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homedad5acre
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-26          58373

It's clear to me that the knowledge about guns here is vast. I have a question to pose, if you had to pick 3 guns for the "panic room" of the house 1 handgun, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun for both the wife and the husband what would they be? Keep in mind that there use would be in close quarters and could involve many assailants.

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tracer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 boyce Va
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2003-06-26          58374

Homedad
Colt Python, Ruger 223 mini-14, 12 ga pump. Reliability ease of use in High stress situation and massive firepower.
You MUST practice with the tools and KNOW them well. And practice. Did I mention PRACTICE? The nice thing about the Colt is the wife can use 38 special +p+ if she is intimidated by the recoil of the 357. The mini is powerful and must be regarded with care because of penetration but is easy to use. 12 ga will kick. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-06-26          58375

.357 Mag (Colt Python or S&W Model 27 Revolver; 4" barrel)
12 gage Pump Shotgun (Remington 870)

Rifles are of marginal use in home defense, IMHO. The same money can be used to buy a second shotgun. But if you insist on a rifle, I would recommend a Winchester 94 or Marlin lever action rifle in 30-30.

I load my shotgun with #4 bird shot for the first two rounds in the magazine then there are two rounds of #1 buck followed by a rifled slug.

The .357 should use 125 gr HP ammo. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-06-26          58376

I'll agree with the 357 MAG but you really don't need an expensive one as the Python. The King Cobra would be just as good and you'd save some bucks. As far as a shotgun, one of those police (hi capacity) pump shotguns would give you plenty of fire power. I'd stay away from the rifle for home defense.

The wife may be a bit intimidated by these guns (noise/kick) but with a little practice, she would do fine. ....

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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
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2003-06-26          58382

Glock 40 S&W - Mod. 22 or 23
Colt AR or clone in .223
Shotgun - I'm not a fan of a scattergun. Anybody that thinks you don't have to aim one just hasn't shot one very much. Had a Mossburg 500 that handled fine.

Bill ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-06-26          58384

I agree with Billy that there are less expensive .357s that will work fine for you. I always like to recommend high quality guns but just about anything from any of the major manufacturers will shoot straight and will not wear out for the average homeowner.

I also like Glocks if you want an automatic. There are others that are equally good and perhaps better in some ways. The argument will always be how much quality do you need and how much are you willing to pay for it. If you don't shoot a lot, a full size Glock in 9mm or .40SW will fit most hands and doesn't recoil badly.

You do have to aim shotguns. Their main advantage is that they are a huge deterent even before the trigger is pulled. I recommend bird shot because you are less likely to accidently shoot your neighbor through your walls and it will destroy just about anything across the average room. You can then progressively advance to longer range and more lethal shells if you have to shoot more shots.

Rifle bullets will not be reliably stopped by drywall, plaster, or most sheathing on a house. This might not matter if you hit your target, but then again it might.

There is another thing to think about. The time to come to grips with the consequences of pointing a gun and pulling the trigger is now, not when you need it for the first time. When you need to use a gun, hesitation can kill you.

I can almost guarantee that this will be a long thread, because these opinions are almost religious in nature. Everyone has their favorite solutions and for the most part good reasons why they made their selections.

....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-26          58385

The closest I could come to home defense justification on the rifle would be a Winchester 9410. The scatter gun would be a modified remington 870 by one of the special ops companys that alter theese Like the wilson Combat. In reference to some of the less costly hand guns I have had so many defectives in the last few years I now try to get the best I can afford. I use a Kimber Custom Ultra CDP 2. My wife uses a smith Titanium .38+P with Laser grips. Milt sparks holsters, Cor-bon ammo. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-06-26          58388

That's another thing, auto verses double action. In a live or die situation, you are most likely 'not' to make a mistake with a double action. I say a mistake, in an auto, as can't find the safety or accidently pull the trigger.

I know there's gonna be a lot of people that disagree with this but in a situation of this nature, emotions run high. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-26          58391

I am not quite sure what you mean auto Vs Double action. You could probably debate longer than any of us will be around about SAO VS DAO Action Autos Vs Wheel guns. I this context though I am not sure I see the great difference. You could just as easily be pulling the trgger with the safety on with a shotgun. Practice and competence is the only real preperation for that, well other than experience which we hopefully never need but training, shooting and practice is critical. For concealed carry that would be another whole debate. ....

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plots1
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2003-06-26          58393

a wheel gun can be emptyed just as fast as an auto but they don't hold as many shots. I keep a 870 with a 20 inch barrel around for home protection. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-26          58398

That's true but if you need more than one shot your probably in really deep kim shee. Most CCW type revolvers are 5 shot with medium frames being 6. A compact 45 gives 7. The extra shot to me is of no consequence in comparison to what I would be comfortable with. There generally speaking is no right or wrong, just better choices for each individual. I know some one posted about being able to miss with a scatter gun which might be true in the field but at 10'-20' with buckshot I know I would be very hard pressed to miss. Cant go wrong with the pump action or wheel guns for mechanical simplicity. ....

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BillMullens
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2003-06-27          58414

I don't like a shotgun OR a rifle for what I call "home defense" because they both require two hands to operate. I guess if an evil gang of compact tractor owners was rolling through my yard, a shotgun would be great. I could step out on the front porch and start blasting. Or, join them. But I envision a scenario more like this one: I'm sleeping soundly with my wife at my side, and am suddenly awakened. I realize that somebody else is ALREADY IN THE ROOM and is coming toward us. Or, even if the bad guys were in the HOUSE, I'd still have to go room-to-room to clear them out. Need to carry a flashlight, and a free hand to open doors, deflect other weapons, etc.
For some, home defense may mean more protecting livestock from 4-legged predators, or a patrol-type situation. In that case, I'd think a semi-auto rifle with a flashlight mounted to it would be the trick.
Also, I have to agree with the comment about single action autos and operating them under stress. While I've run several thousand rounds through a .45 Gov't Colt, you just wouldn't believe how many ways you can mess up under stress. What works on the range sometimes just doesn't work when things go bad. I practice with my Glock almost exclusively, because that is what I carry (legally in my state), when I carry.
Bill ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-27          58415

I certainly agree with your scenario. I do not ever recall keeping a shot gun for home defense and for me a rifle is completely out of the question. We all live in different places though so it may well be different for others. I certainly would not want a SA revolver for this purpose so if it is not clear I assume we are only talking autos. I guess I just dont see all the ways to mess up with a SA automatic. It really seams to me that by far the largest debate for the two is one of concealed carry. Regular carry is really moot in my opinion as you have zero element of suprise and is simply impractical for the majority in daily use. The real debate there for most is carrying "Cocked and locked" not screwing up when drawing. If that or mechanical function is the concern a DA revolver cures all the problems associated with the debate. Unless you are in law enforcement then certainly the capacity in this day and age is of paramount importance. For home defense I just dont see the confusion or margin for mess ups, when you draw you drop. If I sweep the house the safety is already off. S/A or D/A the first choice is simply what works best for you and what you are most comfortable with. It really is a timeless debate. The far greater concern to me is the law. To my knowledge Texas is the best state to live in for home defense. ....

