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5picker
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 39 PA
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2004-06-25          89330


Been reading the HST clutch or no clutch thread with interest and since there wasn't a definitive answer on clutch pedal operation for the transmission, I thought I'd start another thread but on a related subject.
Question is...I too have a TC33D HST, are there any clutches/clutch packs used inside the HST operation of the trany or is it 100 percent fluid coupled? I question this to determine if I am doing any harm to anything when I bore into a dirt pile or bog down with a heavy load in soft/muddy soil. I know you should find a range beforehand that allows maximum torque to the drivetrain but there are times when you can find yourself in a situation where you are in the wrong range and the machine simply won't pull or push. It's during those brief moments before you stop and re-range that I am wondering if I am hurting anything?

I guess all the years of seeing burned up clutch packs in an automotive type trany has me wondering???




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DRankin
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2004-06-25          89336


To the best of my knowledge, the power transmitted to your drive wheels is 100 percent fluid coupling.

There will however, be some sort of clutch to regulate your PTO output. ....


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beagle
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2004-06-25          89338


Don't know exactly about the TC33, but usually the hydro trans. is direct drive to the gear box. There is no need for a clutch between the transmission and the gear box since the drive comes from fluid power. The transmission is a variable displacement pump and a hydraulic motor in a closed loop circuit. The pressure relief in the loop is intended to protect the trans. from over torque. The is a charge pump on the system, but it is only there to make for the hydraulic losses in the closed loop.

There is a clutch between the engine and the transmission. It would be possible to over work this clutch by heavy loading, but I don't think I've heard of that happenning very often. The worst thing that usually happens from lugging a hydro is overheating the transmission. That should be avoided. ....


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DRankin
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2004-06-25          89340


Beagle: Maybe the NH's are different? I thought the swash plate inside the HST functioned in place of a clutch.

I have had three HST's now and on two of them, the only clutch I am aware of is to stop and start the PTO shafts.

On my RTV there is no clutch of any sort, just a brake, a gear shift lever and a "go" pedal. ....


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beagle
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2004-06-25          89341


Yep, could be. There are several types and variations on the Hydro. The basic principles are all the same, but everyone has to have their own way of applying them. Keeps life interesting. My memery ain't what it used to be, but I think the Kubotas are direct link. Not sure about the Blue ones.
....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-06-25          89343


I've never really thought about but I know if I step on the clutch in my 'Bota L4310HSTC the PTO and the forward motion stop.

Best of luck. ....


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corvettetim
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2004-06-25          89350


The clutch on my DX33 works as if you were to put a clutch in front of an automatic tranny. Push in the clutch and you stop moving ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-06-26          89367


I really don't know much about brands other than Deere or the older International Harvester hydro units, but I really doubt that there are any clutch packs or dry plate clutches involved. The older IHC combines had a clutch pedal on the hydro drive I think more as a panic pedal for people that had allways driven gear drive machines. The clutch on them was a valve that broke the fluid circit between the hydro pump and the hydro motor. Long as you have to have the hydro unit in neutral to shift between ranges than I'd say there is no clutch pack involved. Frank. ....


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Murf
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2004-06-28          89494


Frank, I agre with your comments, but, the info. I have says my PTO is all gear driven.

If so there must be a clutch somewhere in there.

Best of luck. ....


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beagle
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2004-06-28          89571


The clutch is in front of propeller shaft and the pto shaft. When the clutch is not engaged, both shafts are isolated from the flywheel, so there is no power to either the hydro or the pto. Since there are two front shafts off the clutch, the pto is independent of the propeller shaft, and live off the clutch shaft. ....


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hardwood
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2004-06-29          89595


Murf; Yes you're right, there has to be a clutch somewhere for the PTO. The hydro unit powers only the transmission. I don't know enough about an NH to say whether the PTO clutch is dry or wet, but thre has to be one. In my prior post I was thinking only of the transmision drive. Sory for my goof. Frank. ....


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roadrunner19
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-07-22          91665


why doesn't everybody quit guessing. On the TC29D and TC33D the clutch disc is on the flywheel and has a pressure plate just like the manual on your truck. a shaft connects to the pressure plate and is the input to your hst which has a varible displacement pump and straight thru and is geared to your pto. the transmission connects to the back of the hydro about 6 inch lower on where the fixed displacement motor for the hydro . ....


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oneace
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2004-07-22          91673


Hey roadrunner19 break any windows on tm190 latly? ....


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hardwood
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2004-07-22          91681


5picker; I've never heard of a hydro unit being anything other than 100% fluid coupled. There could be clutch packs in the gear tranny behind the hydro. Some of the older 70 and 90 series Case farm tractors with power shift had a regular clutch plate assembly on the flywheel but it only acted as a torque limiter to protect the power shifi in overload situations. The clutch pedal in the tractor was not connected to it, they were designed to slip at a set load limit. Some CUT's may use the same design for their hydros, I really don't know. Long as you use the lowest gear range for heavy drawbar loads I don't think an occasional overload will hurt anything. Frank. ....


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5picker
Join Date: May 2004
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2004-07-23          91695


Thanks everyone for their input. That pretty much answers that question and gives me some insight into another question I've been pondering in the back of my very small brain.

Given that we now know the PTO is coupled by a flywheel mounted clutch...when operating my rear PTO, the optimum engine rpm is around 2600-2800(+ -). Lets say I'm mowing with my RFM in an area the does not require maximum torque or horsepower...will it hurt anything to run at say, 2200 rpm?

