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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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fahrwood
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6 Northeast Washington State
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2004-08-16          93688


Just bought a 91 kubota B1750D with a bush hog loader and rear blade. I found that i couldn't run both the front loader and the 3pt hitch at the same time and that the hitch wouldn't lift much even when the loader's not in use.
Any suggestions to make this otherwise great little tractor a stump puller? (specs say the loader should hoist 750lbs and the 3pt 400)
jlpspokane@msn.com

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2004-08-17          93693


You should be able to use the front loader and the 3 point at the same time. But the question I ask is how do you steer the tractor when you got one hand on the 3 point hydro lever and the other hand on the loader lever. Both levers are on the right side?? I used to play drums and I can't figure your trick out. The 400 pound 3 poit lift capacity is low, MY Ariens 14 hp can lift 400 on its Cat 0 3 point lift. Do you have enough hydro fluid in the resevoir???? ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-08-17          93696


If you aren't sure of the condition of oil, filter and any screens I'd change them.

I've heard of some pumps with built-in proportioning valves but the 3ph and loader won't operate simultaneously in a typical open centered system. However, if the loader valve is a single return type the loader exhaust oil will move the 3ph, but the system carries the combined weight. ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-08-17          93705


Certainly start with the fluids and filters, but from there you may want to check the tractor's hydraulic pressure relief. A lot of set ups have the loader tapped at a front hydraulic block, which means the 3-point is working off the loader valve power beyond port. If the tractor system relief valve is not functioning properly, you would notice problems with both systems. ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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buzst1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 47 Southern New Hampshire
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2004-08-17          93735


fahrwood,
If you haven't already, try tightening your toplink all the way and recheck the 3 point travel, then with the blade on the ground check to see if the loader functions properly. On many 50 series kubota's, when you set the 3pt to full up it sets off a bypass that prevents the loader from working.
If this doesn't help and you have fluid and clean filters, you probably need a bypass valve adjustment ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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fahrwood
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6 Northeast Washington State
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2004-08-17          93745


Thanks for the insight.... I'll do some looking. I'll take a look and do some fluid and filter changing/cleaning as a first step and move on from there, thanks to your input.
I see you are doing some fabrication work. As soon as i got the tractor, i started thinking of nifty things to add that might help with my rocky soil conditions... like attaching a single ripper tooth in place of the back blade. I'm a semi retired patent agent and love to mess with this kind of stuff, but will have to defer to the experience of guys with more experience to tell me i'm getting way off base. Luckly i have a nephew in law with all the welding equipment to bring some of my more sane ideas to fruition. Thanks again for the help!
Jim ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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fahrwood
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6 Northeast Washington State
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2004-08-17          93746


to all:
I REALLY appreiate all the great suggestions!
I'll look into them all and (next time i get to visit my tractor) will run through all the great tips.
Thanks again!!
Jim ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2004-09-24          97140


fahrwood -
Does your 3pt lift function at all? Many times if some contamination has passed the filter screen, it will land itself on the proportioning valve poppet and basically reduce the ability to close off when directed to. This valve is located beneath the seat frame, on right side as one sits on seat. Small matter to disassemble and clean out.

This should be a 'Be mindful' type warning to many. As we change our fluids, use a paint strainer or the like as we pour into the tractor's reservoir for refill. The first time I decided NOT to, I ended up with a boatload of small white plastic fragments from the five gallon pail in the system. Guess where it ended up...in and stuck on the 3pt proportioning valve poppets!

Let us know how you made out

-Willie H. ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-07          189956


Hi and thnx for your expertise. I have the exact problem you are referring to, however, mine only begins to have power issues when it gets fully warmed up or otherwise begins to get hot, I think. When first started it will raise the 3ph no problem at a very low idle. Latter in the day I need to rev it up to 1500 rpm or more to raise the tiller.
Can you advise how or what the problem is? ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-07          189957


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodsbod | view 189956
Hi and thnx for your expertise. I have the exact problem you are referring to, however, mine only begins to have power issues when it gets fully warme ...
....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-04-07          189958


Rodsbod,

I'm willing to bet that your tractor is filled with the wrong hydraulic fluid. It sounds to me as though you might have a problem with air bubbles in the oil, which will prevent pressure from building. This is usually due to detergents in the hydraulic oil......which shouldn't be there.

After a few hours of use, the detergents in the oil will cause a foaming action to take place. It would be impossible for your hydraulic pump to build up any pressure when attempting to compress the air contained in the foam bubbles.

