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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-14          138804

A customer has asked me quote him on putting in ATV trails on his 100-acre plot here in southern Mississippi. Supposedly the land is considered 3rd growth which could mean trees usually Lob Lolly pines or long leaf (needle) ranging from seedlings to 24" caliper. Have not seen the plot yet. Before I do, I need input from those who have done even small-scale ATV trails. The owner suggested a dozer but that will make a mess I feel on either side of the trail and may not acceptable for safety reasons too. The existing equipment I have is a big, tracked skid steer loader with a grapple bucket, pallet forks and a regular dirt bucket, and a 20" Stihl chainsaw. Will likely have no helpers, so I'm on my own. Can rent any size excavator with a thumb, and dozer if I have to. Suggestions as what to with stumps--leave them? And trees--leave them or pile them or????? My machine is 7 feet wide. And what to charge would be helpful. :)

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2007-01-14          138805

I'm sure you wouldn't want to do it the way we do here. Slow and tedious. We fall the trees, cut what we can for firewood, use the grapple to move remaining slash to a chipper, chip into a small dump trailer, dig the stumps up with a backhoe (and pile and burn), backfill and smooth with a box scraper, then dump the chips back on the trail to minimize mud. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-01-14          138806

EW; I never built a trail in the woods, but maybe my experience of building an open front dirt floor machine shed would be of some value. In about 74 or 75 I wanted to put up a low cost dirt floor, pole shed. So happened the only logical place to put it had a row of big soft maples running right down the center of where the building would be. Anyhow we dug down a bit around the stumps and sawed them off like 2 or three inches below the soil level, then the plan was to just fill in the holes with dirt when the stumps rotted away. Right now I can only remember one time of filling in and it took surprisingly little dirt. Maybe that would work for you. We dug the holes for the poles with a borrowed 3 pt. auger, that's when I learned how well post hole augers and even 1 inch diamater treeroots get along, must have made three trips to town for another sack if shear bolts. Enjoy your day. Frank. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-14          138807

My concern was stumps: These pine stumps look like huge carrots---sometimes 6-7' deep. If the stumps are dug ot there will be a void that will leave a rut even if filled. If I leave the stump them the ATV could o will get hung up on it. I'm wondering if it makes more sense to pick a trail around the trees versus through them.

Chipping makes a lot of sense only I have seen only one one and that was at a state park. These guys down here use the burn pile method even for huge tracts of land. Some of the counties are preventing it though. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-01-14          138808

EW; I think you get a gold star for tocay, just avoiding the big trees makes a lot of sense. I think the ATV folks like to zig zag around things anyhow. Frank. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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jimbrown
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 56 Cochise cnty Az
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2007-01-15          138812

To me totaly flat and smooth ATV trails are positively booring. I would weave between trees were possible and leave some whoops and water crossings if possible. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-01-15          138814

Jeff, for more than one reason you should go around all trees less than about 4" in caliper.

The principle reason is of course ease of building, but also largely for safety. A stump is an obstacle, a removed stump is a PITA, and a trail that is as twisting abd windy as possible, encourages riders (especially younger ones) to slow down. Speed can be a serious hazard on an ATV.

For smaller trees use something to rip them out by the roots, bigger stuff go around it. Either your SSL or CUT would have no problem pulling out trees up to 4" in size, we do it all the time with similar-sized machines.

Once you have planned the path out in advance by walking the land with a GPS unit, plot it on a plot plan and see if it makes sense. Avoid straight-on hill climbs and running trails side-slope, but if you have to be sure to grade the trail so that water runs to a ditch against the hill, not out and over the edge to prevent erosion. If you have to cross water, you can use up cut trees building a corduroy bridge with them, if th crossing is at a shallow slow moving section of water, use a generous amount of gravel either side and all the way through the water, this will prevent the tires from churning up mud and sending it down-stream.

Best of luck.

Best of luck. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-15          138819

Murf--good direction on the trails.

How'd it work taking down your christmas lights? :) ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2007-01-15          138820

Some great points were brought up and Murf has some great points (as usual). Here's my 2 cents and that's about what it's worth.