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tracer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 49 boyce Va
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2003-06-29          58502

Gentlemen
I was respoding to the question of MY preference. The question was what would I use. In my sitution I actually have a 308 fn-fal and 40 glock by my bed. A little farther is the Python,Ruger and Rem 1100. I have 2 "Outside" dogs and two "inside" dogs so unless a true NINJA Warrior is after me I will have a little time to wake and asses the situation. When I have been awakened I go for the Colt and a Sure fire Flashlight. I like choices. I dont want to tell you how much I spend on ammo, lets just say I reload to shoot more not to save money.
Every one has to make a decision about their sitution and act on it. "My" preference for the three stands. My advice is whatever "YOU" get PRACTICE PRACTICE PR... you get the picture. Just last week a Black Bear was in a tree 10 yards from the house. All 4 dogs did their job and I did mine with a 9mm that was the closest tool handy. Just scared him off. I would have preferred the 308 but the 9 with 15 rounds of Corbon Might have slowed him down enough to give me time to get upstairs. It just goes to show you never can tell.
Tracer ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-29          58514

Tracer, I can only speak for myself but I dont think any one was suggesting you are wrong for a rifle choice. We all have different situations and needs and comfort levels. If I did not have a NEED for a ccw I would not even own a hand gun. As much as I like the shooting sports, I personally have never really enjoyed them. That is just personal coice. I do appreciate good workmanship in any thing so I have my favorites but I see them pretty much just as a tool. That is just my perspective. Practice is so important I dont think we could possibly overstate it. ....

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homedad5acre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 N.E. PA.
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2003-06-29          58520

I already have a Glock 21 45cal. I have had it for years and it's kind of like that old pair of sneakers that you wore and wore so many times, but they still feel so comfortable you don't want new ones. My wife has a (cheap&hammerless)taurus 38 just about as used as my glock.
The only other guns we have are, a Harrington & Richardson single shot shotgun that I only keep because it was the first gun my dad bought me. And the other was my dad's sidearm in WWII it's a 25cal (don't laugh) he was in the rear with the gear. It says on it: automatic pistol"UNION I" cal 6.35, in the grip he has a picture of him and his mother and on the other side is a picture of my mother is her british uniform. All in a brown leather holster and to me it is priceless.
I use to hunt about 16yrs ago with a 30.06 that I gave to 1 of my brothers.
Where we live bears and coyotees are not are problem, our county is slowly becoming part of that larger metropolis known as the northeast corridor running between boston and DC. Still alot of open space left but it's shrinking. The only thing to worry about here is the human filth that prey and I want to be able to do more than pray if they get into our house. I am seriously considering a good shotgun, and the high output rifle is kinda something I always wanted.
....

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marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-06-29          58527

I keep a Magnum Research Baby Desert Eagle close at hand. Its .40 S&W bore can provide the necessary knock down and great accuracy with its 6 inch, hexagonal rifling. I bought it a few years back right before the majority of Police forces in my area were making the switch from 9mm to the .40S&W in my area. With 10 round mag rated capacity, it could be coaxed into holding 12 though this is techinically illegal now. Mine is not though. I'll settle for ten. Its ballistics are interesting, providing similar knock down capabilities as a 357 although not quite as much and much better than a nine. Plus the gun has the best comdort and feel of any handgun I've ever tried. Well balanced and a quality feel. It is made in Israel by Israeli Military Industries, the manufacturers of UZI. The gun was briefly imported by Mossberg and was branded UZI baby eagle for a while before Magnum research repurchased the gun.
Available with 4 inch barrel and in composite as well. My favorite feature, besides the quick breakdown, is the ambidextrous nature of the gun. Decocker included in saftey with firing pin block.

Also, I keep a 12 guage rifled slug gun (sabot slugs) with a 24 inch barrel. This gun would literally bring down an elephant. I've never had a deer walk off when it makes contact. They make some nasty slugs for this thing. Although a single shot, it is quickly reloaded and has little potential to jam with its powerful ejectors. Also, it can be shot with a load of buckshot or birdshot as needed. With its short barrel, it is the next best thing to a sawed-off shotgun. Plus if you run out, the sheer weight of the gun makes for plenty of lethal hand to hand.

Last, but not least, a rifle is always need. I am looking for another now. But I have come to the conclusion that the SKS 7.62 rifles are a great value. These tamed down semi auto versions of the AK 47's are durable and cheap. They have been manufactured by the millions and are carried by many(ahem!) military regimes. They take dirt sand and water with little problems. Also pre-ban models will accept the bannana clips. No ammo shortage here. If I recall correctly, I believe the Romananian built ones are the most coveted, although many egyptian and chinese models are out there. Ammo is cheap too! Sporterized nylon stock models are worth the investment, because, they make a decent mid range large game rifle.






....

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AMP762
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2003-06-29          58539

MY choices 1 govn't 1911 it don't jam and nothing walks away
2 20ga Rem.21"bar.wife can cover the whole side of the room
3 Ruger 1022 it does everything ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-30          58566

I have been away for a few days, so there are lots of posts on this topic.

I wanted to address the shotgun issue, just a bit. Shotguns certainly take two hands to operate, well. For some that is a good thing. I taught shooting sports at a state university and I also taught the NRA hunter safety course for years and I have had this question about guns for home defense posed to me several dozen times. (I also shot on the pistol team.)

Those that refer to practicing and developing a high level of skill are on target. For me, I do like a pistol for home defense as well as a shotgun. In a quick situation, I get the pistol that is ready to go from the bedside. If I have a little more time, the first gun that I get is the shotgun.

The statistics are not good for inexperienced users and pistols. Hitting the target is an anomoly rather than the rule, and the chances of having the gun taken away by an intruder are significant. Shotguns have the advantage of a long sight radius making "pointing" more practical. In addition, it is very difficult to grab the business end of a shotgun and take it away from someone holding it in two hands.

