, prostitution and asexual sex.

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61655

Mark,

Ok...... Mark NOOOOOOOOOOO problem. Tell your wife in the real world accredited engineers don't get paid the BIG bucks to spell. That is what they hire secretaries for. On another note, most computer messages aren't the lack of spelling knowledge but a lack of typing skills and proofreading. Secretaries take care of that too. When I hired in to my present company, they said if we wanted to hire a laid off school teacher for spelling skills, where would we get a physical testing engineer?


I have an issue with the #3. on "no talk that could offend anyone"????

Last time I checked Oprah Winfrey hasn't been here much. Was rule # 3 written by Hillary Clinton and the touchy feely types? I haven't the time or the skills to do a brain analysis of what offends people or what doesn't. If you get your feelings hurt easily and haven't the social skills to interpret things on a broader non-personal basis, then if it was me, I guess I would live without talking. In my world the person stating his opinion is NOT responsible for what may or may not "offend" whatever context the listener receives the message.

Rule 3 is just another sad commentary on the failed Democratic Party social policy in today's screwed up politically correct world.


Rule #3 belongs in the world called "UTOPIA" .....hope I spelled it right?

jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61658

This is a tractor web site.

There are thousands of other web sites that deal with oral sex. Maybe you should go there for that particular sort of information exchange.

I understand all it takes is a credit card. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61659

I think #3 will never be attained but it is a worthy goal to strive for nonetheless. Too many people these days are going through life just looking for reasons to be offended.

If I said that a tractor I owned was unreliable and poorly engineered it would offend some owners of that brand, even if I posted supporting facts. Said owners would likely accuse me of not maintaining it properly, or abusing it, or not understanding how to work it, etc. So the thread jumps from one of opinion to one of personal attacks.

Somehow people invest their time/money/ego into the brands they buy and any slight of that brand results in a flaming response. I have to battle this demon within myself as well.

Perhaps a replacement for "No talk that would offend anyone" might be "Talk that even a mother would love". ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61660

I don't know Ken,

You should hear my wife when the kids have her all wound up to full operationg rpm. LOL!!!!! I have to go outside. The points Mark and you bring up are well taken. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61663

Jeff, put your knee back down, it keeps coming up suddenly.

If your interpretation of 'offend' is that loose then maybe the problem isn't with the 'rule' ....

This set of rules date back to the early 1600's, they have worked very well ever since then.

Of course if you can come up with a better set, WE have OPEN minds, let's hear them.

They say the best measure of anything is what it is made up of, this particular group has been graced by the participation of (to name just a VERY few), every King of England and most of Europe for the last 400 years, Sir Winston Churchill, Darwin, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and just in the US alone, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Paul Revere, Joseph Warren, John Hancock, John Sullivan, Lafayette, Baron Fredrick von Stuben, Nathanael Greene, John Paul Jones, Warren G. Harding, Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson, Lyndon B. Johnson, William McKinley, William taft, Harry Truman, James Monroe, James Polk, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court John Marshall, James Bowie (for whom the knife was named), Kit Carson, William Travis, Gen. Omar Bradley, Ernest Borgnine, Admiral Richard E. Byrd, Walter P. Chrysler, Lt. William Clark & Meriwether Lewis, Buffalo Bill Cody, Davey Crockett, Col. Edward 'Buzz' Aldrin, Robert J. Dole, Henry Ford, John Glenn, Barry Goldwater, J. Edgar Hoover, Sam Houston, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Charles Lindbergh, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Gen. George C. Marshall, Audie Murphy, Robert E. Peary, Gen. John J. Pershing, Eddie Rickenbacker, Red Skelton, and John Wayne.

Of course they were probably all 'touchy, feely types' without anything worth listening to and nothing to contribute to society......

If you need any convincing of how worthy a goal 'not offending somone' is ask MArk how many times he had to deal with 'offended' people in his law-enforcement career, and how often 'offended' required hospitalization.

Goals are meaningless unless you're willing to try to achieve them.

Best of luck.


Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61703

Mark,

LOL .....Hey buddy. I wasn't too long ago we all were talking about oral sex and the FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES named BILLY CLINTON!!!! When somebody brought up the subject did you tell them to go to a porn site and use a credit card????? If that was the case then a good oral sex porn site would be THE WASHINGTON POST and I understand I can use my credit card to get a Washinton Post subscription. Did you cancel the subsciption to your newspaper and when they talked about DNA evidence on Monica's sweater or the Clinton's now famous cigar stunt? You seem to not want to laugh about stuff like this when it doesn't meet your standards. THIS IS "REALITY IN TODAY' WORLD"!!! Did you turn the TV channel when Letterman and the other major talk show hosts cracked "off color" jokes about the Clinton/Lewinsky fiasco? Come on.....this is the year 2003 not Ozzie and Harriet's 1950's world!!!!! We are all adults here and we sure can laugh about all the garbage that goes on in a non offensive way.



Jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-12          61706

Let's go through that group of people and see what we really got.

J Edgar Hoover OFFENDED 300,000 Japanese Americans by putting them in concentration camps for 4 years WITHOUT constitutional right to a trial but strictly by the slant in their eyes. The King of England offended my relatives by religeous persecution. William Taft offended society by having a child out of wedlock. Lyndon Johnson was a foul mouth SOB and offended many in his rise to the presidency. Henry Ford was a Nazi sympathizer and offended the WW2 effort by selling war materials to both sides. Jesse Jackson is a offensive black racist who had a child out of wedlock. Douglas McArthur thought he was a military dictator running the United States till he was offended by Harry Truman. John "Blackjack" Pershing offended somebody when he used the Blackjack and got the nickname. Jim Bowie developed the Bowie knife for Mexicans that offended him. Red Skelton was famous for off color sexual innuendo jokes.

How in Hades did Earnest Borgnine get into this group???

Kit Carson, Buffalo Bill, William Travis, and Sam Houston killed American Indians and Mexicans that were offensive to him. Darwin OFFENDED EVERBODY with his theory of Evolution.

Benjamin Franklin offended many by his many extra-maritial affairs. John Hancock killed the British who offended him by acts of terrorism.

James Monroe offended the British so they burned the White House.

Walter Chrylser offended his employees with sweat shop working conditions so they formed the UAW.

Do I need to go on here?

The word offend means many things to many people. But the best definition I can think of is the word "offend" means "the end justifies the means" and " might makes right" ...and if your opinion differs from mine and offends me then I can do anything I please to defend my opinion.

Did anyone notice the aforementioned group of people were on the side of the "winning teams"? No such thing as offensive behavior or war crimes when your team wins is there? JOe Stalin was on the winning team and he murdered 25 million people, Why isn't he on your list. He was our ally and helped Omar Bradley and Goeorge C Marchall win the win WW2??

Think about it.

I sure am glad these rules from the 1600's aren't being used today or I would be jailed then executed......all because I "OFFENDED" somebody's self imposed RULES on offensive actions.



Jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-14          61837

Hmmmm, lets see now, "But the best definition I can think of is the word "offend" means "the end justifies the means" and " might makes right" ...and if your opinion differs from mine and offends me then I can do anything I please to defend my opinion."

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary "offend" is defined as either "to transgress the moral or divine law, to violate a law or rule : do wrong" or "to cause difficulty, discomfort, or injury, to cause dislike, anger, or vexation". It goes on to say "OFFEND need not imply an intentional hurting but it may indicate merely a violation of the victim's sense of what is proper or fitting.".

"...then I can do anything I please to defend my opinion."

That, sir, is called revenge, and it is the REACTION to offence, not the definition of it.

As for YOUR interpretation of history, many people before you have tried to re-write it to please themselves or suit their goals and intentions.

You can question peoples intentions or activities till the cows come home, but 'until you walk a mile in their shoes...' you don't really know what, why or how they did what they did.

As for "The King of England offended my relatives by religeous persecution." I think you are confusing persecution IN England with persecution BY England, as a governemnt they officially renounced religious persecution in 1689, just when did your people come to America.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-15          61874

Murf,

Renouncing religious persecution is one thing, what England did is strictly another. Look at Irish and Scottish history after 1689. If you think those people weren't persecuted by religion I don't know what persecution is. England ruled by an IRON FIST way past 1689. The American Revolution, French and Indian War, War of 1812, and the various European sea and land conflicts are prime examples.