I understand if I'm mowing high grass, I need to operate at PTO speed but I'm talking about a situation where let's say I just want to knock the top off to "pretty things up a bit" if the in-law's are coming.
Tim ....


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hardwood
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2004-07-23          91696


Tim, most all PTO equipment is designed to operate at it's peak performance level at 540 rpm. There's a pto mark on your tachomoter. In other words your mower won't do as good a job at 2200 rpm as it will at recommended pto speed. About the only thing I can think of right off that would be wise to operate at a lower rpm would be like a post hole auger where high spped can get you in a dangerous situation real quick. Hope this helps. Frank. ....


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beagle
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2004-07-23          91697


picker, maximum torque output of your engine is at about 2000rpm, "rated" horsepower would be at the 2600-2800rpm, depending on the engine specs. No damage to the engine will occur running at around 2000rpm's since that is really where the engine is running most efficiently. Some confusion occurs between toque and horsepower. Torque is what most think of it as, the 'work' an engine can put out (force x distance). Horsepower is a measure of how fast 'work' can be done (force x distance/time). If you go to the Kubotaengine website, there are performance curves posted for all of their engines. Not sure about NH.
Also, it isn't a good idea to run a new engine at rated rpms for extended periods of time during the break-in period. I still run my RFM at about 2000rpm engine speed. It requires that I mow in low range to get a good cut, but it's worth the extra time. I know I'm running the engine at it's peak torque output. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-23          91702


All of this info. is not to say however, that if you have a 2 speed PTO on your machine you can't 'cheat' just a little.

All of our older Kubotas were equipped with both 540 & 1000 rpm PTO settings as a lot of CUT's are still today.

It is REALLY handy for doing things that require 540 rpm, but not much power, like using a PTO-driven sprayer pump for instance. We used the 1000 rpm setting at half the recommended engine RPM's to run the pump without racing the engine for touring around with the spray rigs.

It also worked quite nicely with things like fertilizer spreaders, small water pumps, hydraulic pumps and leaf blowers.

Best of luck. ....


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beagle
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2004-07-23          91707


That would be real handy. Too bad they don't offer it any more. ....


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5picker
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2004-07-23          91709


beagle,
Sounds like you are doing exactly what I had in mind. I too noted that peak torque was in the 2000-2200 range for my engine and figured I would be doing no harm but wanted the thoughts of some others. I've got about 300 hrs. on it so I'm not doing this because I need to worry about plugging along all day at high RPM's. I also realize the mower won't be spinning at optimum grass cuttung speed but again, it's not a situation where I need it to be, nor do I feel it will harm anything on the mower side if it is run slower.

I think sometimes we tend to overlook how other related equipment performs -vs- our PTO driven equipment. I know all my push mowers, edgers and garden tractors have throttle controls on them that slow the driven componenets at the same time as engine speed decreases and they work perfectly fine slower in certain situations.

I just didn't want to get into the mindset that if I didn't "wind 'er up to PTO speed" I was going to have a PTO clutch burn up or something.

Tim ....


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Murf
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2004-07-23          91713


One point that should be made here is the design speed of gears and the driveline generally.

With full-size tractors it is a very important, but often overlooked, aspect of operating a tractor. Basically the entire driveline is designed to be run at 5mph when used with ground-engaging implements such as plows, discs, etc.

This situation came up with a township near here, they had purchased a full-size (60hp) tractor to pull a drag unit to groom the gravel roads as a way of reducing the roads maintenance budget, as opposed to constantly running a big grader for routine maintenance. The problem was they ran the tractor at full speed in high gear thinking if they groomed the roads at 15mph with a drag box, they would have double the savings, first because of the lower cost of the tractor over the grader, secondly because they could go much faster than a grader with a fixed blade can.

Everything went well until the transmission fell apart and the manufacturere refused the warranty claim saying that was abuse since it was designed, intended or built for that kind of use.

This is an extreme case mind you, but it does illustrate the hazards of operating a machine in a manner that is not it's intended use.

Best of luck. ....


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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-07-23          91738


That is a very good point Murf. WE hate to have to tell costumers they are going to have to pay for the repairs to there new tractor. That is why every one should read and understand there ops manual completely no matter how experienced you may or may not be. Every tractor is different and guidelines between the same units may change form year to year. Every thing that you need to know is in those books. If you have a question that is not answered by your book ask your dealer. Truthfully the dealer is really the only person besides a factory rep that you should trust when it come to operating your unit under the said warranty guide lines. Some of us here may be able to give general ideas but it is who is going to be doing the work on your tractor that will have the last say. Even with me being a New Holland tech I can really only speak for my store but even then I comes down to my service manager to make the last call.

....


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Canadiansarefooney
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2004-07-25          91880


Hogwash! ....


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DRankin
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2004-07-25          91888


Fooney? What the hell is a fooney? ....


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Murf
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2004-07-26          91910


Maybe it's the kind of soap he uses to wash his hogs? ....


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DRankin
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2004-07-26          91914


Wouldn't that be Foamey? Lets see...canadiansarefoamey.

I dunno, maybe it's a beer thing. ....


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Murf
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2004-07-26          91917


Ah-ha, found it!

"fooney", an olde english slang term used to describe a comical situation or person, first used by the famous english author, Macbeth........ That's FOONEY!!!!

(;-p> ....


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DRankin
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2004-07-26          91924


Oh. A term of endearment! ....


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oneace
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2004-07-26          91960


lmao!!! ....


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