Fortunately, the mere presence of a firearm results in the end of the confrontation in many cases. The larger and more destructive looking the gun is, the less likely it is that you will have to use it, but if you do, that is exactly what you want.

So, my stock answer when someone will little or no gun experience says to me, "I am worried about crime and I think that I want to buy a gun; what should I get?" I always tell them a 12 ga pump riot gun. For the most part, these users are not going to be gun enthusiasts and will not practice. They probably will stick the gun in the corner of the closet, never oil it or dust it off. But, short of having a mud dauber wasp build a nest in the end of the barrel, that 12 ga is going to work when and if they need it.

....

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-30          58604

ACZ Did You get a smoker yet ? I am not sure I could completely agree with the above statement, although I respect your opinion. I guess I would never reccomend a gun to someone with zero experience in the first place that just wanted piece of mind. The problem I have with the shotgun scenario is that like you said they do get left loaded in the corner collecting dust. They dont get put away while the owners are at work or vacation and all too often not when the kids are playing around them. Sidearm lock boxes are nice for hand guns. I do however completely agree about the hand gun reccomendation. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2003-06-30          58606

#1, Colt 1911 45acp with MagSafe rounds, (Highest 1st shot hit potential of any handgun ever made). #2, Ruger Mini14 (short, light, fast), #3 Remington 11-87 semi auto short barrel cyl-choke. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-01          58620

No smoker yet. No hurry here. Going with the Cabela's unit.

When it comes to gun recommendations all situations vary. Factoring kids into the equation makes securing the gun much more important. I agree with you 100% about the sidearm lockboxes. There are conflicting safety concerns and a compromise is required. Pilots say that there is nothing more useless than altitude above you. A self defense gun is equally useless if you cannot get to it or cannot use it properly.

I just know, however, that if someone has it in their head to buy a gun, I have my number one pick and that is the 12 gage pump. I realize that most of these people are going to buy something with or without my recommendation. If someone is willing to practice and learn how to properly and safely operate and own a handgun, then there is no doubt in my mind that this is the best option for them.

I said near the start of this post that this is almost a religious argument for many. Most opinions are going to be based on some life experience. There are no wrong answers, only levels of optimization for a specific situation. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-01          58628

AcZ , I do agree with you overall. The thought of someone buying a gun who has never used one and never will learn, for self defense makes me cringe a little. But I know it happens. Judgeing from all the people I see lined up at the counters after something like 9-11 buying sks and M15's or clones, Iassume it happens regularly or in a fairly large volume at times. I guess thats another debate entirely. Overall I agree with the Shotgun. Like you said, at 10-20' with buckshot your chances of connecting on that first shot are a whole lot better. not to mention people love to sweep the house with handguns sticking 3' out from their bodys like they are at the shooting range. ....

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Alan L
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2003-07-03          58800

I'm no expert, but while the .357 is a great self defense weapon in the home, I would load it with .38 hollow points. You don't want to shoot a hole through the next house and the one after that. Same think on shooting a slug in a shotgun. I'd load birdshot in that. A rifle is better than nothing, but not the best weapon in close quarters.

I have a .357 and a 12 gauge shotgun, but I would go for the .357 first, unless I had a sawed off shotgun, then I might tend to use it first. Nothing like the sound of the pump shotgun to get the bad guy's attention. ....

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hockeyhead
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2003-07-04          58811

homedad5acres
The only thing most will agree on including myself is a 12 or 10 gauge. the handgun debate is enjoyable and I hope it continues for some time , great post. The truth is there are few hand guns that will not perform home defense only people that cannot. I believe that glock 21 45cal is your best choice "it kind of like an old pair of sneakers that you have wore and wore so many times" Just make sure it is in perfect shape, and truly learn how to defend with it. and it will not fail you. Now that shotgun, I think the 870's have a camamdo style 22" or 20" barrel and a 6 shell tube, 7 total, flat back plastic stock, run both buckshot and slugs in it, then stash a small game vest full of shells close and you should be just fine. also your wife need to learn to use that shotgun without hesitation and in close quarters. I use a winchester 1300 in a similar role with the vest stashed. If you want another handgun go get one, a rifle has limited value for in home defense,but my barn with my tractor in it is 150ft behind my home so a bolt action 30-06 with night vision does the tractor defending(just kidding). have fun gun shopping!! ....

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Glenn-D
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Posts: 54 Westmont, Illinois, summer home in Mountain Home Ar.
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2003-07-04          58873

Browning Hi-Power 9mm with Tritium sights.
Browning A-Bolt 30.06 short barrel. Leupold Vari-X scope.
Winchester model 12 pump shotgun. (pull the duck plug out)
These are my favorites to take with when I go shooting.
Glenn ....

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Glenn-D
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2003-07-04          58874

Browning Hi-Power 9mm with Tritium sights.
Browning A-Bolt 30.06 short barrel. Leupold Vari-X scope.
Winchester model 12 pump shotgun. (pull the duck plug out)
These are my favorites to take with when I go shooting.
Glenn ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-05          58902

Found two guns a would like to buy on the Wilson Combat site. #1 Remington 12ga 1187 magnum with a 14" barrel (swat model) #2 UT-15 urban tactical rifle. However they only deliver to a FFL holders. How do you get one of those? And is it necessary to get an FFL to buy them in a gun shop? I always thought that you just needed one if you had a fully automatic. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-05          58913

You can buy a short barrel shotgun under the same rules as a machine gun. It requires a tax stamp, but the price is much cheaper than the one for a full auto. It does require the approval of a local chief law enforcement officer or a superior court judge. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-05          58932

Just get one a couple of inches longer and you can avoid all the non sense and have it sent to a local FFL where your purchase would be the same as any other gun. I like The Wilson combat stuff but Mark had a site of some others that had a pretty awsome pattern on the 870. ....

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cutter
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2003-07-05          58933

Govt 1911 45 caliber next to me, 12 gage Hi Standard riot gun with trap loads strategically placed, 12 gage Winchester Defender pump action with pistol grip again, strategically placed. Concealed carry Colt 38 Agent with hollow points. Top notch security system with cellular backup and the bad guy can decide if dog the dog is there or not. No reason to worry about anything but a direct hit and a kill if you are in my house uninvited, don't want to be sued by a wounded criminal, end of story. ....

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DeTwang
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2003-07-06          59004

I bought my first home protection firearm when some drugged up idiot (high on breathing acetone) broke a window in my place and and was so high he didn't even respond to my screaming at him. Fortunately he wasted a lot of time playing with the broken glass (guess he thought it was interesting in the moon light), and then trying to pry the bars off the windows with my pickaxe (I lived in a pretty rough neighborhood at the time), and the cops showed up and he split before he could get in. The next day I bought a mossberg 12ga with pistol grip (now illegal in CA).