Drain the hydraulic fluid. Clean the sump screen and replace the filters. Fill with an approved hydraulic fluid.

Your tractor should be filled with Kubota UDT, or Super UDT fluid. Cenex Kwiklift is a suitable replacement. These are the only fluids that should be used in your tractor.

Hope this helps.

Joel ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2014-04-07          189972


Not sure JUST how active this thread is anymore, and it has been a while. I just received a thread update.

I had the identical situation happen to me about six months ago now on one of my B5200's. It has the same rear lift as the 1550, 1750, 7100, etc.
Anyway, what mine ended up being was EXACTLY as you had described...that being I could lift while the fluid was cold, but as soon as she warmed a bit, no more action, other than downward - even at 2000 revs. Two part fix it was. The rear lift cylinder o-ring was worn out (about $10 to replace, and easy to get to etc.). The second part was, that the pump (hydraulic gear pump mounted on the right side of the engine), was finally spent. I found a replacement pump on ebay of all places, and installed it and AWAY my old girl went once again. I had put her thru ALOT of service over the years, being a 1987 model, so a little pump, (though pricey at $500 +/- at a 'bota dealer), was WELL worth the investment. I paid pennies on the dollar from ebay by comparison. I still have my B5200's and running strong! The B1750 was one of KUBOTA's best selling and lasting units as it incorporated many attributes from the x200 series earlier, and adding the power steering, "bi-turn", etc. Same loader, frame, tires/wheel size etc. as the B5200 on the like - hope you held onto it.
Best ~
Willie H ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-16          190082


Joel,
Thanks for your advise to replace the fluid and use the UTD. You mentioned air bubbles? As a matter of fact I did see some very extremely tiny bubbles in the oil on the dip stick. Would this e an indication of foaming or could it be from sucking air somewhere in the system? ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2014-04-16          190084


Rodsbod ~

Have you pulled the screen/strainer from the tranny for cleaning? What does it look like? Does it have a milky, globby coating on it? If it does, then most likely it does not have as much an air leak or suction issue as much as moisture getting in contaminating your fluid.
You mentioned earlier, that your loader works when cold, then as she warms, essentially slows down in function. This can be caused by your strainer getting clogged over, not allowing passage of fluid to pressurize your system properly. I had moisture accumulate twice USING Kubota UDT (at least that was what the dealer told me was in the pail). It ended up pressurizing the fluid moisture mix so much, it blocked off the screen, and came up out of the shifter seal in a beautiful off white foam. Then It came out of any and every breather it could find. Fun time.
I ended up removing the contaminated fluid (supposed UDT), removing the strainer, cleaning the strainer, refilling and flushing twice with new fluid until I felt the system was clean. Each time, the mix would catch on the filter screen, and little by little, I got it straightened out and clean again. Then the loader and 3pt started functioning again.

After comparing "ingredients", I purchased my fluid at Sam's Club local to me. Right, wrong, or indifferent it works, it was less costly, and it works fine and has been for several years.

I mention all this, as the tiny bubbles, may not be air, rather than moisture in the system....especially if the unit was exposed to sitting for a while or temperature extremes and changes. Just my experience.

Willie H. ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-04-16          190086


Rodsbod,

Foaming of the oil is usually caused by a combination of things, any one of which will cause minor problems. Multiple issues will compound the problem.

Moisture buildup is by far the most common problem. Cavitation, caused by plugged or partially plugged sump screens, will produce severe amounts of air bubbles in the oil.

These air bubbles will eventually float to the top and dissipate into the air, allowing your tractor to function normally when cold. After only a few minutes of operation, the entrapped air will make it impossible for your pump to develop any useful pressure.

If not addressed in a timely fashion, cavitation will eventually erode.....or eat away....the internal working parts of your hydraulic pumps.

You've already identified a foaming problem. Without spending too much time trying to figure out exactly what's causing it, the fastest remedy is to simply perform a full service on the hydraulic system.

Completely drain your hydraulic fluid. There are several drain points. Refer to your manual so that you don't miss any drain plugs. Remove and inspect/clean your sump screen.....if you have one.....then replace your hydraulic fluid filters. Fill the system with the proper fluid and you're ready to go. No matter what was causing the problem, it will have been remedied at this point.

In most cases, trying to save some money on fluids and filters ends up being a very bad idea......especially if the fluid ends up causing problems that will wear away at your hydraulic pump. Use only approved fluids and filters. It's well worth the extra few bucks that this will cost you.

