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Lawn Tractor Suddenly Dies

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fredrocksr
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14 Oklahoma
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2003-07-30          60471

I have a 13hp series 2000 lawn tractor. After about 20 minutes of mowing, it will suddenly die just like it ran out of gas. There is plenty of gas in the tank. It acts as if you turned the key off. I read one post that pointed a similar problem to the coil. I have had the carb rebuilt, they found sand in the bowl, cleaned it, but it still dies. Once it does quit, it will start back up. What problem do you think I have. Thank you in advance for your reply.

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Murf
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2003-07-30          60474

Fred, two words "vapour lock"...

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-07-30          60475

I was going to suggest vapor lock, but in my experience during long hot Phoenix summers vapor lock usually occurs after the engine has been shut off and allowed to heat soak awhile. Then when the engine cools off it will start right back up. Normally when an engine is running the fresh fuel flowing through the lines prevents vapor lock. The way fredrocksr describes the problem seems just the opposite of typical vapor lock - the engine quits while it's running but starts right up afterwards.

Of course I might be wrong. It may help to make sure the fuel lines are routed away from the engine wherever possible, and insulating them couldn't hurt.
....

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kwschumm
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2003-07-30          60477

Here's another idea. The first car I owned used to cough and die on really hot days. I went through the fuel system, rerouted and insulated the lines, and changed fuel pumps. Nothing seemed to help. Running out of ideas I replaced the ignition coil - voila! That fixed it right up. My coil was failing on hot days.
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AC5ZO
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2003-07-30          60478

It could certainly be vapor lock, but in my experience, when an engine is running fine in one second and quits the next, the problem is electrical. If it sputters and makes some indications of losing power as it dies, then it will generally be fuel related.

Your experience may vary. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.;-) ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2003-07-30          60479

Hey Fred, got a few questions for you.

After it dies, will it start right back up (without any waiting)?

Does it do this every time you use the mower?

Does it matter if it's 100 or 80 degrees outside?

Does it run fine after restarting?

And (bonus question here) does it do it again in 20 minutes, after restarting?


According to how you answer the above questions but it could very well be the gas cap not venting. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-07-30          60480

AC5ZO, you're exactly right. My dad owned a garage for years and he tought me that lesson early in life.
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AC5ZO
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2003-07-30          60481

If you can answer Billy's questions, then I would add that it would be good to differentiate between:

"it will suddenly die just like it ran out of gas." and
"It acts as if you turned the key off."

These are very different responses and point in different directions. If you are not sure, turn the key off and see if it sounds EXACTLY the same. ....

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fredrocksr
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2003-07-30          60482

Billy, It does start right back up and it usually dies or at least tries to every time I use it. Outside temperature does not seem to matter. It does run fine after restarting and it usually does it within 20 minutes after restart. All you guys are a tremendous help with your thoughts. I will keep you posted on the results of your suggestions to solve my problem. Thanx again (to all of you) ! Fred ....

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Billy
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2003-07-30          60484

Hmmmmm. What do you think, guys?

I think the first thing I'd check would be if the cap is venting (always check the easiest first). It doesn't sound like the problem but neither does vapor lock or electrical.

Some of these things can be a booger to figure out.

One more question before I go. I'm not familar with this mower/engine.

I'm assuming the carb is gravity fed?

....

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Murf
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2003-07-30          60485

He says with a gruff voice ... "Hmmm, maybe I was a little quick out of the gate here..."

After some more information, and a short horseback ride along the river to think about it some.

The one statement that makes me wonder is that temperature doesn't make a difference.

Unvented gas cap doesn't make sense, otherwise it wouldn't restart without first breaking the vacuum.

I think AC is on the right track, it sounds electrical in nature, but I don't think it's the coil, otherwise temp. WOULD matter.

I'm going to take a second leap of faith and say it's a relay, loose wire, or battery lead.

NEXT!!!

LOL, Best of luck. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-30          60486

If the carb had enough sediment in the bowl to mention it, then there is probably something up with the tank, fittings or fuel line.

Sand in the fuel bowl would generally come through the fuel line, so if they did not do anything to the tank and fuel line I would check those. Many tanks have a screen at the fuel pickup area and it could also be plugged with sediment. Also check for any in-line fuel filter.

Cap venting can be checked easily or you can leave the cap loose for a hour to see if it happens again. I would recommend only doing this will less than a full tank of fuel to keep it from sloshing out.

