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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-02          95391


I sent for a copy of the owner's & part's manuals for a Rhino Box Blade I have at home, just because I'm kinda funny that way, I have manuals for everything except the wife, and I'm not sure I could figure that one out, even WITH a manual. Presuming someone could even WRITE one.

But I digress.

I got an envelope in the mail from Servis-Rhino, a big THICK envelope.

I sat down to pour over both and was amazed at what I saw, or didn't see more particularly.

The 39 page Operator's Manual breaks down as follows;

Two pages of Assembly information.

One page of actual 'how to' operation information.

One page of maintenance information.

THIRTY FIVE pages of Safety Warnings and Bureaucracy!!!!

It does though end with these final words, a thoughtful bit of advice, "Please work, drive, play and live each day with care and concern for your safety and that of your family and fellow citizens.".

Somewhat hesitantly I picked up the Parts Manual. It was 24 pages long. 14 of them were diagrams and parts listings, 4 sets of 3 almost identical pictures covering differing widths of box blades, and 2 pages of the hydraulic cylinder that moves the scarifiers for you.

And darned if it doesn't end with those same sweet words of wisdom.

Those lawyers are such a caring, loving bunch of people. 63 pages of 'information' and 45 of them are self-serving 'please don't sue me' contributions from the lawyers.

This concludes today's lesson in litigation, we now resume our regularly scheduled tractor stuff.

Best of luck.




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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2004-09-02          95410


With todays mentality you have to do that with every thing. People are always trying to get some thing for nothing. We live in a shameless world. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-03          95453


Ace, I hear what you're saying, but when it gets to the point where there is NO WARRANTY until you sign off on the following statement;

"I have been instructed on the paragraphs above, received and have been instructed in the contents of the Operator’s Manual including safety signs, safety equipment, safe operation, maintenance, and the potential hazards of unauthorized alteration or modification of the product. I have been informed of the warranty provisions and know that the warranty is not in effect until this form is received by Alamo Group."

Then it's time to re-think the wHOLE process and the system that allows it.

BTW, amongst the items you have to certify, BEFORE you get a warranty, is that all nuts & bolts are properly torqued, has anybody ever had a dealer go around with a torque wrench during the PDI and show that the bolts are all torqued to specification?

Of course my favourite was this little tidbit that the DEALER has to sign off on "I have explained that the extended head or boom or retracted boom can contact power lines with resulting electrocution injury or death and that operator is responsible for keeping clear of such hazards." No, really? Wow, what's next, I have put fuel in it every so often?

Everybody knows Murphy's Law, there are actually many of them, # 18 says "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."


Best of luck. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-09-03          95463


Back when I was inventing/adapting/servicing medical equipment we never even tried to achieve a foolproof standard. We kept tripping over the nurse proof line.

I was just thinking about frivolous lawsuits the other morning while I was sitting in the hot tub with the outboard motor running (makes more bubbles that that puny pump) and toasting some english muffins for breakfast.

If it wasn't for all those idiots suing at the drop of a hat I wouldn't have to unplug the coffee pot so I can run the toaster out there. I guess there is one benefit. Those new fangled 4 stroke outboards don't blow as much smoke in your morning coffee. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-03          95477


Outboard motor in a hot tub??? Are you serious??

You haven't LIVED until you experienced a PTO-driven spa.

Of course you have to bypass that pesky deadman switch, but that's easy. BTW, where do you think theyever came up with such a dumb name for a switch, after all, how can a dead man operate a switch ????? Sheesh.

....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-09-03          95479


Murf, I'd think in the winter you could plug the discharge of your tub grinder, fill it with hot water, crank her up and invite the whole neighborhood over for a good soak. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-03          95482


I thought of that, two problems, first, BIG clean up required, second, it's a LONG way up to climb in.

I thought it would be easier to just throw a couple of those electric BBQ starters in the pool to keep the water hot.

Best of luck. ....


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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2004-09-09          95998


Lawyers? There are some excellent lawyers out there, however, a few bad ones have given the whole profession a bad name. I am an engineer and engineers and lawyers mix about like water and oil. I am more than capable of handling the legal issues I deal with, but no, I have to wait on the attorney before proceeding.

The lawyers have set themselves up to control most everything(along with HR), and it all began because a few bad apples take frivolous law suites(i.e. the hot coffee suite) and sometimes win. Therefore everybody has to protect themselves by the legal(here again by lawyers) hold harmless wording. Additionally, a lot of the politicians on the state and federal levels hold law degrees.

I personally know a few good attorneys, and I feel for them because generally, all attorneys have received a negative rap. Sorry about the soap box but a nerve was hit and it could so easily be corrected if it wasn't for the attorneys.

Murf, back to the main issue, how do you rate the Rhino products. I am looking at a Rhino 300 model rear blade, from their web site it appears to be a quality product. ....


