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Block heaters do I need one

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Eddie Suckow
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2001-10-08          32276

This will be my first winter with a diesel blowing snow. It'll sleep in the heated garage most of the time but it may occasionally stay outdoors (hopefully not though). I'm on the top of a hill in central Maine, real windy and cold. Do I need a block heater for those occasional times it stays outside or will it crank?----Also, when do I need to start putting additive in the diesel? It's in the 50's during the day and 30's at night right now.---Thanks, big ed

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steve arnold
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2001-10-08          32283

my deere (with good battery) always started down to -10F, no heater.
....

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Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2001-10-08          32302

I figure that the block heater isn't just about starting - I think that a warm engine wears less and lasts longer. Certainly it doesn't cost much to buy one. They are about $25 and then you have it if you want to use it. There isn't any downside to them.
The same goes for the diesel additive. Put it in the tractor and the fuel container now and then you won't have to wonder when. It won't hurt it anything if you run it in warm weather.
Some of the diesel lore comes to us from big industrial engines made to be run continuously and where a few pennies/gallon in additive is a noticible amount of money. But it doesn't work the same when you scale it down to compact tractor size. ....

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Eddie Suckow
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2001-10-09          32309

Thanks for the input. I may keep my eyes open for a cheap heater but will probably just see how it does without. My garage has radiant floor heating so the tractor should warm up fairly fast, as far as the cold start thing goes. I have a block heater on my truck that I never use, wonder if it can be rigged to work on the tractor? --- big ed ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-09          32310

I've got the same notion as others. Block heaters are good in cold climates and not just because the engine may be a bit easier to start. There was a discussion awhile back about a spun bearing on an older Ford. The owner summarized and said that he was going to use a heater in the future. I believe the idea is that very cold engines and thick oil could contribute to the spun bearing. An issue that hasn't been mentioned is starter motor speed. Diesels have to spin fast to start. A warm engine spins easier and is less of a challenge for the starter and battery. For specifics on diesel additives, the cloud points of some #2 summer blends can be as high as 30F. The cloud point is the temperature at which wax crystals start to form and can clog a fuel filter. It doesn't take actually gelled fuel to stop a diesel. I use an additive that contains anti-gel as well as injection pump lubrication. As Roger says, the stuff is really almost free to run in a compact. I also start buying #1 diesel about this time of year since there is a nearby supplier of off-road #1. I believe the cloud point of most #1 is around -25F. It gets colder than that here so I still use an additive. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-10-09          32311

Eddie, with radiant heat your tractor will be more comfortable than I will be this winter! Tho' I'm wondering if we are talking about the same type of block heater. I used to use an outboard heater system called a Red Devil. Believe it cost about $100....It was fairly bulky, used radiator hose to make the connections, leaked all the time, and probably should have had its own pump. Plus it didn't heat all that well.
The modern block heater is a heating element that fits in place of a freeze plug in the block. It has it's own element on the inside and a socket built into the surface of the plug replacement. The whole device takes up no more room than a freeze plug and the last one I got cost $19.95....plus $10.00 installation because I was feeling rich enough to hire it done that day. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2001-10-09          32319

Many of the new tractors will start without the assistance of a block heater, that doesn't mean that they won't last longer if the engine is warm from a heater. The battery being heated is another way to ensure a good start as a battery looses much of it's ability to start a engine, up to fifty percent, when it does get around zero. ....

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Eddie Suckow
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2001-10-09          32329

Wow, didn't know they were only $20. I guess I could just put the antifreeze that's in it back in after I install the heater right? The kind on my truck is the freeze plug type, only type I've seen. I'm wondering if my tractor being hydro makes any difference on this subject, it definitely helps to have that fluid a little warm from the start.--big ed ....

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Roger L.
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2001-10-09          32331

Yes, you can reuse the antifreeze of course. I don't think that being hydro would make any difference, but you might want to inquire if they have a similar heater for the transmission. Some brands do and others don't. My old US Yanmar is similar to a JD1050 and has a modified shuttle shift with a pressure lubricated transmission. So heating it up does help the shifting in real cold weather. The same oil reservoir works the power steering and 3pt - and the same sort of heater fits the tranny. It is more specialized than the one for the block. I paid $37.26 for the transmission heating element. ....