Hope this helps.

Joel ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2014-04-16          190087


Rodsbod,

I forgot to address one of your questions......."could there be a leak somewhere that is allowing air to enter the system?"

Most likely not. Any leak in the pressure side will quickly make itself known. You'll see puddles on the floor, or you'll see oil running down the hoses and dripping all over your tractor.

Leaks in the pressure side should always be quickly repaired, because if the oil is allowed to escape, water and dirt will also be allowed to enter the system at that point. The return side is already open to the air, by way of case vents.

Hope this helps.

Joel
....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-04-16          190098


WillieH,

You mentioned that you had to replace your hydraulic pump. You also mentioned that you use a cheaper hydraulic fluid, without any signs of problems to this point.

Any problems that you may encounter, due to the use of an unapproved hydraulic fluid, may take YEARS to develop.

Without the proper additives, cold weather flow, heat resistance, etc.......the hydraulic fluid could have been the root cause of your pump failure.

Hope this helps.

Joel ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-16          190106


Joel,
Thanks again for your expertise. I'm fairly new to this, worked around backhoes, graders, rollers, etc... For nearly 40 years. Now retired from construction inspection/consultant I can see why those operators were so picky about their machines.
I just bought this Kubota used from a dealer here in Oregon. To say the very least, I'm less than impressed and not happy about my purchase. When it was delivered to my place, I should have known. Dirty, didn't clean it up a lick, gave him full price, etc... Hell they didn't even change the oil or anything. No warranty either. I planned on going down to the dealer and raise hell but the wife said I wouldn't get anywhere with that attitude. So I went down there and explained what was going on but that it took a couple hours before it wouldn't lift the tiller. The dealer said he will send a mechanic out next week to check it out.
Question, shouldn't the dealer go thru the tractor and check everything out before selling it? I would think so. Perhaps he will be willing to take care of his customer..... If not, what old possibly be my recourse? ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-16          190107


Joel,
I forgot to answer your question..... I have pulled the tranny screen, 3 times now. Each time there was very little debris or flakes on it. But when I had the screen out I stuck my finger inside the cavity and wiped the bottom inside of the screen hole. Metal flakes were present but not a whole bunch
....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-17          190108


Willie,
Thanks for the advise. Yes I have pulled the screen and cleaned it. 3 times now. No difference.
By the way... Is ths Waters? ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2014-04-17          190110


Rodsbod ~

I am going to throw a potentially goofy question your way - don't take offense, just trying to cover all the bases here.:-)

When you pulled the screen, and cleaned the screen and the chamber, did you clean the inner area of the screen assembly as well as the outer surface. I ask this as they can appear to be clean, but unless thoroughly inspected and soaked after they get clogged, it may take a few soakings and cleanings with cleaner and compressed air, to actually get the little screen pours completely and thoroughly clean.

Given the age of the tractor, there may have been undetected areas that have developed that may cause an air/moisture seepage into the system. This would be evident particularly around the loader valve spool seals, wher o-rings are pretty active and can offer contribution to wear and introduction to contamination of air, as well as water, such as rain, or snow melt.
As the gear pump spins, any contamination will be spun thru at incredible high rate of speed and the close tolerance of your pump gears, will braek these "bubbles" of contaminants into a gazillion tiny bubbles, and so it goes thru the system, making more, to the point where either it will cause foaming, or blockage, or both. When it does develop a restriction, say on the screen assembly, then your system is starving as your pump spins. When your pump spins WITHOUT fluid, it is essentially turning air. This scenario is referred to as pump cavitation...essentially the starvation of material flow thru the pump, in this case. Unlike hydraulic oil, by design to pressurize, air will not pressurize and consequently allows the pump to sit there spinning without the movement of material, in this case hydraulic fluid. This would be evident as you stated, that when your 1750 is cold, you have some hydraulic action, but when she warms, all bets are off. When it is cold, the fluid is thicker from settling out, changing what is called viscosity. The "thicker" the oil, the higher probabilty of being able to develop hydraulic pressure. The thinner, as she warms, the less probability of creating pressure especially with a contaminant in it, such as air, water, varying detergents, etc.