1. What is the land owner intending for this trail? I know ATV, but why? Hunting? Getting access to certain features? Fun?
2. Does the land owner want to get to a specific location on the property?
3. Does the owner want to be able to access the trail with anything other than an ATV? Like a pickup? Does he want to pull a trailer?
4. Does the owner want any other features like a off-trail parking area or turn around?

My point in these questions are to determine routes and destinations that need to be factored in. Also, the actual width of the trail. ATV's are usually no more than 48" wide so if they want only ATV access, then your 7 foot unit will be fine.

Like mentioned already by someone, I suggest a windy trail vs straight. It's far more fun and it keeps the speed down. Don't get all worried about smoothing it out unless the land owner wants to take his pickup out on the trail. ATV trails are meant to be fun so they have turns, ups & Downs, etc. If he wants some more fun, you can even lay a small log across the trail to climb the ATV over.

Another aspect is does he want some straight sections to allow for shooting lanes for hunting purposes? ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2007-01-15          138821

Forgot one item a buddy of mine did was to use the chain saw to knock down and move out bigger stuff. Then he had a friend with a bush hog run down the trail to clean out all the smaller crap (<1" dia). Works ok, but those small dia stumps can end up sharp as pungy sticks. ATV tires don't like that so much nor a fallen rider. I like the use of a blade to make sure those items aren't sticking up. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-15          138823

Iowa, all good points. The conversation went sort of like this:
"I know ypou're looking for work, you a hunter?"
"No. Why?" (read: uh-oh-- somethin' for nuthin')
"My buddy and I have 100 acres that needs ATV trails. Can you do it"
"Yup"
Dat's all I know at this time :) ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2007-01-16          138869

Ok EW, at least i hope we gave you some points to ponder/consider. I'd love to have more property to make an ATV trail. Making the trail is half the fun. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2007-01-16          138873

On our hunting property the trails are all built up and diked for drainage. I'd run the trails the easiest way possible cutting the least. Cut the trees flush in the area of the path and come in with a dozer and tilt the blade building the area up for good drainage. Otherwise in no time your ripping up the trails if it gets wet.

Snaking the trail gives you lots more distance. I'd get bored just driving over 100 acres in no time. You will also scare all the critters out with all the noise. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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praha4752
Join Date: Jan 2007
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2007-01-16          138883


Yooper you are spoiled..lol.
I do atving in UP.//Norway/.

Joe ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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dajustin
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2007-01-20          138947

You must take out the stumps - they will rot and leave holes anyway- fairly quickly as the are pines. Also nothing will damage an ATV or rider- as hitting a stump. You must cover you liabilities. Rent a tracked excavator with a thumb, bigger than you think you need, and a D8 sized dozer. You will need it. Pile everything up, and bring in a tub grinder, or better yet hire a guy with one. Lay a bed of what we call here packing gravel or bank run gravel over the trails. Include hills and jumps etc.. Some stumps and trees can be coverd to build the jumps and hills- Snake the trails but include some straight runs. Spread you grinded debris over the trails. This will help keep them in good shape for a while, but not forever.
This is much more work than most relize. I often am called in to finish up for someone who got in over his head. Here in Southern NJ, its $5000.00 a day for the tub grinder and a crew with an excavator and off road dump truck to transport the trees and stumps to the grinder and load and operate it. The cost is worth it, as it goes very quickly. Figure 260.00 a day for your machine, plus your daily salary rate. Include your rental and fuel costs and hire a ground guy to use the chain saw to come up with a weekly rate. The ground guy will cut the stumps off the trees after you dig them and hold the tree with the thumb for him. While you dig the next tree he cuts the previous tree into tub grinder size lengths- usually 8-10 feet, Diamaeter is no concern. Contract by the week- you can get a lot done in a week- and can procede as the owner has the funds. Bring in the grinder only when you are completely finished. Seperate all hard woods and sell them for fire wood. A more informal trail system can be made by just letting the ATV's ride the property and picking the natural paths. Trails will soon develope on there own. Then you can finish them up. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-20          138977

dajustin: Sounds like you have experience, eh? So you wanna be the (volunteer) "chainsaw guy"? :)

$260 a day cost for my machine. I take it you own a machine too? Lemme do the math and see how that shakes out:

This is my third one. Mine's new and I've got $47,000 just in it. A set of special, genuine-OEM tires costs $2000 only from the dealer. I'm on my third set. A hydraulic filter is nearly $50, air filter set is about $70.