Sometime later, I was approached by my next door neighbor to give her rides into the heart of south central Los Angeles (school teacher) at 4:30 in the morning (I ususally left for work about 4:45 am anyways) as she was afraid to take the bus (can't imagine why). I was into backpacking at the time, so I bought a little S&W airweight 38 special to keep under the seat of the car. It's an aluminum alloy J frame and very hard to hit anything with.

So during the LA riots my brother and I went out and bought identical Ruger GP100 .357 revolvers. We also noticed that some neighborhoods were keeping safe by setting up road blocks and snipers on the rooftops with rifles, and those were largely neighborhoods that went completely untouched in the trouble zones. A lot of merchants downtown were banding together and employing similar tactics to defend their businesses. So I bought a mini 14 (I always wanted one, and now had a good excuse for it).

Between these weapons I have a decent arsenal for home protection, but all in all nothing comes close to a good dog IMO. They're like intelligent burglar alarms and can hear and smell intruders long before I ever could. If they don't actually scare an intruder off from the get go, they'll give you enough advance warning that a firearm might actually be of use.

The sad truth is that by the time an intruder is already in the home (especially in the room), it's probably too late for a firearm, and the advantage is already his, especially if he is packing.

I'd start with a good dog, as well as other deterrents (lighting, secure doors and windows, alarms, etc.) and then shop for guns.

Like someone else said, the gun you buy for protection is just as likely to be used on you. I think the best idea is to remove as much advantage regarding time and surprise from the badguy, and move it over to your side of the equation through common sense.

However, there's something to be said about the sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round on a quiet night that'll cause any boogey man to think twice about continuing with his plans.

I just pray that I'll never have to face such a situation again. It's far better to have a gun and not need one, than the other way around. ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-07          59038

I agree with you about the dog. We do have a great shetland sheep dog that I took alot of time training. I amaze the nieghbors with her. She knows whistle and hand commands and really likes to perform. And as far as a watchdog I can't imagine a better dog. I also agree that I'd rather have a decent arsenal and never need it, than the other way around.

When I bought my 45 and my wife's 38 I wanted the Mossberg with pistol grip but the store owner said I'll have to order it and it was taking so long I cancelled it. I was pretty young at the time and I think the store owner was being careful by not letting me walk out with all 3 guns. Sorry to hear that yours is now illegal it makes nosense.

I no longer hunt so I only want them if the boogie man comes. And I would never kill someone over a TV set or something silly like that(everything is insured), but if they take one step towards my wife or kids it will be there last. ....

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dcsmith01
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2003-07-07          59041

Where do you live? Bagdhad? Beruit? Are you paranoid? ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-07          59042

dcsmith01, what's your point? ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-07          59044

Homedad...
A shotgun with a bbl of less than 18" just isn't worth the trouble. I think that it must be registered as a Destructive Device. The license is only $5 (could be wrong) compared to $200 for other Class III guns. DD permits require fingerprinting and photos for ATF as well as approval from local law enforcement. (These will cost more than the DD fee) You may also be restricted for state to state travel with such a gun. These are restrictions required for the private ownership of items deemed by legal decree to be so destructive as to have no useful purpose within the realm of normal gun ownership. These restrictions have also been applied to certain spring powered knives and other items where there has been political pressure to restrict but no other statute to use. ....

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tracer
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2003-07-07          59045

Greetings to Dcsmith
I am not paranoid. I live in rural Virginia. I have had occasion to confront persons in the middle of the night who were threatening me on my property, Twice. I have also had to confront Bears and Rabid animals.
You may be interested to know that Handgun Control says 63,000 times a year guns are used to protect their owners. Other studies put the number in the millions. So somewhere between 63k and 2 million times a year guns are used to SAVE lives in this Still FREE Country.
My paranoia comes from people who who want to tell me what I can and cannot do to protect my self and my family and my property. Yes Property. I worked for it and I believe if you want to take it from me by force I have the right to KILL for it. Insurance means it is being stolen from a whole bunch of people(shared risk) not just me. So its ok just steal all my stuff that I have worked for. Its not worth a human life.
I could not disagree more. "From each according to their ability ,to each according to their needs" Right?
I dont think so.
TRACER ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-07          59046

De Twang...
A lot of people decided to buy guns during the LA riots only to find out that CA had a two week waiting period on any gun. When did that happen? Quietly and progressively in the state legislature. I was living there at the time, but have since moved. You know things are getting bad when your friends ask if they can store their guns with you (outside of CA) because they are no longer legal in the state where they live.

I have a friend that is a fireman in Long Beach. He tells me that if they get a fire call for a house with a "Registered Assault Weapon" (includes AR15, FAL, etc) that they have to wait for the SWAT team to arrive to secure the area before they will attend to the fire. The last time I checked, the Brady law was supposed to keep a criminal from buying a gun in the first place. Go figure!

Did someone mention paranoia?? ....

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JOHNWOLFE.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2003-07-07          59048

DEFINATELY A REVOLVER .357 ,NEVER HEARD OF ONE JAMMING! AS FOR RIFLE AN AK 47 IS VERY HARD TO BEAT AS IVE OWNED SEVERAL AND NEVER HAD A JAM AND AMMO IS DIRT CHEAP.AND A 12 GA. PUMP WITH A SHORT BARRELL. AUTOS ARE GREAT BUT IF YOUR WIFE HAS TO USE ONE SHE MAY NOT PULL THE SLIDE OR TAKE OFF THE SAFETY IN A HURRY. THE SIG .45 AUTO IS NICE WITH THE DOUBLE ACTION FIRST SHOT. ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-07          59049

AC5ZO, thanks for the tip I didn't know about the 18" barrel I'll keep looking.

tracer, I believe you have the right to kill to protect your property and I would never suggest otherwise, but my personal choice would be not to do so. I'm willing to let the police handle running down the thieves. I'd probably have them motionless on the floor for the cops when they get there. And I mean motionless or else. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59051

DC Smith, hay pal, some of us actually have been to those places you listed, Instead of being some mouthy punk who thinks he's slicker than synthetic snot and knows a few names after watching CNN get out and earn a liveing, maybe then you will actually be able to pay for the services you use. When I enlisted with my best friend he was eventually sent there (beruit) Do you even know what country thats in ??. After a suicide bomber blew up the Marine barricks we never had enough of him to bury. So just because I am paranoid does NOT meant "they" are not out to get me. Heres a sobering statistic that was on a aol daily vote. 9% of the people poled consider themselves unpatriotic. Homedad, I was always under the impression that getting a shorter barrel required a class 3 firearms license or a letter from the BATF. Not really worth it to save a couple of inches. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59052

In fact after reading your profile I can clearly see that you are just a TROLL. Anyone who would post that they use LSD as a part of their profile is just full of %^^%! . LOL ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-07          59053

Homedad...Given the way that the legal system works, you really don't want to be using anything very exotic for home defense. If you ever have to use it, a lawyer will make a big deal out of an unconventioal gun, modifications that might have been made, and even cartridges that are not commercial manufacture. Somehow, doing any of these legal and legitimate actions implies more than just the intent to defend one's self.