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big bill
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2004-09-10          96215


People are sometimes seriously injured by defective products. It is a simple fact and one we all understand. Remember the Chevy Corvair. Ralph Nader got famous by writing about them in his book "Unsafe at Any Speed."
I think it started some of this craziness.
It is also true that people do some really stupid stuff with products. Things the products were not designed to do. They get hurt sometimes. One fellow thought it would be a good idea to trim his hedges with a rotary mower.
He sued and lost. Most of what the average guy hears on the news about this kind of litigation is there because it us unusual. The run of the mill expected results are not newsworthy.
I agree that there are good and bad lawyers. Just like there are good and bad of all professions. I am a lawyer.
I have found that whether people think I am a good lawyer largely depends on which side of the case they happen to be on. Few lawyers are always bad or always good.
I was apalled that a lawyer friend of mine took a case that involved a man who used a rotary mower on his old tractor. This fellow did not know much about tractors so he did not use an override clutch. He got the idea right after being shoved on through a barbed wire fence. He sued. He lost. He should have lost. Get the idea? Occasionally some good comes from litigation. It can expose fraud for example. It can result in dangerous products being recalled. It does result in stupid warnings being placed in booklets and companies trying to avoid failure to warn lawsuits. Your doctor tells you about the risks of your surgery. If he does't you cannot give an informed consent. Would he do it unless a lawyer and a judge and a bunch of our fellow citizens sitting on a jury had repeatedly awarded money to some poor guy who wasn't told about the risks and got injured?
Lawyer's make their arguments to juries. Juries award the money, not other lawyers. Vericts come from juries afther the lawyers have their evidence laid before them. Lawyers usually will not let other lawyers stay on juries. The bad ones will bank on your gullability. Sometimes they get lucky...but only when "We the people..." let them.
....


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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2004-09-11          96221


If Ralph Nader (a lawyer himself, by the way) could have afforded a turbocharged Corvair Monza Spyder back then, I wonder if that book would ever have been written. It was about the closest thing to a Porsche that Detroit had come up with at that point in our automotive history.

Lawyers though, are the closest thing we have to perpetual motion at this point in our legal history. Federal and state legislative bodies are composed primarily of lawyers, who create and implement rules/regulations/laws that can be only understood by MORE lawyers. They grow like weeds, and produce their own fertilizer.

Current statistics indicate there is one lawyer for every six people in America. That ratio may not even include illegals, another "cause" that keeps many lawyers busy; finding (and/or creating) reasons why they shouldn't have to go home.

//greg//

....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-09-13          96326


I've found a different note. Many don't like seat safety switches or the PTO and the other ones they have added fore our safety. On the lawn mowers chances are it is a relative that creates the injury. Did you ever hear of someone sueing Chevy for selling the car to the idiot driver who backed over you? No, but because it is a relative they injured then of coarse it had to be the machine that was made wrong for the unattentive drivers! ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-13          96332


kyvette, the Rhino products are top notch stuff, no doubt about it. If you are looking for a good rear blade that's a good choice. Depending on budget and proposed use you might want to look at the 350 though, it's a few pounds heavier and that makes a difference if you need to really bite in, it will also stand the abuse that is part of any blades life and work.

Best of luck. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-09-13          96333


Art, it's funny, I actually use things like the PTO switch to my advantage, so do a lot of my employees. On my dedicated FMM the seat switch is how I turn it off when I have to get off to pick up debris, I just jump (relatively speaking) out of the seat and everything just shuts down. The PTO switch is right next to the key so start up is a cinch.

I also look at it as a real safety device, I have a bunch of kids around sometimes, leaving PTO's engaged makes it just that much harder for little tykes to start things.

Best of luck. ....


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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2004-09-22          97021


Art, you bring up a good point, it goes along with the special interest groups who want to make the firearms manufacturers liable for injuries or death caused by their firearms. A lot of people will not accept responsibility for their actions and you see it everyday. A parent buys his kid out of trouble and then you have an adult who's perception is, "I'll get off", and then he becomes a problem to society. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2004-09-26          97234


Murf, I understand your grievance. I used to write the Owner's/Operators manuals that go in new cars for GM, Chrysler, etc. All that stuff is in there to protect the company from litigation because it is the JUDGES, not the lawyers that allow big judgements for failing to warn people. It is referred to as "state-of-the-art", which means if your industry peers are doing a particular thing to warn/protect/comply/design/build a product---and you don't do it, "shame on you" and a big settlement to boot. The lawyers are just a conduit. And for those companies who are not self-insured it is the insurance companies who drive the verbiage in the manuals you get.

I got out of automotive and into dirt work. South of Detroit there were hundres of thousands of yards of contaminated soil (asbestos, gasoline, PCB's) being sold or given to homeowners. Many lawsuits arose out of that---and for good reason. A few months later my insurance company--out of the blue---wants to know what I do with my fill dirt (so they can raise my rates). I told them I don't handle fill dirt. The wiser homeowners now ask for certification (of cleanliness) for every load. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2004-09-27          97256


I have seen it from the corporate side--which is just as bad or worse as the consumer side as far as responsibility goes. I sat in high level meetings with the top lawyers of the biggest of the Big-3 and it turned my stomach to hear the crassness and irresponsiblilty of their approach to safety, welfare, and legality toward their customers and of their products. Case in point: this company was and is still producing an option that is illegal to operate or even have in your car in 13 states. They didn't care. In fact they thumbed their nose at the law and said they would worry about it later. They just wanted to make a profit at any cost regardless of the consequences. ....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-09-27          97260


I don't go by profession, nor color of skin or area of living. There are just some people out there I have little use for! They are the ones that won't take resposibility for there actions. They think they can do it as long as someone else can do it and when they fail it has to be someone elses fault! ....


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taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 127 Capron IL
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2004-10-20          98847


You know what todays problem is? Lack of common sense. Heck who needs common sense now with all the warning labels?! I heard of a case were some moron bought a motor home, set the cruise control and got up to make a sandwich and he crashed. He sued the motor home company... and won! What the heck???? You know why he won? because the cruise control was label auto pilot! Ok come on now, how many people believe a road vehicle will drive itslef? Whats next a sticker warning do not leave the drivers seat after setting the cruise control, you might crash and kill someone? OY VAY!

Oh to be on topic, How the heck many parts are in that box scraper? Mine have a total of 8,thats the two hitch pins, the box sraper itself and the 4 scarifying doohickeys. ....


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