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TomG
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2001-10-10          32332

It might be easier to use multi-season, or synthetic, hydraulic oil rather than try to keep it heated. My NH dealer recommended using F200, which is a multi-season version of the 134D that is speced in my manual. Even so, I still use one or two magnetic heaters on the sump. Once last winter, it was so cold that my loader worked normally after warming up the tractor. After being outside for about 15 minutes or not using the loader, I wanted to stack some snow. I put the loader in float to pick up a bucket, and the thing sort of eased down in slow motion. It worked normally again until I didn't use it for awhile. I figure that warm oil from the sump chilled and thickened in the loader cylinders. Anyway, I got that effect while using multi-season oil. I don't think it would do the TX or pump any good at all to unwarmed straight-weight oil during the winters we get here. Regarding re-using anti-freeze. Yes, reusing it is good. Common anti-freeze is supposed to be disposed of properly, which is a pain so I wouldn't throw away anything I could reuse. On the other hand, anti-freeze in diesels is supposed to be changed every two years, and a diesel rated anti-freeze used. My owner's manual doesn't say that. My dealer says he's had machinery where engines have been ruined through not changing the anti-freeze. ....

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John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-10-10          32334

"My garage has radiant floor heating so the tractor should warm up fairly fast, as far as the cold start thing goes." ... Eddie

I wouldn't count on it, unless you leave the garage heat on all the time. When heating by just ambient air, you need a few hours of heat to warm up the mass of your engine/fluids. A heater in direct contact with the fluids/engine will do it much faster (i.e. an engine block heater)

John
(wishing I had a garage, let alone a heated one... hopefully by next summer???) ....

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steve arnold
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2001-10-10          32337

found an idea for saving energy when using block heater

....


Link:   heater timer

 
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steve arnold
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2001-10-10          32338

dooughhh!! ....


Link:   heater timer

 
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Peters
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2001-10-12          32372

Block heaters are not free. In Kentucky we had a wood furnace in the winter. I could notice the block heater on the electric bill. ....

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Peters
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2001-10-12          32373

Block heaters are not free. In Kentucky we had a wood furnace in the winter. I could notice the block heater on the electric bill. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-10-12          32374

I don't think I could pick mine out of the electric bill. We aren't everyday tractor drivers, so it only gets started from cold a few times a week. Usually I'll plug it in for an hour or so before starting it up. It doesn't amount to many hours. In fact, it is probably a net gain versus the freezer - which doesn't run very often in the winter. When we used to run a few stock tank heaters they did require a noticeable amount of electricity.
Like a lot of rural families we think of electrical power for heat and motors sort of the same way we think of paying wages when you need help......its just part of the expense of rural living. ....

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TomG
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2001-10-13          32377

An appliance timer might be useful if a tractor had to started first thing in the morning. For myself, I find that lengths of time on the block heater longer than 2-hours don't seem to make much difference to the ease of starting. Between coffee, breakfast, dog and this Board, I seldom get to the tractor in 2-hours anyway. I usually just go and plug in the tractor before letting out the dog for a run. It would be unusual if I got back to the tractor within a couple of hours. I guess that's a luxury I have.

For longer times on a heater: The engine oil may be a bit thinner if block heaters are left on continuously, but that's not relevant to me since I use a 0W-30 oil. However, when I expect to start the tractor in very cold weather, I do leave magnetic heaters on the hydraulic oil sump and a battery blanket or trickle charger plugged-in overnight. I think there is a risk of leaving block heaters on for long periods. I don't think that running a block heater does an engine any good when the temperature is warm. A heater that's left on a lot can be forgotten during unexpected warm spells.

....

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Peters
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2001-10-13          32381

I guess, I should say what I mean and mean what I say. I think a timer would be useful for me. In Kentucky we often had unexpected and unpredictable snow storms and I needed to clean the hill off before going to work.
I have a great memory, but it is not very long. I would leave the heater on by mistake and because we used so little power in the winter, despite being on the lowest power rate in the country I could see the difference in the bill, 15-20$ for a couple of days.
As for oil thinning, I am not sure if there would be appreciable degradation. In areas of extreme cold they are left on continuously. You need to plug the car in during the day and even in the parking lot. In the bearing surfaces the oil will see greater heats and pressure. ....

