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F350Lawman
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2004-02-06          76169

"ZAPOPAN, Mexico - The Mexican crowd hooted "The Star-Spangled Banner." It booed U.S. goals. It chanted "Osama! Osama! Osama!" as U.S. players left the field with a 2-0 victory.

And that was in a game against Canada on Thursday before just 1,500 people.'

Are these the same friendly, hard working, industrious, religous,honest,etc, etc people the media describes as "undocumented workers" (illegals)who are currently invading our country???

I bet they bury this one on page 45, if they even run it. My local paper runs a weekly ad....err, I mean article about the benefits of illegal immigration.


I have seen many televised incidents of athletes fighting and going after jeering fans, I always thought there was no acceptable reason for it. I was wrong, I would gladly shake the hand of anyone who did so under these circumstances.

When will people realize that there are very few people coming to this country to BECOME Americans. They don't respect, care for or wish to adopt the ideals political system, or values that this country stands (stood) for. The trend these days is to come, take what you can get, live in a community much like the one you left. Not much assimilation going on any more. This goes not just for Mexico but for MOST of the other countries that are shipping their flotsam and jetsam to America.



Link:   Mexicans chant Osama, Osama at U.S. Soccer Team

 
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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-02-06          76179

I believe I vote for the Robin Williams plan:

Robin Williams Plan for the US

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan:

1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those 'good ole boys.' We will never "interfere" again.

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds,rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'"
....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-02-06          76181

I get a little tired of hearing about how the illegals do jobs that nobody else wants. The truth is they do jobs that nobody else wants at the wages the employers are paying. You can't tell me that picking cotton is a worse job than, say, roofing, but we don't seem to have a problem finding legal roofers. The difference? Roofers make a heck of a lot more money than cotton pickers. Without illegals in the country unskilled laborers would be paid more money. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-06          76183

Mining the border between Mexico and the U.S. and making it a free fire zone would stop ALL illegal traffic coming in to include drugs along that area. At least via land travel. Requiring a certified birth certificate to obtain a social security number would stop the phoney SSN scam. Applying the same seizure laws as used in drug enforcement would make employers think about 14 times before hiring anyone they are not sure of. Obtaining a court ruling that children born by illegal immigrants are not entitled to U.S. citizenship would clear up quite a bit of issues as well. Just for openers. ;o) This should aught to develop into an "interesting thread" ;o) LOL!!!! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-02-06          76186

Considering the link to CBC News below I guess not everybody shares the dominant view here. ....


Link:   Illegal worker amnesty

 
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kwschumm
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2004-02-06          76191

GWB's proposed "temporary worker program" is simply dumb. If an illegal alien enrolls in the program he or she will face being tossed out of the country in three years if they don't renew or the political winds change. If they don't enroll they won't be tossed out. What kind of an incentive is that? ....

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loghouse95
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-06          76205

If any of you guys want to run for public office you definitly have my vote and I bet a lot more people feel the same way.....Richard you might just be the right man for the job lol ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-06          76207

Yeah, plenty of people are fed up. Unfortunately most have been so beaten over the head by the media and political correctness they will never publicly voice such opinions. The end result is that the loud, obnoxious far left rules the day. When everyone hears the same message over and over, they start to shy even further away from their own ideals. It's not that the extremists ARE the MAJORITY it's just that they making it appear that way. It's gone so far it may be irreversible.It's like the frog in the pot of water. If the waters too to to he jumps out, but if you turn the heat up slow he just stays there and slowly boils. In the same way, peope are accepting things as "normal" that they would have cringed at a few years ago. The didn't even realize that thye lost their values, morals and abiltiy to reason. It happeed slowly, incrementally but it surely happened.

I have nad many letters published in the local papers and people call my house and email me in agreement.....but see if they will chip in with their own letter with THEIR name and town at the bottom. No way, the end result is the more vocal wackos write in at a 2 to 1 clip and appear to be the majority.

Special interests like the pro illegals crowd and other fringe groups are vocal, organized and determined and their winning.

School systems, the courts, the news media, the entertainment industry and even some religous organizations are all WAY out of sink with the average Americans values, yet they control much of what we see and do. They don't have to control a majority in D.C. or the Presidency, they control key instituitions and it's like a snowball rolling downhill. You just know it's going to get faster and bigger all the time.

Sometimes when I watch TV and people discuss politics or society I feel like that lady on the Twilight Zone (maybe the Outter Limits?) The one where the Dr. removes the womens facial bandages and everyone in the room recoils in horror because she is hideous. Then you see her and she is a striking blond but ALL the other people who thought SHE was ugly have pig faces. :) :)

Oh dang, now I'm depressed ;( ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-07          76210

But Scott, I know you must feel a little bit better now. ;o) I feel your frustration, agree with your outrage, and applaud your expression!!!! The virtual beer keg is tapped and beers all round!!!!!! ;o) Amen brother!!!!! ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-07          76211

Thanks,

Yeah if I didn't laugh about the current state of affairs I'd cry. They say things go in cycles, I hope THEY are right!

Hey Chief, I thought I was the only fool staring at the computer until the wee hours...thanks for the company :)

Good night ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-07          76212

LawGuy..I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. I also think I'm in the twilight zone. Has this great country lost its collective mind??

Your comments about the wennie politicians groveling for the Latino votes are right on. But, think about it, if EVERYONE VOTED, they would be groveling for OUR VOTES!!!!! I think I emphasized that point on another thread.

So, the first thing is to start a crusade to get out the votes..EVERYONE..(except democrats), just joking, sorta. Yeah, I'm a conservative and think liberalism is a mental disorder or plain stupidity. Hey, I'm not into political correctness, which is a major threat to the 1st amendment. So..if someone doesn't like my opinion..have a nice day :-)

I found the public outcry about the Super Bowl halftime to be interesting. It showed that alot, and probably a majority, still have higher standards regarding social conduct. Those grassroots need to re-kindled into social activism for change. Border security is on the top of the list.

The people could still rule.

P.S. Lawman, I was a traffic guy for 12 years and now do accident reconstruction as a consultant. The reason I got into traffic was that I was about to be drafted into our metro drug unit by reverse seniority so took a traffic slot that no one wanted. I think I'd would have had to kill someone sooner or later (by choice) had I done the drug gig. And now I have a nice business thanks to my traffic training. ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-07          76261

It is hard to remember that THEY are the crazy ones with the illusion that's been created. If you turn on the tube or read the newspapers you'd swear they are the voice of America.


It is not even just the failure to vote. Take a look at local issues. Everyone gripes about the issues but when they need to attend a meeting and voice that opinion they're a NO SHOW. They continue to complain when that particular law or ordinance is passed. I always ask them, "did you go to the public hearing" ? The answer is always the same...well, I, em ,well,err, I was busy.

Usually they were real busy...... watching American Idol ;)


P.S.
Yes, while my time was enjoyable my "skills" aren't as transferable into the private sector. Not much call to break down someone's door and lead a bunch of armed men throughout the house. I'll keep my fingers crossed though :) :)

So far though I have headed in other directions career wise.

I am sure accident investigation is always needed by insurance companies, lawyers etc. I know someone who wanted to get into the computerized crime and accident recreation business. I am pretty good wih the animation software but this person who talked of us partnering would have been the technical brains of the opertion. I would have helped dealing with the lawyers and the courtroom as this wasn't his strong suit. It could have have been good, the guy's other hobby was physics. Unfortunately like many computer/mahtematics gurus I've met, he was a little flakey so it never panned out. I was thinking at the time that somene who knows Flash/Shockwave or some other animation program with previous accident inv. experience could probably make a mint doing it on their own. These guys charge lawyers a ton, as you no doubt already know :) ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-07          76271

Unfortunately, a few "prostitutes" in the reconstruction business have used computer simulation software to fit their needs rather than accurately portray reality. As a result, that science is tainted before you start.

About the only computer aids that I use are Excel with all of my formulae plugged in for faster calculations and printouts and EDCRASH, which calculates Delta-V's (velocity change) based on crush and momentum. Sometimes I just don't have much to go on and have to fall back on experience..but it's a level playing field.