Joel ~
It was the Kubota dealer that I frequented over the years, upon where I purchased my first orange from that a) sold me the "UDT" oil that proved to be NOT UDT oil (Yes, I had it analyzed thru my then business sources). It was then that I presented it back to the Kubota dealer, and they admitted it in a back room discussion, that they prepackaged the different oil in the UDT pails. That was when I switched to a "cheaper" hydraulic oil. This new oil was/is to actual Kubota spec and works FANTASTIC. Without going into detail here, I am VERY confident that the oil that I currently use and have been using for a while now, is not the culprit for pump failure. I respect your opinion and thought, however, I know what created the failure in the pump, and what I found in the dealer, and the fluids.
The previous "supposed" UDT I am confident would have eventually caused failure of sorts, had I continued with its use in all of my orange pieces. I have moved on from that situation AND the dealer. All I can say is shame on the dealer for misrepresentation and fraud. Not all dealers are that way, but sadly, like everything else in life, "a few bad apples.....".

You are correct, some issues take a while to show/develop with use. The pump failure was due to pretty much constant use over 30 years. The aspect of potential foaming is not something that will not necessarily take a long period of time to see come about, that is especially true with a clogged screen, where the pump does in fact cavitate.

Willie H ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-17          190112


Willie,
No offense taken. To answer your question, yes I cleaned the screen after soaking it overnight in diesel fuel. I used an electric vibrating tooth brush, I no longer use for my mouth, and removed all I could. Unable to gain access to the inside of the screen as it is soldered to the large nut cap. But before I used the vibrato I noticed some debris where the screen is joined togeather. After soaking overnight and using the brush the next day, all that debris was removed, assuming I did a fairly good job of cleaning.
I'm on my way to Walmart later today. Can you advise what the oil is I should look at please? And thank you. ....

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Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-17          190113


Joel,
You will notice I have replied to Willie about the oil he uses. The reason I'm interested in this is because of the problematic issues I have with this Kubota and the possibility of a defunct dealer here in Oregon. I certainly hope not, and assuming the dealer is going to take care of this issue with him indicating he is sending out a mechanic next week, I should probably just hold onto my horses and not spend the money on anything until they decide what they will do about it. However, it was delivered with nothing, not a bit, done to the damn thing. ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
Kubota B1750 3PH does not lift well

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-04-17          190118


Rodsbod,

I agree with your plan of attack here. Since this tractor is new to you, I'd let the dealer have the first shot at figuring out the problem, as well as how to make things right with you.

From the information you've provided to this point, I'd be demanding a different tractor. It sounds to me as though this one hasn't received the best (if any) regular maintenance. Stand your ground.

Joel ....

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Rodsbod
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Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-04-24          190166


Joel & Willie,
It seems the problem has nothing to do with the screen or oil. The mechanic said it is the valve at the block connection where the power steering gets connected. Defective or worn a bit, power steering has priority.
They should make it with the 3 point having priority. ....

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2014-04-25          190174


Rodsbod ~

I just returned late last night from my Easter holiday. Sorry for keeping you in the lurch. I am glad to hear that the seller has agreed to work with you on THEIR issue that they sold you. Let's see how they make out...if you still desire the information afterwards, drop a note.

I can remember when the power steering option came about, and what you described as priority hydraulics. On the earlier models than the 1750, Orange had what was referred to as "Power Assist Steering", which was not power steering at all, but rather exactly what the title implies...assistance. From there, Kubota incorporated a REAL power steering system into the mix.
Thanks for jogging the memory and cleaning the cobwebs for me! :-)
Keep us posted on how you make out.
Best ~
Willie H. ....

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Rodsbod
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 12 Elmira
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2014-05-19          190325


Joel,
Things are going well with tractor dealer now. I met with the owner after being suggested by the Kubota Manfacturer to do so about the 3ph issue I was having. It turns out, after they picked it up to rebuild the valve where the power stearing is connected. After they rebuilt te valve, they said that didn't fix te problem that they had traced the problem to the hydraulic pump. He informed me they need to replace te pump in order to fix the problem of not lifting the 3 ph once it warmed up.
No other cost to me! So cool! I'll have a good tractor, finally. ....

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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2014-05-19          190330


Rodsbod ~

Glad to hear that there is/was resolution to your situation. from the way you write, it seems as though the dealer was hoping that the issue would either correct itself, or go unnoticed until warranty ran out, thereby leaving them free and clear of cost of repair. If it were me, and I encountered these problems, I think I would be seeking a different dealer from point of repair forward if I could not do the work myself.
Sorry for the aggravation that you have gone thru, but happy that you have found resolve! :-)

Best ~
Willie H
....

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