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TomG
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2001-10-13          32383

Hi Peters. Actually I was thinking of thinned oil as a benefit of a block heater. The temperatures get low enough here to thicken 10W or 5W 30 oils. A block heater may not do that much to warm engine oil, but when it's really cold anything that helps the starter spin fast and get the oil flowing is a benefit. In terms of costs, the total draw of my block, magnetic heaters and battery blanket is 850W. At our rates, running them for a month would be about $55.00CAN. That's enough for me to think about, which is why I am just as happy I don't have to run them continuously. Of course, another fortunate thing is that the main winter use of the tractor is snow removal. It doesn't often snow much here when it gets real cold, so weeks can go by without me plugging in the tractor. ....

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bcunderwood
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2001-11-22          33327

I had similar issues with the block heater and a timer. Here's what I did. At Home Depot (or any decent electrical supply or hardware store) purchase a remote control outlet ($20+/-). It looks like a short extension cord with a receiver box that has two outlets on it. From the house, I can aim the "clicker" at the barn and turn the block heater on for a few hours before I use the tractor. To know that the heater turned on, I installed a green light in the window of the barn that was also hooked up to the remote controlled outlet. This way there is no need to set a timer the night before. ....

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TomG
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2001-11-22          33332

That seems like a very useful idea. I find it's a real pain to slog out to the shed at 4am to plug in the tractor. Some times, I don't want to plug it in over-night if I expect the weather will get too warm (heaters aren't supposed to be used above 32F or however it's speced). Other times, somebody has to get out of the drive early and I didn't expect to have to plow. Just clicking a remote sounds pretty good. ....

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Art White
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2001-11-23          33354

I often find that when the weatherman predicts snow, we don't get it and when he doesn't we do get the snow. A remote sure would be handy to end the confusion as it normally only takes one hour to warm for all they can. Roger your price on the in block heaters is a little low, actually by about 1/2. It is possible to build a kit cheaper but first you need to know where the pieces fit in. The factory kits are by far faster and easier to install. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-11-23          33358

Yes Art, I'm afraid you are right about the price. I was a little low. I went and checked my receipts - there are very few of them for as many years as I've owned compacts, so they all live in a thin folder. Yes, the heaters I bought are the factory type and the one for $25.00 was in 1981.... :-)... and included installation! The latest one I bought was last year and was $37.26 + $6 for shipping.
I'm a real believer in pre-heating an engine in cold weather. Also in pre-lubing if you can pull it off. Right after that is seeing the engine start quickly so that fuel doesn't accumulate to run down the cylinder walls - washing them free of lube and ending up in the sump. High cranking speed leads to quick starts. I replace those little tractor batteries with as heavy duty of a battery as I can fit into the space. Usually a small car type.
Roger
....

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sgbotsford
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2001-11-23          33364


On one of the automotive news groups, a detroit engineer commented that engine life would be doubled if engines were equiped with electric oil pumps, and that people waited until the pressure got up to standard before turning the engine over.

Synthetic oil makes a big difference in winter. I use it in my car and truck on the first oil change after Halloween.

Aside from expense is there any reason NOT to use an appropriate spec synthetic? ....

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Peters
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2001-11-23          33366

Having the oil pressure come up before you start is not a new idea, just on that Detroit does not necessarily want. As one Chrysler exec. on stated they are in the business of selling motors not cars.
The old Pratt and Whittney radial WASP engine had a TBR (time between rebuilds) of 2000 hours. This is 2000 hrs on a 60 year old engine design with large safety margin. Why? Most of the wear in the engine occurs as you start the engine. The bearings ride on a layer of oil when running, but at start up there is no oil. With the old WASP engine you cranked until the oil light went out and then hit the mags. More modern airplane engines have automatic switches.
Another method of doing this is to have an accumilator to store the oil pressure. This is similar to the accumilator on the well pump. Solenoids valves shut the flow off trapping pressure in the accumilator when the engine is off. Race engines run with a dry sump, as oil splash reduces HP and an accumilator to hold the oil and pressure remotely.
None of this is new technology. Why don't the auto companies provide it? How can they sell you a new car or truck if the engine does not wear out? ....

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Art White
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2001-11-26          33421

Some makes tractors still come with manual fuel overrides. To cut the fuel will allow the engine to turn over till you give the fuel. This is a cheaper system than a seperate pump and system to prelube. ....

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Peters
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2001-11-26          33431

We did not make the switch the tractor manufacturers have. All the old diesels had this type of system. I do not know how the newer heavy diesels do it. ....

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