You're right about public apathy. Maybe what it will take is coming to the brink of disaster to wake folks up. I hope that historian who did a study on democracies is wrong. He found the average lifespan for democracies historically was 200 years. The stages each went through mirror the American experience.

Gotta go blow snow. Another 8" with more on the way. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-07          76272

Richard..you haven't the time for posting, you have a hole to finish. 30' deep with 12' of concrete over the top. Don't forget the air filtering system. I want pictures of it when you finish. ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-07          76279

I really wasn't referring to you specifically but I will explain my previous statement.

It is common to listen to people complain about something like a local town school budget for example. It is annoying to listen to someone complain about the budget and when you ask them if they went to one of the public hearings on the budget the say no. It is infuriating after all the complaining and moaning, you ask them if they voted against the budget and they say no, they didn't vote.

If they didn't think it was important enough to participate, then can they please be consistent. It is now not important enough for them to waste my time with complaints after the fact. My standard answer is "then don't complain"

I only use the above example because it is very obviuos when it is on a local level and a few votes can change things. Now on a national scale, NY being a lost cause my presidential vote IS usually a waste of time. It only serves as moral support and there may be other elections/issues on the ballot. :)

I really don't care who doesn't vote. My gripe is that people have an ability to exert some control over the outcome of their situation, but do nothing and then complain. The failure to take action tells me they are willing to accept whatever happens, so don't complain after the fact.

If I called the dealer and told him "I'm coming over with $15,000 give me whatever tractor you like", would you want to listen to me complain about the crappy tractor I got? Now, if I researched, reviewed then test drove the tractor and still got a lemon, wouldn't it be different. I think in the second scenario you would be more willling to listen to my complaints and even sympathize ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-07          76301

Boy, you are a real character!

I think all we have to do is stop giving away the joint, have some real border protection, make illegal entry a crime (with punishment), punish those who hire illegals.

They make it sound like it is impossible to get rid of many of the illegals. How many illegals are pulled over or stopped on the street for minor offense. A part of the normal "check" should be for status in this country. All you have to do is add another field in all of our state motor vehicle records for citizenship or date your visa expires. No status = no ticket, you just go to the local INS office and yer gone!

If you committ a serious offense you go to jail and then get escorted to the border with a promise of draconian punishement if you EVER return.

With these work and student visas, if we can't get rid of them at least make these folks check in once in awhile so we know where and what they're doing. If they don't check in, bang...issue a warrant.

This is all a pipe dream however, our gutless politicians don't care about us because we vote independently, where the special intert vote as a block. W eget split 50-50 for both major parties while both of these parties give away the house hoping they will gain more of this flood of potential.....voters (damn it even hurts to say that)! ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-07          76310

Heard someone bring up a funny point a few weeks ago. They were addressing the "point" that the pro illegal immigration crowd (hey, that's what they are really) keeps repeating regarding no Americans being willing to do these job. The person responded that during the years where this country actually had negative immigration numbers as compared to emmigration. Guess what, THOSE JOBS STILL GOT DONE. We had food, neat lawns, people cleared tables in restaurants, dishes got washed,etc. The media would have us believe we will be helpless if it weren't for illegal workers.

You're right some prices will rise but the overall cost will be MORE than offset by the reduced burden on our schols, hospitals, jails, social programs, etc, etc.

As far as defense of this country, the media can beat me over the head with "collateral damage" figures all they want it won't change my opinion one way or the other. It's either worth doing or it's not. While I don't want to see innocent foreigners killed or injurd it isn't my biggest concern these days.

The other thing that is troubling is the reporting of U.S casualties. It is terrible each and everytime we lose a soldier but they treat it like " hey, what did we do wrong, why did we lose someone" This was DURING the major fighting. It is like they have no idea of the reality of what a war consists of. Can anyone imagine if they reported caualties live in real time during WWI, WWII or Vietnam. They would need a ticker tape running underneath the screen. The way they report now it's like they are keeping score at a freakin game. If you listened to these reporters and had no previous knowledge you would think the Iraqis kicked our tails into the sea.

They give many stats on how many were killed or injured and where it happened, but very few stories of heroic deeds or bravery. They reporting is designed to bang the American public over the head with casualty numbers while neglecting the entire point of the heroic sacrifices made. Hmmmm, sounds familar???

On a lighter note my friend was very nervous that his son joined the Army when the Iraqi conflict was in full swing. Naturally he's very nervous that his son who just graduated high school is going to Iraq. They have no connections so he's was just hoping for the best. His son got, drumroll please...Hawai as his station!

My friend was naturally real happy, I haven't seen his son since he found out so I don't know if he was relieved or disapointed. I only met the son once, but when I spoke with him and was very impressed. Most of his friends are worrying about what Play Station 2 game to buy next and he joined knowing that in all probability he would go to Iraq. That certainly has to say something about ones character. People today are much more concerned with other things than going to fight . This ISN'T the generation that fought our other wars. Half of these kids would probably wet their beds after 2 days away from their video games, cell phones, MP3 players and Palm Pilots :) :) That's why I find it maybe even more impressive when I see our current forces, they are doing something that the vast majority of their peers can't or won't do. It's a far cry from WWII when guys forged their birth certificates TO GO.

Anyway when we spoke he was just completed training at the Proving Grounds as a diesel mechanic so I was teasing him that in a few years when my warranty is up I'll have an honest mechanic to boot! ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-02-08          76311

Great thread guys. I'm very glad I registered premium... It's like I found people who use their brain, and have tractors to boot.

One thing to remember - Our country is not a democracy, but a represenative republic. When you hear politicians wanting to get rid of the electoral college (you'l see this among the greens, "progressives", socialist and democrats), it's because it is the surest way to kill the country and steer it through true inaction. The electoral college at least helps balance stuff. I really think that our founding fathers did get it pretty much right, so hopefully we last longer than the other similar governments in the past.

One distinct thing that I think is great about America, but we are losing, is that everyone in American used to be American, and used to believe in opportinuty, hard work, and a shot to make something of themselves.

Now everyone thinks they need to keep all their previous culture, keep their old language, steal what they don't have so things are fair, or more nominally, sue because they are at a disadvantage, or had a spin of bad luck. Forget teaching your kids English, getting jobs, working hard, starting your own business... Nobody has a work ethic any more, and everyone is waiting for their next entitlement. The recent perscription drug bill is a perfect example.

Hope I don't inflame anyone, we have a great forum here. I do believe that capitalism is the way to keep opportinuty and initiative alive... Even as my own job (software) goes overseas, I'd hate to see tariffs, unions, or other protection, since it would just mean that my countrymen would pay $1000 for a copy of software when the rest of the world pays $100. It would put our country further behind, and make them unable to compete.

I've worked and trained folks in India, and I don't think we have much to worry about. There is a spark here, that is hard to replicate. Nothing like having a competitor and free market to keep people on their toes, and no other markets are anywhere near as free as ours.

And on our forces - God bless. They are amazing, and make me proud. I pray daily for them (and I don't generally pray much) but they have the guts and conviction that has been absent in this country for many years. For those of you in the service, ever, and those of you with family in the service, now or ever, thank you.



Nite, and God bless.

....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-08          76313

Nice post.

Your right we don't need tariffs. We can maintain our lead by out working and out hustling these other countries just as we always have. What we need is the government to stop spoon feeding the public and get out of the way.

"The electoral college at least helps balance stuff. I really think that our founding fathers did get it pretty much right, so hopefully we last longer than the other similar governments in the past."

I live in the NY and I'd like to see a bonus given to the states with more land mass. :) :) The worst thing that has happened is a few heavily populated states are dictating who runs things. The East coast and West coast are screwing things up for the folks who live in between. The country become more polarized every minute. NY, PA, FL, CA, you win those states and the deal is done. You can throw in an IL, MI or another heavily populated state and it gets even worse. The other 40 something states covering 90% of the country are at the mercy of the looney states.....mine included. It's no coincidence that these "wacko states" are also the ones with more illegal invaders than most.