My point is that in 34 states (I think) it is legal to own a registered machine gun. But, if it is used in self defense, it opens a number of questions about motive and fair play that a .357 Mag or 12 gage using factory ammo won't. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59054

I agree to a point. It certainly pays to know the letter of the law in your home state as well. Personally I think Texas is one of the very few states that have it right. If its the perormance you want you can get it just as easily with out looking like you are just "waiting for the chance" by just swapping out the barrel on that stock 870 with a Wilson combat barrel or or one of the many others that offer a better group with buckshot but are of normal Deer hunting length. ....

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dcsmith01
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2003-07-07          59055

Doc, my profile is just a joke. Quips taken from popular movies.
Homedad, sorry you had problems on YOUR property. No one needs that. ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-07          59056

AC5ZO, Good point and something to consider. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59057

DcSmith; Regrettably the fact that many better men gave their lives for your freedom is no joke. ....

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Billy
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2003-07-07          59058

AC5ZO,

If I'm not mistaken, a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches is illegal, no matter where you live. It's considered a sawed-off shotgun. If you're caught with one, it's a felony and the shotgun will be confiscated and destroyed. There are no ATF licenses for such guns.
....

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DRankin
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2003-07-07          59059

Dcsmith, to a lot of Americans LSD is not even remotely funny.

You will certainly have more credence here with a profile that reflects who you really are, or even no profile at all. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59060

BATF does issue letters to own and posses guns with shorter barrels. Most I deal with are antique trappers with 14" or 16" barrels. If I'm not mistaken it already has been pointed out that licenses can be obtained to posses them and many manufactures are now makeing them like the Wilson Combat 14" model 870, although the point escapes me personally. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59062

The BATF letters are only for documented and BATF approved antiques. I have never seen a scattergun qualify. A class 3 Firearms DEALERS license is required to posses theese shorter barrels as their primarly intent of manufactuture is for law inforcement. I would like to play with one but I would not want to own one. While I will not run from trouble I see no point in courting it either. On another note. ACZ you mentioned the brady law. Is it just my wishfull imagination or did I read that law is going to expire. I know I read that the assault weapons ban is to be lifted and is not going to be attempted to get re-instated. I guess the thing I fear the most is that all of the anti-gun legislation law pushers have gotten savy enough to keep their mouth shut untill they get elected. Homedad, you can still get that Wilson Combat with the 18 or 20" barrel, I just would think a regular 870 would be a whole LOT cheaper. ....

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dcsmith01
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2003-07-07          59063

Sorry to stir the pot. I have seen the bad side of fire arms. Doc, freedom is no joke. My profile on a website dedicated to Compact tractors has nothing to do with anything remotely serious. My apologies to all. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-07          59064

Doc, the 14 inch and shorter 870's a purely for SWAT entry teams. When you go balls to butt in a "stick" with a bunch of guys, the short barrels are really handy.

They are intended for use in average sized rooms and can engage a suspect at arms length if it comes to that.

If you have one on a team sling you can let it go and it stays inside the confines of you body and does not get tangled up in doorways and such.

They are dangerous..... it is really easy to get your support hand in front of the muzzle at the WRONG moment. That is why most of them have a backward facing curved guard at the end of the forearm.

There is no tactical advantage that I can see for Joe Homeowner to have a barrel shorter than 18 inches.

Nor does it make any sense to load your home defense shotgun with slugs, unless you are anticipating dueling it out with suspects clad in body armor.

The best slugs on the market, Brenneke's, are completely capable of dispatching any animal that walks the earth. In Alaska we routinely dealt with the biggest deer on earth.

On the several occasions I used a 12 gauge slug to dispatch a injured moose, I had to maneuver the shot so that it would run the length of the animal. We simply could not keep the those slugs in the biggest moose on broadside and angling shots. Not good in a residential setting.

I once shot a two year old grizzly off someone's front porch. The slug entered at the base of the neck, completely traversed the animal and exited near the usual metabolic exhaust port.

I found the slug later, buried in the earth behind the critter. It had a wad of hair the size of a golf ball wrapped around it that had attached upon entry and had traveled completely through Mr.Troubled Teenage Bear with the slug.

Then there was the time I shot a Brenneke through a cinderblock, AFTER it had already defeated a class III A vest and 14 inches of newspaper.

No. You don't need slugs in your home defense shotgun....

....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59065

Mark, You wont get any argument from me there. Like I said the 14" are for law enforcement but they do make a "average joe", model with 18" and20" barrels. "IF" I were to go the scattergun route I would choose a 870 with one of those Vang Comp barrels you pointed out before. I mean to tell you friend that was an IMPRESSIVE pattern. How did slugs come up ?? It would seem to rather make the scattergun argument for being less likely to miss a somewhat moot point. I would think Buckshot would be the pick of the day. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59066

mark, This is a bit off topic. At one point I worked for the airlines for several years. One of the things we used to do was get a 747 halfway in a hanger so the SWAT team could practice. Seeing those guys hanging on the side of that bird was enough of a rush to skip coffe the next day. Then there was the Treasury boys and their short scatterguns. Believe me, when they are unloading Shrink wrapped bundles of new money out of the belley there is enough fire power around to put a third world country down. And they dont screw around. lol ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-07-07          59068

I think Vang Comp's 870 express with light,sling and side saddle might be the one for me. But I'm still looking. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-07          59069

"It's clear to me that the knowledge about guns here is vast. I have a question to pose, if you had to pick 3 guns for the "panic room" of the house 1 handgun, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun for both the wife and the husband what would they be? Keep in mind that there use would be in close quarters and could involve many assailants."

I think it boils down to get whatever you are comfortable with and are likely to PRACTICE with. If you buy the "Gorilla Stopper" and load it with the hottest loads you can find sure it'll stop anything but you probably aren't going to want to practice with it. You'll, be sore, have ringing ears and be broke from expensive ammo. This is especially true if you're not accustomed to firing a gun.
You also may have to factor in another persons ability to handle the gun if your spouse will also be relying on it for protection.

