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Ford 1910 hydraulic problems

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-05          19516


I have a 1985 Ford 1910 tractor. It is fitted with a 758 loader (4') and has a backhoe that attaches to the 3-point hitch.I have been experiencing hydraulic problems for the last couple of years which I have been unable to solve. Specifically, they are not as strong as when I first bought the tractor 5 years ago. The problems first started when I got a brush hog. After a day of cutting, the hydraulics would not work, no 3-point hitch, bucket or power steering. Thinking the filter (a spin on) was plugged, I replaced it. That did not fix it. Sometimes they would work, sometimes not. A short time later I heard a knocking and found the mount for the filter to be loose and thought that might have been the problem. It was broken and needed to be replaced. Did that, still no fix. I drained all the fluid (Hydramic) and replaced that. Took all the lines apart, inspected the pump. Still no good. I talked to a Ford mechanic who thought I might have been sold the wrong filter for the new mount. Got another filter and the hydraulics worked, but weren't as strong as before. I used to be able to lift the tractor with the backhoe but now can't. Just yesterday I was again using the brush hog and when done, no hydraulics. I shut off the tractor, restarted, and they worked.Today they worked in their weakened state.Any clues as to what the problem is. Also, there is a small leak in the pressure relief. I have tried replacing the o ring but it still leaks.Dave

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TomG
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2000-09-06          19517


Here's some theoretical rambling. May help, may not. I wonder what's special about the cutter. Weight on the 3ph? Length of operation? Maybe it's length of operation, and the only time the tractor is run for a long time is with the cutter. I can't speculate how weight on the 3ph would affect the problem (Spread a fine crack more, or a seal?). The suction line probably does pick up in the area of the 3ph. I guess the flow control valve could be turned off, and that might help isolate the problem.

I remember a comment about a cracked part (maybe the suction line housing on the pump) that introduced air into the pump. Perhaps air in the line, leading to cavitation, could explain the problem, and why the hydraulics come back after a rest. I realize this is pretty far-fetched, but maybe inspecting the entire suction line would help. I wonder how the oil looks when the hydraulics aren't working?

Heat is the other thing that comes to mind when I think about things that stop working after awhile, and then start working after a rest. However, I suppose you've had enough of my rambling, and so I'll stop. Please keep in mind that I'm real long on theory and real short on experience with this subject.
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JerryGoucher
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2000-09-06          19520


David,
Just a question. When you change the hydro oil, does it have small air bubbles in it?
JerryG ....

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dave piper
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2000-09-06          19521


David. Have you got the valve that controls the drop rate of the 3ph. wide open. I have had some similar problems on my 1710 when that valve was closed down to transport something. When reopened I would have to cycle everything several times to get operations back to normal. I am assuming from your post that you are running the hoe off the tractor hydraulics and not a PTO pump. ....

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Murf
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2000-09-06          19522


The problem is the by-pass or pressure-relief valve. It is there to protect the pump and everything else, including you, from the effects of too much pressure. Since it is physically impossible to compress a liquid (the whole basis of Hydraulic potential) there must be something to limit the pressure in the system. The valve is a very simple affair, basically it is a cylinder with a piston in it. There is a spring behind the piston, keeping it in such a position in the cylinder as to block the fluid's path to the return line. When a certain pressure is reached the force of the fluid exceeds that of the spring and the piston moves back, allowing the fluid into the return line and by-passing the rest of the cylinder. It is common for this valve to either 1) outright fail (usually the spring breaks), or 2) intermittently or partial stick open (usually because of debris), causing the symptoms you have described. When you shut the machine off all hydraulic pressure is released, the valve closes and everything is "normal" until the next time you exceed the pressure setting of the valve, it opens, sticks that way and you have no hydraulic power because the fluid is going straight back to the reservoir. Every machine is a little different as to location, etc. of the valve but I'm willing to bet if you replace it your problems will be over. Best of luck. ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-06          19523


Before the filter mount problem it was frothy, telling me the thing was getting air. But I haven't seen that after the repair. I just now was using the brush hog again and same problem, no hydraulics, when I got back to the barn, I shut off the tractor, fired it back up and the hydraulics worked. I checked the oil level, it was OK.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-06          19524


It may not be all the way open, I will try that. I do not ordinarily close it.

Thanks,

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-06          19525


You know, that might be it. I was thinking the other end all the time, that it wasn't getting enough oil, hence my preoccupation with the filter. I have had this valve apart, when I took the system apart, and checked it for debris, visible wear, etc. That is when I tried to replace the O-ring. There is leakage by the spring loaded valve and I have to keep a close check on the level of the fluid. Sounds expensive, but it may just be the solution. I will look into it.

Thank you all for your input and suggestions.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-06          19544


All of these things I have also thought about. One thing that gets me though, is the shut down and restart of the tractor are immediate. One of the others answered me on that and it sounds reasonable. The crack was in the mount for the filter (spin on). I replaced that. The oil was frothy before that, indicating air in the line. The mowing time is generally about 3 to 4 hours. Last two days were scorchers. I thought the oil might be thinning out too much, but restarting blew that theory. There is no leak in any seals, only in the pressure relief valve. I didn't think it was enough to rob power, but it might be. Before replacing that unit, as was also suggested, I'm going to make a test. The next time it happens, I am going to tunk on the valve casing and see if it resets. Maybe the oil was hot enough to cause it to stick open because of the metal expansion. I don't know if the tolerances are close enough for this but it is a thought. Talk about rambling.

Thanks for the post and ideas.

Dave ....