These are not immigrants coming to assimilate, they are on an extended business trip where they will drink from the free mini-bar that is our public assistance system. Then they will pack up their bags and leave! Their is almost no "melting pot", it's small enclaves and bilingual education. I am so sick of seeing Spanish signs, ATM machines, government documents, etc. I went to school with many Chinese and Korean children they spoke zero English and got straight A's within months. No crutches needed. If these politicians really cared they would scrap all this bilingual garbage for what it is, AN OBSTACLE for these immigrants to ever achieve. Instead they placate the masses by making it easy to get by day to day with only Spanish. It's a mind numbing existence where they have no hope of achieving if they DONT SPEAK THE LANGUAGE.

They way to become part of a culture or to learn something quickly is to be immersed in it. That's not happening.

There is hope, I may get my wife to agree on moving to Montana ;)


....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-08          76317

Welcome Huckmeat..good post.
LawGuy..Montana is nice, but, California is moving there wholesale and land prices are going out of sight. Ted Turner bought up a big chunk of the Bitteroot area.

I heard the words "budget deficiet" so many times during the tax cut debates that I wanted to throw up. And the morons settled on $350b over 10yrs. THEN, the prescription drug plan came up and I NEVER heard those words. I think THAT program is over $500b over 10yrs and climbing. But that's what money is for..buying votes. (Richard is not for sale)(it's not deep enough)

Our educational system is a joke. Feeding money into it is like good money after bad...thanks, NEA. Vouchers would bring some much needed competition to education. Then, maybe, all students would receive an education that brought students into our cultural values while teaching them to read, write and add & subtract.

We're on a slippery slope. Our military is the best, but I think it's been drawn down dangerously. I'm not sure that an all volunteer force is in our best interests, especially when we are so heavily committed around the world. We're about 3-4 heavy divisions short causing roational problems that will make recruiting much more difficult. Not to mention dealing with N. Korea..if that time comes. Catching up will be very hard to do.

Borders?? WHAT borders? It will take a serious dose of vigilantyism along the borders to wake Washington up. And that appears to be on the upsurge. (wake up Richard)

When law & order break down and survival is at stake the people WILL step in. Unfortunately, that's not the best way to restore order.

In the 1880's in Virginia City, Montana, Sheriff Plummer & his road agents ran things. The people had enough and lynched them all..along with 100 or so other folks over a year or so. Unfortunately, most of the later lynchings were of innocent people. That's the problem with vigilantes. BUT..law & order returned.

So..what do we do? Get involved. Simple. No..not simple, but we are at a crossroads as a nation as I see it. God help us if we do it wrong.

I need to stop. There's so many issues coming up that need to be discussed that I can't keep up with them. This thread will probably take on a life of its own.

Meanwhile, I got some quality seat time in today blowing more snow. Love my tractor :-))







....

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lamarbur
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2004-02-08          76340

Been reading this thread with interest and thought I would respond by placing, probably tractor points longest ever reply. It is more or less a bio, with many things thrown in.. Military, run for office, close the borders, the illegals are taking jobs, entitlements are out of hand, and so on. Some will read this as I am possibly whining.. I am not. I am stating how one person can and has done almost all of the above, (military, run for office, etc)..

I did 2 tours with SOG group out of Kontum SVN or the total of 1200 plus flight hours as a Huey crew chief. Couldn't pass the eye exam and couldn't see far enough in the future to sign up as warrant and 5 year hitch, which was the way it was. Flew daily right up to Dec 17th of 71, where I took a 51 caliber and 2 AK hollow points through the leg. Have spent just over 65 months in VA hospitals the last 30 or so years trying to hang onto the leg. Entitlement, Yes, 70%, and I worked for it, the hard way. I don't see my particular instance as a give away.

I hear more times than not, I or other vets shouldn't be allowed this entitlement because we knew what we were going into.. We also, back then, had contracts of which when one was hurt, that portion was to be covered by the federal gvt. It is much harder to fight the gvt system for an entitlement than it is to go to war. When I was finally up and walking, there were no jobs, long gas lines and things were not good, left Army and it's hospital system March of 74. Answered an add one day, become an owner-operator of tractor trailers and your own boss. I did that, hauling military trade shows and gvt computer systems for a North American van lines agent that did only electronics. Bought first truck in May of 74 and several bigger, newer, and classier looking rigs later, left March of 91.

Legs were really bad and I was in and out of VA hosptitals next 3 years. No job, 30 % disability at the time, and I decided to run for local office. Been elected to highest position in town, that of town selectman, constable, cemetery, deputy fire chief, highway dep't, economic developement, and many ad-hoc committee's.. Sometimes holding 3 different positions at once.

All this taught me was to watch out for unions. They ask and receive much more than is available or is reasonable for the given area. It's nice to help yourself, but not go so far as to break the tax payers back and particularly the small business which get hurt the most. I have found, and I am talking Massachusetts only,, liberals have taken it too far. Big business? No such thing left. Service industries only. An employer is forced to pay extreme workers comp, un-employment insurance, part of Mass care costs, which was known as welfare health..

We don't want to hurt peoples feelings and have to be politically correct, don't we? With all these costs to a business, which isn't paid for by the employee, in fact most employees REFUSE to believe it happens,, they are forced to find alternate means. Big business has gone foreign.. Low labor per hour costs, hidden costs are almost non existent, no union systems that push for more than is reasonable, and the lists can go on and on, local city taxes, state, fed, water-sewage, health, electric, heat, you get the idea.

Somehow, in the last 20 years, kids and young grown ups feel they should start out at top dollar and not work very hard physically. I'm not sure how this started but am sure of todays attitudes towards honest work. Now, we are mad because illegals, particularly Mexicans sneak over and do these meanial jobs for much less. In the meantime and our ultra liberal attitude, the illegals get pregnant, give birth for free at some local hospital, and that child is pretty much guaranteed free health and whatever else the kids parents can obtain.

We're in a situation, where do the parents belong? Are they now half Mexican and half US citizens. All this is doing is creating a bigger and bigger mess. Over the years we pushed for and obtained for the most part, more than probably should have happened. The ultra liberals who feel free health, free colloege and whatever, it is a nice thought. However, it is not reality. Somewhere, somehow, someone has to pay for all this. Family values went down the tubes in the early 70's. Kids have more rights than any parent ever will, at least in todays' standards.

Our overall allowance to being liberal and free, has been costing us these losses, slow but sure. It is not 100% of the problem, I see it as a large percentage of STARTING this downward trend that's been going on for some 20 years now.. We have to stop asking for more than can be produced, whether it's money, legal rights, law suits payoffs, benefits, and? Somewhere we have to, as a NATION, get back some values, think out the problems short and long term, then fix them.. I come off my high horse now and have said my piece. I could go on quite a bit more, but, am afraid I lready said too much.. Have a great tractor day.. ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-08          76347

Yes, I have seen the Montana prices and they are high compared to what they were. On the upside I would be selling a decent size( for here) property in a skyrocketing market so it should still be in my favor. Now having a neighbor from CA shuffling from wine tastings to Sierras club meetings in his Range Rover mght be too much to take :) I'll need plenty of land for a buffer!

Being born in America should NOT make you automatically a citizen. If your parents crossed the border right after Mom stared having labor pains just so the Border Patrol could take you to the hospital, that IS NOT what citizenship by birth was meant to be. We have hospitals marketing to wealthy families in Mexico, Korea, the Phillipines, etc to come in and stay in a hospital suite. The baby gets citizenship then returns home with future opportunity to return legally as an adult.

The all volunteer military is a complex issue. The quality of soldiers seems to be high but I guess the numbers are a problem. On the other hand have you looked at typical teenager (not all but MOST) these days. 12-18 hours of TV/video games, total lack of exercise, pampering at home, spoon feeding at school, they consider having to carry a bulky lasy year's model cell phone to be neglect...it's not pretty. You can draft those folks but you can't erase 18 years of living a life that prepares them for nothing.