As far as my choice in your scenario I don't see what use the rifle would be, at as you said "close quarters" Shotguns are nice but I think I could fire accurately, faster with my handgun. But that's just me and it's what I am comfortable handling, you might feel different. I have 6 handguns and if forced I would rely on the two 9mm Glock 19's for which I have eight 15 round magazines. Not the most powerful handgun round ever invented but it's easy to shoot rapidly and accurately and I know it will do the job if I do. One of these Glocks was my wife's when she was a police officer so she knows the gun very well also.

If I really wanted the shotgun I like the Winchester Defender model 1300 with an 18" barrel. My brother has one, it holds 8 shells is easy to pump and fire rapidly and you can get a variety of stocks/grips and tactical accesories for little $$$$. He's had it for 15 years without a problem. I think it was around $275.

Come to think of it he has offered it to me in the past...I may just swipe it from him :) ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59070

F-350. In that scenario I would want the scattergun exclusively. CQCB being the key, I would take a 870, a 870 and a 870. Anyone can handle recoil when the adreniline is going. Reliable, simple function, big pattern. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-07          59071

Billy...there are lots of things that can be legally owned with the right credentials and BATF paperwork. I see no useful purpose for me to have a shotgun shorter than 18", but until I can find a specific prohibition, I have to assume that it is covered by the other DD regulations that include the USAS and Streetsweeper shotguns. The only reason that I mentioned it is that a 14" short shotgun was mentioned previously. I think that such a short shotgun qualifies as a very close quarters offensive weapon, not a weapon that is good for self defense.

Doc...I think that the Brady law is due to expire sometime soon. I mentioned it sort of tongue in cheek. You would think that if a criminal fills out a sacred federal firearms form and lies on said form that he should be prosecuted. If the data doesn't lie, then that would be the "number of firearms kept out of criminal hands" that is touted by the Brady advocates. But, unfortunately, the amount of prosecutions for such offenses is almost non-existent.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59072

Non existant is right. What a dissgrace. Any one who thinks that there is no need need to worry about looseing our guns to big brother only has to review the statistics there. Nothing but good old tracking Mr. Average Joe Citizens activitys so we know right where to go first. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-07          59073

Like I said it's really what YOU feel best with. I have carried handgun most waking hours of the day for years so to me it's much more natural than a shotgun.

For others it may be just the opposite. With the current gun laws I think most people have the majority of their gun handling experience with hunting rifles and shotguns. With the exception of law enforcement not too many carry permits or even pistol permits are issued here in the NY. It may be slightly easier in other parts of the country. The numbers of rifles/shotguns must far outnumber the number of pistols(legal ones that is ;)). They rake you over the coals in order to get a pistol permit.

I do like the shotgun don't get me wrong, but to me it's sort of a novelty to shoot. It would take more time and ammo than I am willing to invest to get the same level of comfort I have with a handgun. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-07          59074

In general I would prefer My 45 and no shotgun. Limited to really close quarters (panic Room) and what anyone else could pick up and shoot I'd have to stay strictly with the scattergun. As it is I do not use anything other than a 45 for home defense or personal defense. ....

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Bobhog
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2003-07-07          59085

Mossberg 500/590(8 or 9shot) pump; $300,,,AR15 Bushmaster $750,,,,any handgun you can operate in the dark and hit with ....

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cutter
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2003-07-07          59088

Thank you for apologizing to the members here DCSmith. Any time one profiles himself for others to view/interact with, it ought to be honest. Much of the wrong within this country is tied to dishonesty be it criminal activity, dirty politics or just a lack of ethics. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-07          59093

I am kinda late to this party but I would suggest a Colt Officer's ACP (fire 45 ACP yet is simple,small,& light enough for a woman to fire), Benelli M3 Super 90 (fastest firing shotgun made & fires semi-auto as well as pump if the mechanism fails), the rifle is a toss up: either Ruger Stainless Mini-14 Ranch Rifle with high capacity magazines (good range & high capacity, can do serious tissue damage with small round), or Springfield Armory M-1A (can penetrate class II body armor & class III with SLAP rounds, reliable, simple to fire). I would vote for the M-1A ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59109

Those are some good choices chief. I used to Have a Ruger mini 30 that was a whole lotta fun and very reliable and accurate. I have been drawn to the Springfield armory line several times but cant get past the price tag and the fact that the Shooting teams, USA, military etc. all use .308 (nato) chambered on the remington 700 actions. I know that individuals use others as well but its tough to justify those BIG price tags on the SA line, Although I still like them ! ....

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DeTwang
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2003-07-08          59121

Since we're on the subject of self defense I'm wondering what you gun gurus know about ammo designed for same.

For both my .357 and my 38 special, I keep these rounds in them that have bullets with teflon tips that are filled with shot. They're not the mini shotgun type but rather they're supposed to remain in bullet form and then disintegrate once hitting an object.

Supposedly they're pretty lethal against flesh but won't travel through walls, etc. to hit innocent bystanders. Once they strike an object the energy is supposed to be quickly dissipated.

Supposedly they were advertised as being designed for police for use in areas such as mobile home parks, apartment buildings, etc..

They were quite expensive and the theory sounds good to me, but unfortunately, there's no way to know how well they live up to hype until it's too late.

I keep them in the airweight 38, and in a speed loader next to the .357 in it's lock box.

What do you guys know about these rounds? ....

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59123

DeTwang, the rounds you are referring to are called "Glacier Safety Slugs". I'm sure everyone has there own opinion about them and I'll throw mine in there. I don't like them. They do not have the penetration that a conventional round has and you will need to put a big 250 lb. or larger man down. I like the Winchester Black Talon. I stocked up on them when they were still on the market and there are many similar bullets on the market currently. ....

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DeTwang
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2003-07-08          59128

""DeTwang, the rounds you are referring to are called "Glacier Safety Slugs".""

Yes that's the name. It's been so long since I bought them, I forgot what they're called.

""I'm sure everyone has there own opinion about them and I'll throw mine in there. I don't like them. They do not have the penetration that a conventional round has and you will need to put a big 250 lb. or larger man down.""

Maybe I should keep them in the airweight (not real accurate) and reconsider for the .357. I keep triple ought buck in the shotgun and I know that'll stop mongo himself (and his horse) in his tracks.

""I like the Winchester Black Talon. I stocked up on them when they were still on the market and there are many similar bullets on the market currently. ""

I've seen them before. What's the deal with the black talon?