You can check the entire fuel delivery system by disconnecting the line at the carb and draining the fuel into a gas can. If it drains the whole tank without hesitation, then it is probably OK. If it hesitates or gulps air, then look to tank venting. If it just drains slowly with a stream of fuel that is much smaller than the diameter of the fuel hose, look to the tank/screen/filter/line parts of the system.

If the fuel that you drained is clean, you can put it back in the tank.


....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-30          60487

Murf, it could still be the fuel system. If the tank vented, but not fast enough to keep up with the working engine, then it might respond this way. The same is true if the screen or filter was mostly plugged. It would deliver fuel slowly, but might stall the engine under power and it could recover with a minute or two of downtime.

If the screen is plugged, you can blow air backwards through the fuel line and it will dislodge some of the sediment that may be plugging it, but I would throw that gasoline out after cleaning a screen this way. Sometimes the screens will unscrew from the tank for cleaning.

It would still be useful to answer the question I asked before to help sort out electrical/fuel.

....

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kwschumm
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2003-07-30          60494

It would be interesting to see what the state of the fuel line is right after it dies. If there is a see-through fuel filter or bowl you can visibly check to see if fuel is available compared to when it starts and runs normally. If not, maybe after it dies but before you crank it to restart it you might disconnect the fuel line to the carburetor to see if fuel comes out or if it's dry. If it's somewhat dry it tells you that it's getting starved for fuel. If it's not dry, though, it doesn't necessarily rule out a fuel system or carburetion problem. You still could have a flakey fuel pump or carburetor problem (needle and seat problem, sticking float, etc). I'm not sure how similar these small carbs are to those in cars. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-30          60496

i had one long ago that did a similar thing. Went through the coil carb etc. I finally figured out that the condenser had a break in the wire and apparantlt when things were just right it would short out and just shut down. I would think you might check ALL your wires for breaks and damage, mouse chewing etc. ....

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TomG
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2003-07-31          60516

I don't know the tractor but the comments seem to assume a breaker point coil ignition rather than a magneto type. Thinking might be a bit different for a magneto. The condenser is a good bet. Old ones can work OK most of the time but breakdown infrequently. They are cheap and I'd replace it on general principal.

Similar problems can occur with breaker points. One side of the points has to be isolated from ground and there can be intermittent shorts. Come to think of it, ignition parts usually are cheap and I'd just replace everything on general principal. Even if it didn't fix the problem it it'd give me a lot less to wonder about.

I'll ask one more question. The tractor starts right back up after it dies, but do you change the throttle position when restarting it? I'm sort of thinking in the area of magnetos and kill switches.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-31          60518

Kill switches now Tom is on to a good area to look at if you have already replaced the standard electronic parts already mentioned. I remember in high school I rebuilt an old Subaru for a friend. I got the motor rebulit and everything ready to roll and I could not get that darn thing to start. It took me a week of studying wireing and diagrams but I finally figured it out. There was a seat belt safety switch under the drivers seat. It can take a little patience. It is usually something where you just think geeze, why didn't I see that sooner. ....

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Art White
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2003-07-31          60522

The ignition coils on those model Kohlers often act like that. Actually many of the newer engines do that when the coils start to fail not just the Kohlers. ....

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Murf
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2003-07-31          60523

AC, I agree with fuel being a likely source on any small engine problem generally, but for Fred's statement that it quits "like you shut of the key". Even a small engine tends to fade out and sputter, not just stop when gas is reduced, by restriction or starvation.

I think the intermittant electric problem will ultimately prove to be the problem.

Best of luck. ....

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Billy
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2003-07-31          60533

Fred said "It does start right back up and it usually dies or at least 'tries' to every time I use it".

Art, if it was the coil, would it start right back up? If so, that sound like a pretty good guess. I have had mowers run out of gas and die, just like you shut them off. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-31          60536

At this point we can all do a lot of speculation, but we don't have enough good data at this point. Both of the statements below were made in the original post>>>
"it will suddenly die just like it ran out of gas." and
"It acts as if you turned the key off."

These point in different directions and need to be clarified. Engines that die from fuel problems generally lose power and take several seconds to completely quit, while the electrical problems are generally instantaneous.

I agree with the comments about the condenser and the other interlock/safety switches if the problem turns out to be electrical. I am also still bothered by the comments about it taking 20 minutes to occur and then the engine will start again. A short in the wiring could happen any time, not just at 20 minutes. A broken wire can certainly be temperature sensitive when the insulation of the wire heats up and pushes the broken wire ends apart, but this will not generally allow for an immediate restart. A bad condenser may short/open after about 20 minutes if it has a temperature sensitive fault, but it would not immediately be OK for a restart. As far as interlock/safety switches go, I am having a problem figuring out what could be related to the 20 minute timeframe. I am wondering if there may be a low oil sensor of something similar that would be subject to engine heat and bypassed on startup.