I play ball at a local club. There simply aren't too many young people partcipating in sports. You have the same kids at the basketball, soccer, football, gymnastics, etc. The other 70-75% is home playing Playstation. I have a 13 year old son and I look at his peers, I have never heard such whining, excuse making, complaining in my life. I remember when me and my friends were that age and you insisted you could do anything. If a father said "son you can't lift that, I'll do it", you knew the kid was going to do it even if it KILLED them. Now all I hear is "oh, how much does that weigh, I can't move that, it's heavy". I also remember playing sports with the fathers at that time when the teeangers began to eclipse the fathers in athletic ability. I look at the average kids and unless you're sick or injured, you better be OLD if these guys are more athletic than you.

I don't mean to be totally negative. I will say that these kids are very bright in many ways, and that computers have given them access to vast areas of knowledge. They are also very mature in many ways, I just don't know if this is who you want to draft. At least with a volunteer force your getting the % that is more suited to what they might have to do. I don't know if a short ammount of training can undo a lifetime, times are very different than when we last draftd soldiers.

lamarbur

Man that is quite history you have there. Thank you for your service.

Sounds like you need a good co-author or screenwriter. We need a good conservative actor to play you...that could be tough, the three of them might be busy :)

I can't add much to what you said, but I agree. It is so funny to listen to the "leftie" whiners. Nice, house, 2 SUV's in the yard, kids with everything and America sucks??
What?

If we keep giving it away, over regulating everything, allowing anyone in, poisoning kids minds in school, they maybe right someday soon. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-08          76351

Lamarbur..good post..sez it all & I totally agree. I didn't make Vietnam but served my obligation from '67-'73 doing dis-honorable (according to those patriotic libs) National Guard service.

One way all of these entitlements are being paid for is by stealing from the military establishment. Reducing benefits for soldiers & sailors and cutting weapons, reducing force levels..etc.

Veterans play hell getting their promised and well deserved benefits when illegals and other un-entitled get them on a no-hassel basis. Duh??

Then there's civil rights. Fine..to a point..and that point is when it becomes reverse discrimination. Now comes the gay rights issue. They are becoming "protected class" and will sweep the nation sucking up more entitlements with the gay marriage issue. That will/is followed closely by polygamist's rights to 40 wives. Why stop there? Incest will surely follow. It's all gone from the civil rights movement of the '60's to total perversion.

The silent (unfortunately) majority doesn't agree with this but with liberal judges legislating from the bench to circumvent our laws, with the abundant assistance from the ACLU, this is the expected/predictable outcome.

The final stage of a democracy is a military takeover and the subsequent abandonment of any constitution (historically speaking). I'd say we're about there. Then we'll all be truly equal..nobody will have anything..except for those in power (Soviet style equality). Who said that humans are the most intelligent species on the planet?
....

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lamarbur
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-08          76354

Believe it or not, I cut out 75% of what I originally intended to say. My point being, I did the service thing, I did the civic duty thing, I did the self employment thing finishing 1,300,000 logged miles, tried my hand at a paint shop, owned a gas station trying that out,, had employees and had to match their soc sec and other benefits that most aren't aware of, fought many a fight with schools system and their higher than thou unions, answered to 1100 tax payers and their concerns.. I am not an ultra conservative, I am one of six republicans in this town verses 1000 and more democrats. All of it took it's toll and am warn out from fighting it. In the aggregate sense, and that is what it will take, the whole, will have to stand up and say, enough is enough. Pockets of people here and there, aren't enough to get it done. In all of this I see a third party waiting in the wings. Whenever that third party becomes active, I truly believe it will snow ball and changes will be made. It may come down to near anarchy and, or civil war. Hope not, we have enough fighting going on already. We have 4 basic groups of people that take turns running things. The "workers", "warriors", "acquisitors", and "academics". The workers do just that and work, not really worrying who runs what. The last 20 years we have had the acquisitors and academics or a combination of each running the country and/or large corporations.. The warriors are getting tired of all sides. I think the next round, and it may not happen in my life time, but will sooner or later,, the next round, all will be run by warrios while the acquistors and academics regroup for another run at things. This is all I will say on this topic.. Have a great day all. ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-02-08          76361

By basically legalizing the illegal aliens, GWB can brag and say we have cut illegal aliens entering the US by 75% (but in fact you now consider them legal!!!). One of my biggest gripes about foreigners in this country is that they need to learn to speak the language (ENGLISH)!!!! I work in Washington DC and can walk a couple of city blocks and see several people in conversations jibber jabbering in some other language. Try to go into a restaurant in DC and see if you can understand anything the people who are serving you are saying. I'm finished my little rant!!! Sorry it's not as good as your rants Richard, but I'm learning!!!! Just kidding! ....

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lamarbur
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2004-02-08          76364

Our U.S. congress, both, senate and house of reps have never declared an official language. This, is another thing that should happen, declare English as our official language.. I agree whole heartedly with Kubotag and have spent hundreds of hours in various gvt bldgs delivering computer systems. It's awful to ask a question and get hands up in the air and some foreign language being spoken. ....

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wbowhunt
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2004-02-08          76366

While taking some college classes, one of the students did a lecture on how the US government mandated that each state be required to provide information in a foreign lanuage based on the foreign population in the area. Meaning that if the region is so many % foreign every store, hospital and resturant must provide any service they provide in english in that foreign language. Forms, Menu's etc etc. Many folks are not aware of this and many states have not been able to keep up. I got furious in class and of course my mouth engaged before my brain and bluttered out how rediclous this was and was told it was only fair. Then my Brain engaged and I asked, why is it fair to provide such service to foreigners living here ( many of whom are here illegally . This also include schools, One of the women I work with who's daughter is in fourth grade talked about how one of her classmates gets all the text books in spanish ( At the TxPayers Expense) as she cannot read english. ( Gee Wouldn't now be a good time to learn)
Yet to the Veterans who have served and given so much to this country does our government do so little for. Example how many VA Medical centers are there in each state? I know many Vets that have to travel 4-6 hours one way to receive their so called benefits for giving to their country. If we can do this to our Vets, Then why don't we just create One hosipital in each state to accommidate what ever the predominate foreign culture is and let them travel there if they don't want to learn to read an write in english.
My entire family came here from Germany in the mid 60's. My Mother never made it past the 5th grade due to WWII, and yet they had to learn the launguage and to read and write and everything else that came with being a US Citizen. I feel extremely lucky to have been born and raised in this great country and have served in the military for the past 18 years, but as we continue to treat everyone with kid gloves and the politicians continue to destory what we have spent so long and given so many lives to defend I am truly scared for my son and the future of our country.
Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the American Public to stop voting based on Party and stop saying Well everyone else is going to vote either Republican or Democrate, So I will just vote for the one I like better and start voting based on the canidate and the issues at hand.
I can hardly watch the news and the debates anymore. They don't discuss the issue's or what is best for our country, They just bash the other guy.
OK I will get off my High Horse and SHut-up Now.
Thank you for listen ....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-08          76377

To just get people to vote is one thing..getting them to THINK is another thing. You sure can't listen to the garbage the candidates spew forth to decide which one to vote for, you gotta scrutinize their records. Look at the hero, Kerry, as an example. He's been on the wrong side of nearly every issue in his career. And he vents about taking the country back? To what?? 8 more years of Clintonism??

These political "debates" we've been suffering through belong on "Saturday Night Live". What a bunch of sanctimonious, self serving shameless power mongers. You know, maybe living under a benevolent dictator would be an improvement. Key word: benevolent. At least there wouldn't be this constant "debating"..i.e: bickering.

And then let the abused military establishment go out and settle some scores with the patriotic libs. That does have a nice ring to it.

Hasta Lavista muchachos ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-08          76397

"Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the American Public to stop voting based on Party and stop saying Well everyone else is going to vote either Republican or Democrate, So I will just vote for the one I like better and start voting based on the canidate and the issues at hand."