I also have hollow points and slugs for the .357 ....

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Chief
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2003-07-08          59132

Nothing particularly special about the Black Talon rounds. They are pre-scalopped copper jacketed large cavity hollow points. I believe Remington makes a similar round called the "Golden Sabre". The anti-gun Nazi's made a big deal out of the Black Talon rounds for political purposes and Winchester withdrew them from the market to avoid the negative publicity. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59134

I didnt think those were available any more. I regularly use Golden Sabre as they are great for the price but If you only need a box or two I prefer thr Hi power of the Cor-Bon ammo. If you can handle the 38+P they are great. Either way hollow points. To me the only debate about a defense load is should it be as heavy a HP as possible or as light a HP as possible in any give caliber. I often opt for the lighter grain for max velocity. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59137

This is takeing so long to load I started part 2 ! ....

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Billy
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2003-07-08          59150

You're right, AC5ZO. With a clean background and 200 bucks, you can register these guns. Although I doubt you can in some states (California for instance). Just be sure to register it before you take possession. Once you possess it, without it being registered, it's already illegal and can't be registered.

As for the Brady Law, it's here to stay. Most states have even added to the Brady Law. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59151

Billy, Most of the Brady law has already expired. It began to expire in 1998. Most of it has been replaced with NICS instant background checks. In Mi you can now get a CCW VERY easy. The new ones are like a drivers license and you can buy the same day anywhere in the state as the licenses are no longer issued by individual police depts with all of the varying hodge poge rules from county to county. I have the older type where you actually had to justify a CCW so untill next year I still have to go get a purchase permit but I can do it in one day. If your laws are different raise heck when you vote, lol. ....

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Billy
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2003-07-08          59155

Actually Doc, NICS is a direct result of the Brady law. The Brady law stated that NICS would be up and running by Nov. 30 1998. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-08          59156

Yup, its really a continuation of it but the Brady law proper ( 3 day wait) is dead. Thank god ! ....

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Billy
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2003-07-08          59158

I agree, thank God. It's really stupid anyway. If I was a scum suckin murderin SOB and wanted to kill someone, how long do you think it would take me to buy a gun? You're right, about 5 minutes. All this law does is punish the innocent. It does nothing against criminal activity. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-09          59216

Nothing particularly special about the Black Talon rounds. They are pre-scalopped copper jacketed large cavity hollow points. I believe Remington makes a similar round called the "Golden Sabre". The anti-gun Nazi's made a big deal out of the Black Talon rounds for political purposes and Winchester withdrew them from the market to avoid the negative publicity.

I have had the Golden Sabres for years they are designed by the same guy who had previously made the Black Talons for Winchester. Remington was smart not to give them a wild name, lest they fall prey to the anti-gun nuts like the BT did. Golden Sabre sounds less violent to them, sort of funny, huh? :)

They are rather expensive though and I have read that the Speer Gold Dots HPs are just as good so I have been using them.

....

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Chief
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2003-07-09          59225

F350Lawman, you and I think alike. ;o) I like that! ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-09          59228

Yeah, well that stuff about great minds must be true :)

I really like these "best weapons for self defense" conversations. You get more answers, from a sling shot to a howitzer! I don't tink any of them are wrong or right as long as YOU'RE comfortable that you can defend yourself with it.


Let's face it a guy who can hit you with a 22 is better than a guy who misses with a 50 cal. For me I don't feel comfortable with anything less than my 10 +1 380 cal. or 5 shot 38. I shoot pretty darn well but not good enough for anything less, after all "a man's got to know his limitations" :( Actually I choose the Glock 19 to carry daily, even though I am thin it really conceals very well and I like the extra margin for error. ;)

On another note-

Still waiting for that JD 790, dealer said yesterday he was billed by JD so it should be there pronto. He said once they bill him they are on the way.
After all this wait and knowing myself I'll probably blast out all my tractor work in a week of 18 hour days and then start in on my neighbors property! My buddys starting construction on anew house so I am trying to talk him into saving a few $$ and letting me help him do the finishing landscaping. He's an electrician and does me favors all the time anyway so I figured why not plus the contractors don't seem to do much more than throw some seed around. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-10          59252

Hope the new machine arrives soon. I know you have been waiting a long time for it. It will be worth the wait. Just in time for all of this heat wave. Hey, another question while I have your attention if you don't mind. Have you been censored or deleted over on the "other" tractor board? The so called moderators are getting out of hand editing posts and deleting for really stupid or no reason at all. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-10          59256

Yes, I was cencored once, it was something minor like pain in the "pain in the a55" or "what the he77?" Something along those lines, and I used the substitute characters but I still got it censored and a message that "it's a family site".

No kidding, that's why I wrote it like that.

I have read your comments and wondered just what you were writing that you also got censored. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-10          59259

Well, I don't feel as bad now but I am still right pissed off. The so called moderator more like idiot MikePA deleted a post I added to the Support Our Troops thread because he did not like Rush Limbaugh; said his name was going to start a flame war. When I kindly pointed out to this nit wit that the link posted to the feel good music and pictures was hosted by Penthouse Magazine, they deleted the entire thread! They are mad at me because I embarrassed them and now they are screwing around with my posted. Did CowboyDoc give you the "this is a family, G rated site" speech? He changed my post to something I never wrote because I used the term POS. I then brought to his idiot attention that folks were using the term POS all over the board. Now he doesn't want to talk about it. I don't mind so much being edited if I say something I am not supposed to provided the standard is consistently applied to all. I read the rules and follow them as best I can. Their site their rules, but it really chaps my ass when the moderators pick and choose who the rules apply to. Another reason why I think this site is the best on the web. We have our little spats now and again but we all work our issues out like gentlemen. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-10          59262

Yes this is a very good site.

I had know idea what was going on with your posts. That is so funny it's pathetic you can't mention names they deem to be likely to generate debate? Isn't that what forums are for?????

Now you got me tempted look for my next chance to slip in Rush's name or my favorite talk show host Bob Grant :)

Since this is a gun thread I will mention that I tried a little gunsmithing of my own....needless to say the gun will be going to someone who KNOWS what they are doing. I had a problem with a 380 that was marking up the primers from a firing pin that was a tad too long (had it made by some other smith)so I figured "no problem" I'll just file it down a wee bit". Nope, now it gets light hits and goes off about every other time :(

It was a cheap Grendel model 10(out of business) that I got from one of the guys who worked for me. They have their problems so I had it sent out for a new firing pin after the original broke and no new pins were around. I now have found a guy online that supposedly turns these questionable guns into reliable guns with a workover that only is about $60.