Abe Lincoln renounced Slavery with the Emanicipation Proclamation no doubt. But would you have wanted to be a black person from 1864 to say 1966??? So much for formal declarations. Of all the people on that list, The one I despise the most is that SOB J. Edgar Hoover. No where in American history has the USA stripped it's citizens of all their possesions, packed them into a cattle car train with 2 suit cases and imprisoned them for the duration of WW2 without so much as a legal hearing. ALL BECAUSE THEY HAD SLANT IN THEIR EYES. So much for the piece of toilet paper we call the Constitution. Then to ad insult to injury 45 years later the US gives the offended Japanese Americans 20,000 dollars to appease their unlawful incarceration for 4 years!!!!! Heck, you can get more than that with a slip and fall or a dogbite in my local district court. How many Italians American or German Americans were imprisoned??? The FBI only picks on and offends the people who can't defend themselves. Can you imagine the US imprisoning Italian MOB figures with links to Italy and "EL DUCE" during WW2?? Fat chance that would happen. How many American GIs want to admit they were prison guards in Arizona and Wyoming watching over their fellow citizens with automatic weapons?? Let's get a Memorial Day parade going for those soldiers that served their country so well during WW2 as a prison guard for Japanese Americans and see how many would show up!

While we are touching on my favorite war, WW2 military history tells us that for every 1 soldier on the front line 6 were needed in the comfy rear supporting that 1 soldier on the front line. How come when you have a military parade or a WW2 ceremony, every Tom, Dick and Harry WW2 soldier that ever wore a uniform comes out of the cracks and tells you HE was ALWAYS on the front line shooting a gun and playing a unheralded Audie Murphy???? WW2 guys are so full of crap it makes me sick. The funny thing about the situation is there is NO way of proving who did what. 1 out of 6 guys got to shoot a gun. Where are all these other 6 guys representing nearly 4 million that never had combat experience?? Every American Legion and VFW hall has more guys bragging about their WW2 heroism than fleas on a dog. Find me 1 guy that will say "I didn't do squat in WW2 except push paper and count candy bars and cigarettes". That is politically incorrect. I still stand by my statement that the list of aforementioned
characters is a poor example on how to explain what is "offensive behavior" by anybodies definition.

LMAO....What the heck is Earnest Borgnine doing in there anyway? Does his part in McHales Navy have something to do with it?? I will betcha one thing though. There were real people in a real WW2 that were similar to the bungled characters in McHales Navy. The US NAvy had many Captain Binghamtons and to the good fortune of many soldiers those officers made their decisions in the rear where people didn't have to die because some officer was a screw-up. Some weren't so lucky. Ask Admiral Kimmel or General Short what they did in WW2. One was horsebackriding and the other was playing golf when the Arizona hit the bottom.

I have debated offensive behavior especially during WW2 with some real well informed and educated military historians including GIs and the only thing that we all are in 100% agreement on is that the US won the War only because of a Massive and UNLIMITED supply line of men and material that the Axis powers could only have imagined.

Enough of this. If anybodies interested. I have 2 great stories on massive military screw-ups by a local hardware store owner and a father of a college buddy who served as loader of a 37mm antitank gun and the other a Sherman Tank driver respectively during the push to Germany. Their stories will never make the history books, but they sure are interesting.


Jeff

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-15          61899

I used to dwell on history and things philosophic but it just made me feel worse. So does the news or most anything in the larger world. I've been reading Walter Mosley (the novels and the essays) and listening to Louis Prima and the New Orleans Gang lately. I think I might actually survive and with an improved disposition. Maybe back to tractors in the meantime. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-15          61900

WOW !! My measley little topic took a "Tangent" to some unkown cordinates...

Interesting as hell now, and I have to sit this one out..Not my area of expertise !! ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-16          61972

The last book I read was "Band of Brothers" by the late Stephen Ambrose that was made into a HBO mini series produced by Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg. One good book and movie about the 101st Airborne.

Jeffr ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-16          61973

101st Airborne Divison (Air Asault) Hoooooooaaaaahhhhh!!!!! Bark! Bark! Bark!!!!!! Glad those days are behind me! LOL! ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-16          61983

Well Jeff;
I doubt that we can all agree that the US won the war. We can all agree that the US was on the winning side, but to think the US would have won it alone would be pure fantasy.

I know a number of friends that were US service men in WW II. None of them claim to have been at the front despite serving in the far flung points of the world. Maybe you need to spend less time in the bar.

I have heard my share of Nam stories. A lot of which are less than accurate.

I only know one that claims he was just a clerk, yet has a purple heart licence plate to confuse.