Diddo.

I'll go one further how about not having politicians who air the dirty laundry in public while we have soldiers fighting and dying on a daily purpose. How do you look in the mirror after you've spewed some BS, JUST to dirty up the other party. The fight is on, the time for debate is over. As hard as this may be to believe I was no big Clinton supporter :)... but I wouldn't want to see Republicans ripping him at every turn if he was in office now. With these politicians it's all about politics, the public be damned. Who cares if their words enbolden our enemies and cause casualties.
Present a unified front, win the fight, kill the terrorists and then if we are ever finished, we can look back and play Monday morning quarterback. If the want to argue there's plenty to criticize. Let them talk about the econonmy. health care, immigration, etc, etc, etc.

I equate the mixed messages our leaders are sending to Americas enemies to having a fellow police officer question what we are doing while in the midst of an angry crowd. Nothing gets the other side going faster than the appearance of weakness or lack of desire to fight. These politicians know that their words are just as useful to this countries enemies as live ammunition. They don't care as long as the get media attention and a few votes.
....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-09          76400

Mark,

Fortunantely for me, I worked in units with good people. Later as a supervisor I had even better people.


I may be naive but I just think that there are certain things that should be ABOVE political motivation. If these fellas actually believed half the stuff they say it would still be bad. However, I find it too be much worse when you know they would all change their opinions in a heartbeat if the shoe was on the other foot. The Democrats are the worst offenders when it comes to hammering the other party when the take military action. they don't utter a word when their boy is in office. That doesn't mean that there aren't many knuckleheaded Republicans as well.

Man this thread has taken off.. I think I'll save the latest smack at gun-owners in NY post for tomorrow. My fingers are tired from typing :) ....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-09          76402

Yep, Lawman, the politicians, the vast majority being Dems, don't give one hoot about anything other than their own re-election and powerbase. And they have changed their tune since 1998..180 degrees. Everyone assumed there were WMD's in Iraq then and supported Clinton's attack. Going back further, when Clinton was cerified, on the record, in front of the world, to be a sociopathic liar, he still got the unwavering support from the patriotic Dems. How about draft dodging..not a problem. Womanizing..jeez, give the guy a break. He can still be a great leader, even while having flaws in his character. Selling secrets to the Chinese? Travelgate? Whitewater? No big deal.

Contrast all of that with what's going on now with Bush. THAT's really changing their tune!

What the patriotic Libs are doing by Bush bashing and bad mouthing the war is simply giving aide and comfort to the enemy. That's treason, plain & simple.

You can't build a house without a sound foundation. You can't lead without a strong & decent character. Clinton proved that in spades.

I remember the House banking scandel very well. And what stands out in that mess was that 9 out of 10 guilty participants were Dems. What's that say about the basic moral fabric of a party as a whole? Sez alot.

And, Lawman, guns are evil. 73,231 kids under 4 are accidentally shot in New York alone every year...and most of them were killed by assault rifles. Also, 35,647 people die of secondary smoke every year. Man..isn't science wonderful that they can separate those who just croak from all those other pollutants from the secondary smoke victims?? I'm awestruck! And how about this well documented fact..2 million slaves were thrown overboard whilst being shipped from Afica to America. So many in fact that the sharks are still swimming the route even today. I'm not being facetious. If the patriotic libs can blow stats outta their collective b..ts then so can I.

Man..this is wearing me out.

Yes, Richard, this is fun. Keep digging. I gotta go clean my guns before going to bed. Nite. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-02-09          76403

Mark, before I retire, could you send me a copy of "Mark's codes". 38-A sounded good. And I bet you don't know what dbfeoo stands for. One of Earl Chamberlain's descriptive codes. ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-09          76428

"Yes, Richard, this is fun. Keep digging. I gotta go clean my guns before going to bed."

The newest gun law is in the Governor's proposed budget. He thinks he can squeeze another couple of million out of the public by raising registration fees. They will make it $100 fee to the state and another $5-10 to the county. All handguns will have to be re-registerd every five years. They have tried to lump in a manadatory review of all gun owners as part of this policy so it seems like they are doing something to protect the public. Not only won't it protect the public it will spend MORE than they take in in FEES! If you've gotten in trouble and your guns are going to be lifted you just WON'T show to re-register, DUH! There is a system in place already where L.E. get notified if a gun owner gets convicting of a
serious crime, has severe mental illness, expired gun licenses or dies. I remember going out to get these guns once in awhile. Most of the times the people had a bunch of guns in the attic or basement from their deceased, jailed or estranged relative ath they really din't know about or were interested in. We would tell them the license was expired and they needed to look into it. They would either bring the guns down to the station, arrange to sell them to gun shops or get a license(or renew) and keep them. Sometimes they even sold them to cops who were gun buffs. (at better prices than gun dealers were offering)

If the system doesn't work, fix it' Let's not add another layer of rules, fees and bureacracy. After all if the folks who've lost their license don't show (and they won't) the old system is going to have to get the guns anyway.

As a former LEO I don't have to pay any fees, BUT I will still have to go down and go through the BS next year and every five years after that.

As I covered in another post when I first retired that same computer system returned a record of someone with my name being in a MENTAL HOSPITAL for 8 years during my Junior H.S and H.S. days! Now I am not saying I wasn't crazy then... but come on :) :) Yeah right, I went right from the looney bin to the police academy??? You should have seen the fun I had straightening that out! When I finally got some answers it got even better, they said the person wth my name had anorexia. WHAT, nobody gets 8 years of instituitional treatment for that, and guys really almost never have anorexia. Bottom line it was a total computer screw up and they couldn't find the original paper back up that was SUPPOSED to exist.

You know what is going to happen next time I go re-register, yep that's right. Luckily I kept a letter some hospital director sent me stating he had no freakin' idea what the state was talking about and thta thye never heard of me.

Anyway if it goes through all of us handgun owners will have to go do our first registration by early next year, fun, fun, fun. I bring up my story for a reason; I am sure won't be the only one who gets put through a ringer unnecessarily.
....

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Chief
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2004-02-09          76438

The ridiculous gun laws are one reason I refuse to live in New York. Hopefully those extremist totalitarian gun laws will be challenged in the courts and over turned someday. Not holding my breath waiting for it though. ;o) ....

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F350Lawman
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2004-02-09          76450

Chief, I have carried a gun everday for many years and still do. I still really don't consider myself to be the "gun enthusiast" the media alwasy refers to( whatever that means). I'm not a hobby shooter or hunter, I feel more like a carpenter with a hammer :) I never really think about it, I just consider it par for the course.

You should see the look you get from the VAST majority of NYers when the subject comes up and they find out you carry a gun. It usually goes something like this- WHY??? or "but you're retired WHY would your carry a gun", "DO you think that's safe?", "what are you going to do". Most people have no idea but those few times it comes up the reactions are priceless.

I went to the Dr. twice over the space of 2 years and the Physicians assistant BOTH times gave me twenty questions when I she needed to listen to my chest and I informed her I was a retired cop and had a firearm. The second time I just said "I told you this last time, did you forget" If it's SO shocking to see aholsterd gun, would't she remember me? Do people think bad guys go to the Doctors with pancake holsterd guns attached to their belt loops. I have been going for years, my kids have been there, they have all my info. and insurance, I'm a retired cop and now because I STILL have a licensed gun I'm Charles Manson???

Telling these people you have leprosy and giving them a nice wet kiss on the cheek would get nicer reactions :) :)

Of course I couldn't care less what they think. I don't wish bad things upon them, but a few car jackings or muggings might be poetic justice. ....