My cost to operate per hour is more than $43 per hour [based on old 1999 Caterpillar published data] inc. $9 an hour just for fuel so that's $344 a day---and that's not including MY pay. Plus my truck, trailer, $5000 a year insurance, $600 license plates per year, et al---and let's not talk about "Aunt IRS". Oh yeah, and the truck with 65,000 miles is on its 3rd set of $1000 tires. Before I even step foot on his property I will have invested over $100,000. (man, seeing this on print looks even WORSE than I thought :-( )

That said, my daily rate has to be $600-$1000 and up (depending on what or who it's for) for one machine and an operator---me. I have guys with their own equipment who want to work for me and they either want $100 an hour from me---or worse (read: greedy) they want HALF the gross proceeds from the job! (Ummm-they aren't working)

And a D8 with a 14' blade? errr? Have you SEEN a D8? It'd be a bull in a china shop. This is Mississippi---as in liquid chocolate-milk-mud below the 18" crust (and that's putting it nicely). One 90-degree turn and it will literally screw itself into the ground. I've seen it happen to 60,000lb. excavators. Anything heavy that can float and get traction across the crust can run---straight, no turns--across the crust once. Twice, you drop about 3-6 inches. The third time, you are a foot deep. There is no fourth trip.

This ain't land clearin' or strip minin' :) --I'm putting in an ATV trail, so 6'-8' wide is plenty. Even a D3 or 4 is too big.

So Justin when ya' available?? Saw's a runnin'

But I'm jis' sayin' ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-01-22          138996

If you wanted to clear the entire 100 acres, fence line to fence line, he's on the right track.

Provided the owner was last months PowerBall winner, and the excavator and D8 have 4' wide tracks.

Short of that, a couple strong backs and a Brush Brute for you FEL and you'd be off to the races.

Been there, done that, the t-shirt didn't fit too well, but I still have it, and I'll throw it in..... ;)

Best of luck.


....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-01-22          138998

Just out of high school I got a job with a road gang. They must have been really hard up for help, about the second week on the job the boss put me on a D8 cable dozer, probably a late 40's model, I don't kmow when they got hydraulics but this old moose had the arm that came over your shoulder to run the winch to lift the blade. That thing was BIG and CLUMBSY, but it would push just about anything you put the blade against. At 18 I was on top of the world driving that old noisy dusty thing. I have no idea what they weigh, but I sure would'nt want it stuck in a swamp. Frank. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2007-01-22          139022

And to think I thought an ATV was an All Terrain Vehicle. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2007-01-22          139027

I have found that following the path of least resistance worked best for me. I have a very extensive ATV train system on our properties and have it best to just use the ATV's to push down the vegetation that is least developed and once down, the repeated trips over the trail tends to keep the vegetation down and the trail open. One of my hunt clubs used a tracked skid steer to open up some trails on a clear cut area that had grown up that worked out pretty good but once in the woods the vegetation is not that bad and the ATV can push things down OK. If I need to cut some sapplings that are a pain in the neck out of the way, I just bring a pair of loping shears and cut the sappling small enough to cut with the shears and bigger stuff I use a Stihl FS450K with a chisen tooth saw blade. Anything larger requires a chainsaw. I have a Stihl MS 192T that is real handy and small enough to put in the box on back of the ATV or just strap down. I am thinking that bring in heavy equipment into the forest is more likely to tear up more timber than the ATV trail is worth.

Something else to consider is that if you make the ATV trail too nice.........that is tantamount to ringing the dinner bell for every ATV rider and trespasser to come and enjoy your newly built trails. ....

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100-acres with ATV trails--best way to do on 3rd growth forest

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acerguy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 69 Wisconsin
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2007-02-27          140052

My experience has been with trail building for hiking/mountain biking but I would think a lot of the basic priciples apply. A good resource on trail design and construction can be found at the link below. For my place, I've a mix of "driving/riding around stuff" trails and a few "arterial roads" for my CUT and trailer for getting logs and stuff out. Most of those were done before I owned it so I'm not sure how they were done but I tend to just cut the trees down as low as possible. I would think stump grinding would be optimal though. ....


Link:   IMBA

 
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