The press and view of the day in WW II all touted that the Allies won the war. I have never understood how that was converted to we won the war.
The facts just do not stand up to the hard reality. The Russians lost 3 million soldiers fighting the Germans. US losses pale considerably when you think they lost 10 for every US service men lost on two fronts. Who took the fight out of the Germans? They could have sat back defensively, waited for a second font and let the western allies spill blood.

Most historians today admit that there was a few factors that won the war. One was superior Radar technology. The British supplied this technology to MIT Rad. Lab for additional development. Another was intelligence and code breaking, another British supplied leg. The other was production capacity and materials, obviously the US contributed more to this in the end than the other allies, but not all was used either.

Even something as secretive as the Manhattan project, which had little real impact on the outcome of the war was not as much an American project only as you may think. At the time of the war there were only 3 sources of high grade uranium ore, Canada, Russia and the Congo. Ore from the Congo on the docks in NY were shipped to Canada for purification to uranium oxide as was material ore from Canada.

An agreement was signed with the Commonwealth countries making the Manhattan project part of the western allies providence. The first Canadian nuclear power reactor was commission in 46 on the campus of MacMaster U in Hamilton Ont.

One of the first nuclear accidents was the bomb that was lost off an aircraft over the gulf of St Lawrence in the 1950s on route to Goose Bay.
As Tom states, sometimes ignorance is bliss, but conversely those that forget history are destined to repeat it.

If we act like Romans, we are destined to collapse like the Roman empire despite world domination. Only one empire has returned to power after decline and it was only through returning to the knee. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-16          61992

Peters,

Good Post. Only thing is that I don't hang out in bars since I don't drink.
The US was considered to have won the War because we equipped ALL our Allies. How long you think England could have lasted without the Liberty ships bringing in food and war supplies?

You are most correct about the Radar technology. But even a stupid enemy has the time to come up with better technology when the MIT Lab in MA was out of range for German bombers. The German U boats had a field day torping ships off the atlantic seaboard but you won't see that in the history books.

The US didn't have a working torpedoe during the Pacific Theater till late 1943. Nor did the US have a fighter plane to compete withe Zero till Grumman came out with the F6F Hellcat in 1943. Same deal with US destroyers till the Fletcher Class DDs. Ask my USMC uncle why he went through basic training with a WOODEN RIFLE in November 1944. Good thing the US got Radar because the US NAVY was getting the hell beat out them at the Savo Island area/ Guadalcanal by the Japan's Navy at Night with the 10,000 yard range Long Lance torpedoe.

As far as the Russians losing 3 million soldiers, they lost them because they were fighting a defensive fight with inferior and scarce weapons till they moved their munition factories back to the URAL Mountains so the German couldn't bomb them. Hitler underestimated the power of a Russian winter and a LONG supply lines when he launched Operation Barbarosa. The Russians came out with the T-34 Tank, the sturmkovich, and the Yak fighter. The Russians cleaned up at the world's largest tank battle against the German's poorly maintained after 18 months in battle the Panzer, Panther and Tiger. Using horse mounted soldiers to attack German positions contributed to the 3 million losses, but it bought them time to get equipped and re-group till they had offensive capability. The Russians sacrificed men for time. Thats why the losses were so high.

The M4 Sherman tank was the 2nd worst of the war next to Japans garbage tank. The only reason the Sherman was used is because we could make MANY of them and brainwash the crews to man them while the German Tigers and Panthers ran out of AMMO busting them to pieces before the Sherman could get into range with that low velocity 75mm gun. The Sherman tank tradgedy against the German tanks was one of the biggest mis-matches of the war and many tank crews paid the price with their lives for a known piece of inferior steel garbage.

On the positive side, a HUGE major factor for the US was the MI Garand and the 50 cal Browning. Tough to beat a semi automatic 8 shot against a German bolt action 98K. Many German Generals said after the war they wished they had the Garand and the 50 cal. The same German Generals said the Sherman Tank was joke in capability and it was only superior when The Sherman outnumbered the Tiger and Panthers 10 to 1. Wonder why the Army didn't tell that to the tank crews and my other great uncle that crawled into those steel coffins?????

You are most correct about the atom bomb. the US had the brain power but No materials.

Other than that I loved your post. Wanna hear the story about my buddy the hardware store owner who was told the 37mm anti tank gun could take on a German Panther with NO PROBLEM??? It's great and it is sooooooo sad.