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wbowhunt
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2004-02-09          76451

You think NY Laws are Bad, Stop in NJ. When I was stationed in Mass I did Law enforcement on the seas. Mostly Boarding vessels in search of illegal substances.. I was young and looked even younger ( like I was 14, I was Told ) as I boarded a vessel with a 45 on my hip. I was qual'ed to carry a 45 / M-16 and a Shotgun for law enforcement purposes. When I went home to NJ to visit family and freinds I stopped at K-mart to purchase some BB's. I was denied as I did not have a Firearms ID Card. Later I went to the Local Police office to apply. Weeks later after a complete background investigation and finger printing I was give an ID, But only for Rifle and of Course BB's. I had no intention of going through the hoops to try and get a pistol permit in a state I didn't spend much time in anymore.
Someday ( I can only hope )the public and politicains will come to the reality that guns do not hurt or kill people. People do. Hold those acocuntable for their actions and leave us with common sense alone. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-02-09          76453

Michigan passed a law several years ago allowing CCW permits (carry & concealed weapon permits)after taking a class and passing a background check. Most people after finding out that I carry, asked me "why". I always say "why not". If the law allows me to drive 70mph, I do. If they allow me to carry a pistol, I do.

Wouldn't you feel bad, if you had the opportunity to carry and didn't. What if something happen that could have been prevented, particularly to a family member.

If you don't like the laws in NY, sell your property and move to Michigan and bring your guns.

I switch around with my pistols to keep familiar with all of them. I'm partial to my nickel plated S&W model 27- 357Mag. with 8 3/8" barrel (It is kinda bulky for concealed carry but fits nice in my briefcase) but I usually carry my Sig model 229 -S&W.40 with built in Lasermax sight.

I'm not a threat to anyone except bad people.

I think all of us are fed up with the system. Neither political party is going to solve our problems since there are to many do gooders out that don't have a clue on what is really going on. It is a sorry world that we live in and is going to be much worse. The world is being run by evil people. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-02-09          76454

In no other country is power spread throughout the populace as it is in the US. We have the collective power to vote representatives in as well as out of government to fit our needs. We also have significant personal power in that we are the most well armed populace in the world. Each armed person has the ultimate power to take another's life. I and everyone I know who owns a gun takes this potential power very seriously. But why is an armed populace necessary? It is not that we need an armed citizenry to fight a potential corrupt government. It is the fact that this power is spread throughout the people that has kept our government from evolving into corruption in the first place. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-02-09          76457

The real deterrent is not shooting the gun but the fact of having it. That has kept us a free society. Free from invasion from other countries and bad politians. The bad guys have the guns, knives, etc. and the honest people get the license. I agree that many with a CCW are not up to the task but nobody in Michigan that has a CCW has killed or hurt anybody that I'm aware of. It would have been posted everywhere for sure if it had. It takes composure to no use it. It has unquestionably deterred crime. There are allot of fruitcakes driving cars, trucks and whatever that do kill and injure people.

In my past post I mentioned that New Yorkers should move to Michigan. Please don't bring Hillary! ....

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wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2004-02-09          76458

Speaking of Loony's driving cars. How many people are killed every day by a car? Shouldn't we be outlawing the right to drive as it kills more people everyday then guns?
Oh wait they are starting look at outlawing SUV's aren't they? ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-09          76484

Statistically, every state that has passed right to carry laws experience a lowering of violent crime rates. That's, of course, after all the real wackos (patriotic libs) scream about how the blood will flow in the streets if the law passes. Never happens.

Alaska just changed its CCW law to not require a permit to carry concealed if you're legal to possess a firearm. We're only the 2nd state not requiring a permit. I think the other one is Vermont, correct me if I'm wrong. I have mixed feelings about that. As well intentioned as honest citizens are, they should educate themselves as to when deadly force is allowed. Not requiring a permit to carry concealed may circumvent that education for some.

I have a permit mainly to be able to carry in other states where I visit frequently. Washington, Montana and Arizona mainly.

I'm into shooting sports, always have been, but also view my sidearm as a tool, like Lawman. Since I retired from APD I've had one occasion to draw down on an idiot in, of all places, a MacDonald's parking lot at lunch time. Had I been unarmed there's no doubt that someone was going to get hurt. 99.9999999% of the time you'll never need it..but that ONE time that you do nothing else will suffice.

This idea that packing heat is more dangerous for you is pure h....s..t. Once again, statistics prove otherwise. Sure, there's always the exception. The fact that 35-40% of police officers killed are killed with their own weapons doesn't mean we should disarm the police for their own safety.

There are, and I think Mark & Lawguy would agree, a few officers out there that shouldn't be carrying guns (or for that matter even be cops), the same with a few honest citizens. But the greater good is served by being free to make that choice.

One last thing. I hear the same, tired arguments the patriotic libs make against firearms, especially handguns and "assault" rifles. They always "quote" statistics to back them up. Knowing for a fact that their statistics conflict with even the Federal Government's own statistics, would indicate they aren't mis-stating but simply lying. My question has always been, what is their REAL agenda. I think the answer is that firearm ownership represents freedom and self sufficiency. That's against the liberal mentality. They want big government to run our lives and make us subserviant. So anything that represents individuality and freedom from big government, they're against.

Now I gotta run. I'm installing a shotgun rack on the tractor. We get bears through the yard in the summer and I almost bumped into a sow and 3 cubs last year while mowing.

....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-09          76485

I am for freedom to carry but with that freedom come great repsonsibility. The exception to this I would hope include drunk drivers along with the fruit cakes, drug abusers, etc. I also think it should be as easy for me to get a permit if required as it is for you. I am a Benefactor Life Member of the NRA and strongly support these freedoms. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-10          76500

I think you saw the Matrix one too many times buddy.

You could be a Navy Seal, Bruce Lee, heavyweight champ of the world, and half Ninja all cobined and if the other guy has a gun yer' cooked most times. Plenty of big strong guys dead from 14 year old crackheads with guns.

That is why honest people want to carry handguns, there's no such thing as a fair fight. Knives, guns, bats, etc, enter the fray REAL quick. When was the last time you so two people go at to without one group of friends jumping in?

I have seen an old man beaten with "the club" after a minor traffic dispute with a much younger and physicaly able man. He could have taken the old guy with one hand but nowadays why dirty your hands, just hit em' with something. I have also seen a loud mouth challengs a guy to a fight and when the quiet guy accepted the big mouth was so stunned he let 6-7 rounds go froma small automatic he had hidden in his waistband (amazingly he missed!). I had a friend stabbed through most of the organs in his midsection over bumping a guy in line at White Castle. No warning, no fight just BAM! There are many other examples but the point is there was no need for weapons but the bad guys went for them first thing.

These instances were all while I was off duty. Would a gun have helped in all cases, no but it would have saved the old man from a beating and the loud mouth might not be drawing any weapons. With the old guy I stopped the beating, chased him but when he started running red lights I backed off, the guy with the gun ran off before I got out of my front door and the stabbing happened before I as acop and I was bartending next door( he ran off, got caught,near beat to death and jailed)

My point is if you get in very many confrontations today, before long you'll be on the wrong side of a gun, some other weapon or beaten down by superior numbers. I avoid conflict but take comfort in the fact that 90% of the time I'm going to be the best armed.

People with guns avoid trouble more than those without a gun. You can't fight while carrying a gun. People see it and panic even if your not using it, the opponent now has an excuse to use a weapon(maybe even legally), legal ramifications regarding your license and if you are wrestling around you may lose it.

Some people shouldn't have guns but then again many people shouldn't have kids, responsible jobs or drivers licenses.
If you aren't a felon, insane and can do the last three items I listed responsibly, you should be able to carry a gun with a basic course on the law and safety. ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-10          76502

OK, Richard..you crossed the line. The "Barney" thingee was uncalled for but I could care less. Yes, I survived..how the h..l would you think I could be writing this piece of brillance if I hadn't?? How about this. I could survive in west verginny very easily. All I'd have to do is wear bib overalls and pull half of my teeth and blend in with the crowd. Not that I'm stereotyping W.VA. But you named the tune, I'm just dancing to it, pard.

Lawguy, you're absolutely right. These days just making eye contact in traffic can provoke a deadly encounter. Just walk softly and carry a BIG stick. Having our L.E. training does make us vunerable, legally speaking. That goes for permitees who are trained in shoot/don't shoot legalities. We've got to be spot on if we resort to deadly force, or the threat of it, lest we be held to a much higher standard of conduct than, say, Richard.