Slow fuel flow in a gravity fed system will continue to partially fill a carburator bowl even while the engine is stalling and dead. This could very well account for the ability to restart the engine after it stalls. But, at this point, I would still like to have clarification on exactly how it fails and whether some of the comments about time to failure are consistent or intermittant.

Every one of the comments that I see in this post have merit, and any one of them could be on target, but none of them can account for ALL of the symptoms described as they are described. ....

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fredrocksr
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2003-07-31          60537

I have a long list of things to check, look for, listen for, and experiment with. Thanx to each one of you. I plan on using the mower for about two hours this Saturday. I will print this list of advice and check them off as the day progresses until I get to the bottom of this. I will update my progress at that time. You guys are wonderful to be so helpful. Fred ....

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Art White
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2003-07-31          60538

Billy, I'm from the old school and yes they used to need thrty minutes or so and the temperature used to make a difference. But it isn't yesterday and they do fail at any temp and at any interval today. We catch about one a month or so that fail and often the complaint is identical and we here no more from the customer other than running perfect. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-07-31          60541

There is another little technique that you can try also. We used to call it the $1.99 tune up (now it is $7.99 or $10CDN);)

You get the engine running without the air filter. Do this in a clean environment. Wear a leather glove. Get the engine running at over 2000 RPMs and then slap your gloved hand over the carburetor intake. This will cause the engine to faulter, so you can release your hand before the engine dies. Two or three of these cycles will often clear up problems. I have done this dozens of times on race engines during pit stops when we did not have time to get into the engine or electrical systems.

What this does is cause a high vacuum throughout the carburetor and pulls fuel into all of the passages. It will also pull fuel into the carburetor from the fuel line. (the choke will not do the same thing, because the fuel bowl vent and other air vents are above the choke butterfly) The high vacuum and resulting fuel wash will clean out passages and open stuck valves. This will not cure the basic fault, but it will get an engine going for a while and will help to isolate electrical/fuel problems. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-07-31          60558

Its just my very small 2 cents worth but it seems to me that the coil would be heated after 20 minutes of running due to resistance in any normal summer climate. It all seems like good advice and I would probably try everything suggested here based on the limited info. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-01          60601

Hey I know that tune up! I've seen it used for starting things too but I can't recall how successfully.

Real good discussion here, everybody contributed a piece to the puzzle. Suppose we've got to hear from Fred to tell if all the pieces are here.

When I mentioned magnetos and kill switches I actually forgot about safety myself but the comment seemed to trigger Doc's recollection. What I was thinking is something of a stretch but it's vibration related. For example, the end of the throttle control on some small magneto engines shorts the magneto to kill the engine. So I reasoned, what if something loose could vibrate and short the magneto? It might always take about the same length of time to short and any change in the throttle control might reset it. Well, a stretch like I said ( especially since I don't even know if its a magneto engine) but it might lead to thinking about other possibilities.
....

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fredrocksr
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2003-08-06          61066

I think I found the problem! I printed all the responses and took them with me to start a fact finding mission. When the machine died, it sounded exactly as if you turned the key off. I verified that. It did it within 3 minutes after starting this time. So, I looked and found one of those blue squeeze together wire splice's connecting the coil wire to the small wire on the starter. I inspected it and found considerable corrosion on wires and split spade connector. I got out the solder gun and made a good connection on these wires. Then mowed for 1 hour of tough mowing in pasture grass about ankle deep. Not once did the machine miss a lick or act like it would die. I would like to give all of you a pat on the back, but a sincere thank you to each of you will have to do. I will mow another hour or two this weekend to see if the fix was achieved. But, so far - so good!
Fred
....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-06          61067

Thanks for posting the followup! Good troubleshooting all around, and hopefully that will fix you up for good.
....

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AC5ZO
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2003-08-06          61071

Congratulations. Good Luck. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-07          61117

I had car that did exactly the same thing. Apparently somebody put a new terminal on the hot wire and cut the lead to the coil too short. Near as I can figure the engine would work side to side against it's mounts and every now and they would loosen the terminal just enough to make a high resistance joint.

It was a nightmare to troubleshoot. The engine wouldn't die, just take to missing a lot and of course every time you touched anything it would work just fine until the next time. It had to die completely before I found the problem. It was just a matter of splicing on a longer lead and using a proper terminal. I was one frustrated kid for quite awhile.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-07          61131

The bad news is you no longer have an excuse not to mow the lawn ! :) ....

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