I am going to give him a try. I actually liked that gun for summer clothing and for wearing with a suit. It is so small and the 10+1 380 in a 25-32 sized gun is hard to pass up for those days when I can't conceal anything else. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-10          59265

F350, some primers are harder than others. CCI makes the hardest and Remington the softest. All others are in between.

I had an early stainless Chief's Special that simply would not reliably fire anything with a CCI/Speer primer but ran with 100 percent reliability on anything else. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-10          59266

BTW, those drag marks on the primer are usually about a firing pins that is not retracting in a timely manner due to a dirty firing pin channel or a weak firing pin spring. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-07-10          59267

"BTW, those drag marks on the primer are usually about a firing pins that is not retracting in a timely manner due to a dirty firing pin channel or a weak firing pin spring.'

I don't know what it was but that gun aint' getting tucked in the front of my waistband until it's fixed! ;)

You are right, I would try to cycle the action while I peaked into the gun and the pin did seem to retract slowly, can't see if it every goes all the way back because the gun is closed by that point.

....

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Murf
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2003-07-10          59273

I haven't participated in this thread to date but thought I would pass on a little something for you guys to chuckle at that Cutter's boating thread reminded me of.

I use a 12 ga. flare gun on the boat for 'security' more than the actual 12 ga. scatter gun that I bought for such purposes.

So far the 3 times I have needed a 'detterant' was at night, the method of choice for liberating a boat from it's owner in the Islands is to creep aboard at night, when darkness (and hopefully sleep) covers their approach. The offenders are usually young men who if even armed at all only have knives. They approach by means of rowing a small boat. A flare or two straight at them and a round of buckshot in the air is a convincing arguement to a boat load of unarmed, VERY exposed, young men.

Let me tell you, a 12 ga. flare shell is an impressive sight skipping across calm water at night, it's enough to put the fear of God in the most atheistic of young men.

It's also kind of surprising just how fast those kids can row away, I never knew a rowboat could produce a wake before ...

Best of luck. ....

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homedad5acre
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-10          59281

Murf, That is down right hilarious and must be quite a sight to see! ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2003-07-10          59304

Returned from my road trip last night minus my 1873 32-20 Winchester. Picked up a Winchester Super X Model 1 XTR with skeet barrel. I had to kick in a buck, mine was in rough condition (rusty, broken firing pin, pitted bore) but the guy wanted it for parts. I ran 50 through it tonight, no recoil pad so the shoulder is a bit scuffed but the second round I was at 22.

Does anyone have any history on this particular model? I don't have a clue what it sold for new or the quality of Winchester shotguns at that time. I understand it is no longer made and is probably a 70's era piece. It has synthetic "wood" stock and some engraving that make it look rich and it actually looks new. I really wanted an O/U and I may trade this to a dealer but am totally in the dark as to the value. ....

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cutter
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2003-07-10          59308

Don't let it bother you Chief, some people thrive on being able to tell others what they can think, say and do. I have not had that problem there but that my be due to my seldom visits. I have preferred Dennis' site since I found it and still do. ....

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Chief
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2003-07-10          59309

cutter, I think my visits are gonna be more seldom too. How is that Silverton coming along. I have a Sea Ray Sorrento 25. I have not had the time to get it ready or I suppose I should say made the time to get it ready to launch. I just got out the Whaler and started the motor for the first time day Tuesday. Fired right up after a year. I will post some picture of her. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-11          59324

Cutter, production began in 1979 on your trade. Trade ins are to say the least usually very dissapointing as the dealer must be able to profit from selling your trade in. It is far more likely that what you get for a trade in will be predicated by how much you are spending more so than the actual value of the gun..... to some extent. You can try going to a local book store and looking up the value but take this with a grain of salt as most usually do not sell at those prices. For a trade in divide it in half :( Williams gunsight has a trade in valur book if anyone has one. ....

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cutter
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2003-07-11          59369

Thanks Doc, that is what I thought. I tried that one on the wife and it is just too awkward for her, hoping to be able to do something since I now have a usable piece. I may see what I can get for it at the club and then use the proceeds. ....

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JLHall
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2004-06-18          88861

we get 3 if i remember the original post. and i dont know if we have to own them already so ill go with these.

rem 870 folder ext. tube
.45 auto norinco
ak47
all well fed

if we get to just pick and they appear:

hk mp5sd
custom .45 auto
and most likely a drum fed 12 sweeper




....

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Wildman1
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2004-08-16          93622

Well, I keep a CZ75 or two by the bed and a variety of shotguns postioned around the house..all pumps with 00 buck. A rifle..IMHO..is to kill the stragglers at range, should they survive the close-in turmoil. Afterall..we don't need any survivors in that kind of situation. Keep the AR or AK by the door for the final pickings.

Love,
Mike ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-08-16          93661

I am more inclined to go in for the big "show effect" so here is my bedside protector:
Minuteman II ICBM
Ammo: Nuclear warhead (387 kton) and a spare 55gal drum of yellow-cake for reloading ....

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cutter
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2004-08-16          93671

You folks are too much! I can't believe this thread is still alive after all this time. Love it! ....

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cutter
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2004-08-16          93672

Chief, the Silverton has seen great progress this summer, it has been my primary project beyond taking care of the place. It will be in the water next year and hopefully I will have time to enjoy it. Just bought new captains chair for bridge, VHF, plotter, compass and assorted devices in the engine compartment that needed updating. Still looking for a suitable tower for the radar that won't break the bank. I have a plan to fabricate so that may be the path I take this winter.

Regards ....

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Chief
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2004-08-16          93674

cutter,

Sounds like she is coming along nicely! I sold my Sea Ray last week so I am down to one Boston Whaler. Been having some health problems and just could not keep up with a boat that size anymore. The Whaler is much more managable. Are you going to post some pictures of her? Would love to see the progress you have made on it. ....

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cutter
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2004-08-16          93676

I have some pics prior to the buffing wheel, taken after the hull was stripped. I will try to post them but they may be too large for the profile album. I will take some smaller images this weekend if I remember and stick them up there. Nice hearing from you!

....

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cutter
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2004-08-16          93677

As I suspected, ended up with piece of deck and bow rail :< ....

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DRankin
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2004-08-17          93717

Dennis has a new photo edit program that works very well. Click on your profile and then on the camera at the bottom of the page to find it.

Welcome back, Cutter! ....

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DRankin
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2004-08-17          93718

Ann... Hope you have an old grain silo you can use for a holster....... ....

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