Again, Lawman, you're right about responsiblity when it comes to vehicles, having kids..etc. The vast majority of our social ills come from irresponsible parenting. But we don't need a permit to reproduce. Probably because the Kennedys or Clintons and the like wouldn't have been qualified for permits.

Most bad guys when confronted by an armed citizen don't have the guts to follow through with their evilness. In most cases when merely confronting an armed citizen they cut & run. The number of armed encounters in the U.S. between scum and armed good guys is in the 2,000,000/yr range. About 4 times more than the police experience. In many of these situations, had the citizen been unarmed, the call to 911 would have been to retrieve the body and investigate the crime scene. That really helps the victim.

Mark..you are right too.




....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-10          76513

Just think how all this sounds to somebody coming here for the first time to learn about tractors or for that matter to somebody who puts in time and expertise to answer serious tractor related questions. Every time this sort of exchange happens and persists our tractor content drops off. The particular subject or orientation doesn't make any difference. The results are just noise that puts off people who want to know about tractors and we get fewer participants, more noise and less tractors.

The one thing I learned in the military, playing soccer or in a band for that matter is that you take care of the buz of what ever you're in first. Anything else is self-indulgence. Usually there is usually some room for self-indulgence but it has to be balanced with the buz. The buz here is tractor content and we need to get back to it before we turn into late night radio end up with no tractor content.

In any group we earn our recognition and respect by how well we contribute to the buz--questions as well as answers. Most people here contribute and have earned the right to speak. Those who haven't shouldn't be thought of serious persons and shouldn't be taken as sources of insult no mater what is said.

Freedom of speech too has responsibilities and limits. Measures are available against strong transgressions and maybe Dennis will consider some of them.
....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-02-10          76529

Many of us that have tractors also share in many common interests such as machine shop and fabrication, fishing, hunting, sport shooting, boating, gardening, farming, etc. If you go to the bar, you don't just talk tractors all of the time. As a suggestion, I think Dennis should consider expanding our board or create links with this one. Those that only want to talk tractor stuff can and those that want more also can. (i.e. If you're a premium member you could do it all).

It is great that we live in a free society where we can express our thoughts. We can think as we wish. Sometimes our common interests and viewpoints get stressed a little.

Haven't started my tractor is several days now, so nothing broke or bent and assume it will start next time. So nothing to report on the tractor. In Michigan you can't mount a gun or have a gun on a moving vehicle. You can, but don't get caught. A local farmer got his combine and corn header taken by the DNR for using it while shooting pheasants in the fall.

Have you guys noted the number of pheasants at the road side lately. They must be getting stones for digestion and rock salt. The snow is hard packed here with a crust on top that the birds can pick through. This is the hardest month for critters to get through.

I've intentionally changed the subject matter so we can go in a different and more pleasant direction. ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2004-02-10          76534

wildman:

I would appreciate a little more respect for WV. If you have issues with another member, take it up with the member and not the state he lives in. As far as pulling a gun in a parking lot in WV, yes there are certain parts of WV you would probably be better off keeping your weapon holstered as about half the parking lot or better have rifles in their trucks and would not bother them in the least to take someone out. That is only select places in WV. You point a gun at one person and there would probably be about 10 or 15 pointed back at you. Other than the WV comment your masterpiece had good content.
The only thing that concerns me over CCW is someone who is not properly trained. Number one, don't ever draw your weapon unless you plan on using it if necessary (in other words if you can't shoot someone then leave it at home). Law enforcement or retired officers carrying is one thing because most have been trained how to be restrained and not stuff a gun in someone's face because they cut you off or said something out of the way. A lot of hotheads out there may choose the wrong time to display their weapon and feel they may need to go further than necessary. I've been wanting to get a CCW permit but the wife is deadset against it. ....

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wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2004-02-10          76577

TomG
Please note that this thread is on the Just for fun/Off Topic section of this great site. I joined as a premium member becuase of all the good information available and all the great and knowledgable people here. But to be honest with you if this site were limited to strict guidelines of the only discussion permitted was tractor purchase and repair, I would have not probably joined as a premium member.
There are many other discussions here regarding landscaping and vehicles and so forth that are extremely helpful and when a thread like this one begins it is good to see that there are so many out there that have their opinions and are not scared to share them. ( Not to mention that I for one agree with;-)
If someone new comes here and reads all this, it is their choice, no one is forcing them too. If they want just tractor specifics then they have that option as well.
Just my .02 I truly enjoy talking with and learning so much about not only tractors, but other folks here, their interests and views. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-10          76582

Group hug everybody!!!!! ;o)........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................NOT! ;o) Just kiddin'........we WEREN'T having a moment there! ;o) ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-10          76594

Well, we got alittle heated but we covered many tough subjects so it may have bben inevitable.

All in all we got alot of good info. and some great give and take.

Wildman, you'reright these days you better by 110% clear cut in the right. If you screw up you'll be up to your eyes in lawyers and you can't even kill them fellas with a silver bullet, they just multiply :) :) ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-02-10          76596

Heck, if you're 100% in the right you'll STILL be up to your eyeballs in lawyers.

As an aside, I just read that Peterson's lawyer Geragos is going to claim that GPS technology is not generally accepted as accurate in order to throw out the tracking evidence they have on Peterson. The xxxxxxxx lawyers will say anything and do anything to get anyone off. Our justice system would be far better off if lawyers were tasked with getting at the TRUTH rather than getting people off. ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-11          76606

Kubotaguy..I really didn't mean what I said about WV. I was directing a rebuff to a certain individual, though, when I wrote the comment I had this nagging feeling that someone would take offense. But I just couldn't help myself. The description probably fits the intended receipient and certainly not the rest of the state. Thanks for the wakeup. My humblest appologies.

I agree that a section like this is a good thing. It kind of lets members get to know each other beyond the tractor thing. My feeling has been that most of our members are conservative, salt of the earth, apple pie and motherhood types. I mean, libs would hire it done.

And it is slow in the tractor arena right now, at least for me. So we can blow off steam in the high suicide season whilst we await tractor season...at least for me. (I can't start digging until after breakup which is around May 1st.)

Has anyone read about Alaska's aerial wolf control policy? We're being boycotted by the Friend's of the Animals..etc..in the States over it. Any comments or opinions? We've tried to implement this for years and have been boondogled by outside influence at every turn. The issue is, too many wolves in certain areas killing too many moose needed for subsistence use. Our new Governor, Frank Murkowski, is a bulldog and just doesn't give a c..p what anyone else thinks and pushed this through. Not that I disagree.

Anyway, after 43 years up here I have my opinions on it. Just thought I'd see what the south "48ers" think.

"Eat moose, 10,000 wolves can't be wrong"







....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-02-11          76607

GPS not accurate?? He needs his medication changed! I have docked my boat in fog using GPS. BUT..attorneys can be outrageous. I think mercury sinks to the bottom when poured into water. If so, then that would disrupt the breeding grounds of attorneys.

....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-02-11          76615

Dear Lawman, the people of the third world will always love to hate the United States of America. We respresent everything that they want; great health care (despite the HMO's), higher savings, better homes, better consumer goods, our freedoms, and most of all, our jobs. The third world folk are willing to do anything to get an American's job, and it looks like they'll have the chance. I expected the liberal socialist Democrats to pony up with freebies for the illegals, but I never in a million years expected the GOP. Our nation is sliding towards third world status as more jobs are lost, the HMO's make being ill and having a job a crime (take a look at who chokes your local ER, using it as their own private primary care facility which we pay for), and our politicians put special interests before their voters. When I read stories like the one in your post, I am not a bit surprised. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. Don't sell off grandpa's old hogleg, you just may need it in the not too distant future. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2004-02-11          76629

This is a little long but somewhat timely with the recent fighting in our little tractor sandbox. :-)



Policies against bullies won't work

By Jerome Christenson / Winona Daily News
King Canute is alive, well and writing education policy statements.