JeffR ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-09-10          63521

Jeff this is way off topic but I really have one issue with the earlier post.
At the time the US did not consider that it won the war read the papers and I have never met a US service man that was near the front that talks that way. They understood the sacrifices of our friends. It is the subsequent generations with the help of the media that confuse the issue.
Canada also supplied food and material to all the allies including the US. Intelligence OSS people were mostly trained in Canada. Did it win the war? For sure Eh!!
I guess I never understood how materials become more important than intelligence and human blood.
The key to radar technology was the brilliance of the concept of the British magnitron not the engineering at the Rad lab. Any radar that we possessed was through British transfer of technology.
How long do you think the US would have stood if Germany and Japan had attacked the US without the commonwealth and Russia. What makes you think the US would have been better prepared than the USSR when they were attacked? We certainly were not that well prepared for Japan's attack in Dec 41. We did not stop their advance until they were threatening Australia, India, Alaska and Hawaii with commonwealth support. Were would we have been without it?
Like chess we have a hard time remembering all the moves on the board only the final outcome. Yet all the moves contributed to the win. The defensive moves are as important as the offensive it taking the fight out of your opponent.
The post war media and Hollywood have contributed the confusion and problem. What happened to a healthy scepticism for what people read and heard.
The defence of Hong Kong where the 3K soldiers took out 30,000 Japanese troop before being killed is forgotten while the battle for Corigador is remembered as Hollywood and the American media was there.
We forget the landings at Dieppe France in 42 which tested German defences, taught valuable lessons and helped keep armour tied to the north on D day. Hitler thought we needed a port. How effective would the Sherman Ronsons been if they had met the full force of the Panzers on the beaches? What about the portable ports? How did this British units work contribute to over all success.
Unlike a baseball game where one error or heroics of one player make the game, the war was like a hockey or soccer game where each move of every player was critical for success. The guy supplying the sticks is critical to the teams success but how do you think the other team players would view him if he takes credit for winning the match? He supplied most of the sticks!!!
What if he was only the water and stick boy for the first half of the game and didn’t decide to get on the ice until the second half? Add to this the fact that he was afraid to get into the game until one of the other team’s player reach into the bench and blacken his eye, making the game personal. Only after this humiliation does he decided leave the safe confines of the bench and his stick selling business, despite the fact he is already suited up for play. How should the other bloodied players feel when he starts recounting how he won the game years after the fact?
What would we think of AM General if it claimed it had won the Gulf war because it had supplied the HUVs or General Dynamics as it had supplied the majority of fighters?
When we take credit for something that was a team effort we belittle the contributions of the other players and alienate them. In life and in politics you do no good in alienating someone. Ultimately you are the looser. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Water Wetter by Redline oil -HIGHLY Recommended

View my Photos
jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-09-11          63655

Peters,

We forget Dieppe in 42 because it was a colossus British and Canadien screw up, that in part is why an American General named Eisenhower was put in charge of ALL ALLIED European WAR EFFORTS.....to prevent similiar Dieppes. If Dieppe had been successful, how long do you think British and Canadien troops could have been supported by Britain in 1942 after landing???? NOT LONG because that was impossible. Dieppe was a good example of what not to do. Total stupidity and mindless suicide of good soldiers who paid with their lives for incompetant British leadership.

Commonwealth support??? How many warships did the your "Queen" and your "Commonwealth" have at Coral Sea stopping the Jap advance to Australia........NONE! The United States STOPPED the Japs in the Pacific at Coral Sea and Midway singlehandidly...without 1 Commonwealth warship because the Japs sunk all British warships prior to Dec 1941. Canada had no "heavy" naval ordinance in the Pacific and the entire War because Canada relies on the US to protect them!!! The United states ended that "Commonwealth" stuff in 1776 and 1812 for good reasons.

Canada was a good player in WW2, but a good player is "told" what to do. The three main allied leaders in WW2 were Roosevelt, Churchhill, Stalin. Canada wasn't in the BIG 3, but like the good lil troopers they are, they took and followed orders well. The Industrial might of the United States in WW2 ...WON the WAR PERIOD. Get over it, at least Canada was on the winning team as an important contributing player, no more no less. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, is the nature of war. It is better to get your feelings hurt and be offended while being on the winning side than to moan and groan because history didn't give your efforts the attention you thought they deserved. There is no democracy is post war historical publications, just major players, minor players, winners and losers. Canada's WW2 role was a minor player with contributing overall value as an ally. History may have slighted Canada but that is the way it goes.


Jeff ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


  Go Top Go Top

Share This
Share This







Member Login