You remember His Majesty, he's the fellow who had his throne set up on the seashore at low tide and commanded the sea to stay put.

He ended up with wet feet.

Since then he's lowered his sights a bit. Now he's ordering mean, little kids to "be nice."

Or else.

Yup, by policy, given proper first and second readings, with revisions, majority votes and the appropriate enshrinement in thick, administrative manuals, school officialdom is putting an end to the common schoolyard bully.

Or so they think.

As a kid who went through childhood as prime bully-bait I hate to tell 'em, it ain't gonna work.
As the adult, that kid became, I can tell ‘em, I sure hope it doesn't work.

Oh, I suppose they have good intentions and all n these folks usually do. They want to protect kids from pretty much anybody or anything that "is intended to cause or is perceived as causing distress to one or more students…" and they spend five single-spaced, footnoted pages of convoluted legalese spelling out how to do it.

To condense and translate, mandated juvenile social harmony will be attained through compulsory tattling followed by a multi-stage investigation the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Warren Commission; followed by the tattler being placed in a witness protection program, presumably to be relocated to a remote Iowa county until the whole thing blows over.

I'll say it again, it ain't gonna work … I'm glad it ain't gonna work.

Our kids need bullies.

Let me explain.

I was a sawed-off, runty kid with thick glasses and a big mouth, the kind of kid that attracted bullies like a tax cut attracts Republicans. Being my parent's oldest, I didn't have a big brother to bully me at home; I had to wait until my first day of school to meet my first bully.

I'll call him LeRoy, because that's his name. He pointed out I was puny, dressed funny and had the wrong kind of lunch box. Then he pushed me into the mud.

I didn't like that. That night I told Mom all about it. She told me I'd have to fight my own battles.

On the second day of school, LeRoy pushed me into the mud again.

I got up and hit him in the face. After his nose stopped bleeding, we both got sent to the principal. By the time the two of us finished sitting out a week's worth of recesses as punishment for fighting, we got along pretty well.

I learned to stand up for myself. LeRoy learned that even a muddy, runty kid can pack a mean right jab. That's a lot of education to pack into the second day of school.

In time I learned that bullies weren't going to just go away. There was a kid bigger and meaner than LeRoy just waiting to take his place, and I'd have to figure out how to deal with him … and the kid after him and after him… Teachers and principals lined up with my folks to help n "Don't tattle to me," they said, "You have to learn to fight your own battles."

And I did. We all did. With no help from caring adults we discovered that when three or four or ten of us cornered a playground thug behind the town band shell and left him to make his way home scuffed, bleeding and without his pants — with further fair warning that next time his underwear also would be forfeit — it had a wonderfully civilizing influence on his future behavior. Call it vigilante justice, participatory democracy, ad hoc conflict resolution or the application of positive peer pressure — we learned to fight our own battles. Some we won. Others we lost. What we learned served us well. Except for the ones in prison, we all survived to become reasonably decent, reasonably productive adults. Even the kid everybody called "Wedgie" went on to invent thong underwear…

King Canute's policy writers threaten to take that all away … turn what should become tough, independent kids into so many simpering, whining tattletales.

They can mandate that the schoolyard become a bully-free zone all they like, but it ain't gonna happen.

Being a bully is too much fun … especially when nobody's learning to fight back.

If you don't believe me, put the question to Saddam.

It ain't gonna work. Policy or no policy.

I hope the king is wearing his boots. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-02-11          76654

The soccer incident just popped up on FoxNews.com from the Associated Press feed. ....


Link:   Fox News story

 
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Arkaybee
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7 ARKLATEX (NW LA)
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2004-02-12          76711

According to snopes.com, a site devoted to debunking e-mail hoaxes and other urban legends the statements attributed to Robin Williams are not his, except for the last one about the Statue of Liberty which is legitimately his. Read more at the link below. ....


Link:   Urban legends debunked

 
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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2004-02-12          76720

It really doesn't matter to me who said it. I just included Robin Williams name because that was the e-mail I received and did not want to be accused of not giving credit.
I don't care if the Easter Bunny said it, I feel it has a somewhat powerful message and was trying to get that point accross.
However I do find it odd that the Statue of Liberty would have a bat and say you want a piece of me now considering it was a gift from the French!!!!!! ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-12          76721

shortmagnum, in all respect for your position (and I agree with a good bit of it); I think you are a little out of touch about what goes on with kids at school nowadays.

Gone are the days of kids settling things themselves with just themselves. Now they use guns, knives, and other weapons. Gangs are prevailent in many areas and unless you want to start a war (which I have on an occasion or two); what you suggest is just not gonna work.

I teach my kids to avoid a fight if at all possible but defend themselves and do it with every bit of strength they possess. That having been said; I send them to school to learn and be educated NOT to fight.

My method is to contact the parents of these bullies and "explain the facts of life to them". Whether or not my child was victorious in the fight is irrelevant. I explain as politely as possible that I don't want any further confrontations or harrassment from their child. Should that not sink in; I explain that they will be explaining it to the judge. Barring success at this level; I very tactfully and politely explain to the father of the other child that we will be settling up issues in the same manor as the kids if they choose not to excersice their parental responsibility. This seems to have a reasonably productive and motivational influence on the errant father and our conversation.

I teach my kids to avoid violence and fighting. They also know they will get one heck of a Whoooopin' if they start a fight not in self defense. They also know there will be consequences if they let a bully get away with putting his/her hands on them without defending themselves. I made this VERY clear to the school board and principal. They changed the rules about fighting because of it and deleted the suspension for fighting for self defense at my request after I explain that self defense is one of the most basic human rights.

The school principals hold the nuclear weapon of student behavior compliance yet rarely have the courage or integrity to use it. It is call expulsion. When a child is expelled from a school; no other school in the area will accept them either. This forces the parents to either move to a school district that will accept them (which is nearly impossible) or pay to send their unruley child to a private school. In my opinion, after "3 strikes" (provided the other child was not seriously injured, no drugs, or weapons) this is a very reasonable, logical and effective option.

My kids are all A honor role students and I want them focusing on learning and developing their minds and values. We as parents and adults have a duty and responsiblity to ensue that ALL of our kis are focusing on that.

....

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shortmagnum
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2004-02-12          76736

Chief, I might be out of touch with kids these days but I doubt it. Including my own schooling as well as my kids I have been involved with schools for the past 40+ years. My oldest is 28, my youngest is 8. Your points are well taken but the problems with gangs and the problems with bullies are two different things. Bullies tend to work alone or with a couple of cronies who act as his/her audience. They were around when I was in school, when you were in school and they're there now. When a bully sees a possible weaker kid and starts in on him, the best thing the kid can do is stand up for himself. In a bad situation it's throwing a punch, hopefully they won't have to. This takes away the "entertainment" the bully gives his cronies when the kid starts whining. Without an audience the bully is just a jerk.

The main reason I want my kids to stand up for themselves is because the bullies are not only in school. They grow up too. I want my kids to know how to be assertive in their adult lives too.

I think our common desire is to give our kids the best opportunity we can.
Dave ....

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Another story the media Will Not cover

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-02-12          76737

I can agree with you there Dave! ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2004-02-12          76739

There was a movie out about the bully thing. The nerd kid was a science teacher or something and the bully was the shop teacher or something and started the picking on as an adult too until the kid stood up. I think the bully's name was fang (I think he was played by Tom Arnold). The nerdy guy was played by the guy who was in "Honey I shrunk the kids" (can't think of his real name). ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2004-02-18          77219

Another reason I love this board, someplace to vent other than to my family. Our laws are being broken and nothing is done. Our rights, i.e. 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, are being stripped and nothing is being done. It makes me wonder if my Father and all other vets have fought in vain. I also question having my son enter a military of a country that no longer resembles the foundation that it was started on.
The silver lining is the fact that the liberal media is so biased that, along with the internet, people are opening their eyes to what's really going on. Although you wouldn't know it by what our politicians are doing.
One of my favorite quotes; If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. ....

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