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TomG
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2000-09-07          19547


Thanks Murf. I'll add the pressure relief and then bled-down at shut-down to my rambling list of things that stop working and then start again. I know I can hear when my pressure relief valve is open. I guess a question of whether the relief valve can be heard wasn't asked. However, I don't know if a partially open valve, which couldn't be heard, might be the problem. ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-07          19570


Gentlemen,

Today I was trying to use my log splitter which runs off the tractor hydraulics. There was no power, it would not split anything, even stuff I could split with a p-tunk. The oil must be by-passing somewhere. Based on what Murf said, I would presume it to be through the PV valve. I opened the valve on the 3PH all the way, but that made no difference. Would replacing the O-ring on the valve solve the problem? The valve, spring and shims all look to be OK, the O-ring, though, I do not think is the right size. My manual does not go into any great detail on how to adjust or set this valve either. By the way, I have two boxes the oil travels through before going to the loader, remote hookup, or 3PH. One is called a diverter box and this is where I think the PV valve is located. The other looks like it only distributes to the power steering and to the diverter box.

Any more ideas?

Thanks
Dave ....

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TomG
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2000-09-08          19582


I'm trying to figure some of this stuff out from my Ford 1710 manual, and there's no guarantee that a 1910 is even similar. However, at least on the 1710, the diverter is a box located on the lower right side. It's described as a combination system relief and diverter manifold. That's where the relief valve is located. The priority control valve, which supplied the PS, isn't exactly a box and is located on the left side below the oil pump.

Here's possible some help. I haven't exactly figured out the system, but there is something described as a 'high pressure relief valve' located in the area of the 3ph, as part of the 'remote control valve.' The valve is pictured as a large plug on the side of the remote valve body. The parts for position and for draft control hitches are somewhat different.

It looks like there is a pressure relief valve as part of the 3ph that could cause problems. My 1710 has a detent at the top of the 3ph control lever. I believe it's for supplying pressure to an external remote port. Something like that may complicate what's going on as well.

Good luck with this. I guess you've used the splitter before, and the cylinder was charged before use. Splitters take a lot of oil and charging one new could take the oil level down quite a bit. That's something I probably would do--hook up a new splitter and not check the oil level after charging it.
....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-08          19586


Tom,

The tractors are alike but different. I was at the dealership yesterday looking a prices for the relief valve (whew!). They couldn't help, they don't have a service department. At the same time I was looking at the 1710 book. I have an additional block to separate the oil going to the PS and everywhere else. I don't remember seeing anything about another PR valve in the vicinity of the 3PH. I'll have to look. It does have a stop that on the lift control that if I go beyond it I can hear oil like it is going through a pressure relief. I never put the control there unless by mistake.

As for the splitter, I have used it for 5 years on this tractor and it was charged. It is a homemade affair. Even though it was slow (has a big cylinder), it still split wood, except for spongy stuff, it never did like that, but that is a design problem I think. Somewhere I'm loosing pressure on the oil system. I guess the next thing would be get a pressure tester and find out where. It is probably cheaper than the PR parts(almost $200.00 for the valves, spring, and O-ring).

Thanks again for the info.

Dave ....

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dave piper
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2000-09-08          19587


David. There is an interesting discussion on a 1910 with slow hydraulics that started on Feb 2nd.. The search feature won't bring it up, you have to go to "brands" and keep hitting "next page" to get to that date. It goes into detail about the priority valve and a quick easy fix. May be of no help but certainly worth a look. Regards, Dave. ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-08          19588


Dave,

Thanks for the information. It sounds like my problem. I will check it out.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-08          19605


Dave,

I checked out that discussion and it sounds very much like what is happening to me. Before spending a lot of money, I am going to take the two boxes apart again and use some emery on them. If something is sticking open when it shouldn't that will hopefully solve the problem. It is getting worse. Today I couldn't even pick up a bucket of dry dirt. It may be time to change the filter again. Unfortunately, everything on these tractors are made of gold, at least they cost like they are.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-10          19689


Gentlemen,

I think I have solved part of the problem, the low pressure. While at the dealership I looked at the blow up of the diverter box. When I got home and took the Pressure Relief valve out, I noticed I had put the shims in the wrong place when I had it apart before, mainly because it came apart so fast I did not see where they were and put them back wrong. The oil was bleeding through the pressure relief as a result. It appears I now have good pressure and even have the hydraulic whine. All that remains is to see if I lose it after brush hogging for a day.

I never would have looked at it again if it had not been for the guidance on this bulletin board. Thank you.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-14          19792


Well gentlemen, I still have something going on with the hydraulics. I have been running the brush hog that last few days. The longer I run it, the more hydraulics I lose. After about 2 hours the hydraulics will not work, steering is OK. Shut down and restart and the hydraulics work for about 15-20 minutes. The longer I go the less the working time until shutting down and restarting does not good at all, the steering even goes. If I let it sit for about 5 minutes, the hydraulics will come back just long enough to either raise the bucket or 3PH, then gone. If Murph is right and it is the PR sticking, why does it open in the first place? I am not using anything that would create pressure enough to open it.

This thing is driving me crazy. The last time it happened this way it took a month to get thoroughly straitened out. Does the oil get to hot to pump? Does the PTO stir it up so it is full of air? I didn't notice any on the dip stick.

Anyone out there have a clue. I took emery to everything as was suggested in the Feb 2 posts. Can the oil get hot enough to make everything expand so much it jambs up in the diverter box? I grasping at straws.

This is frustrating.

Dave ....

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TomG
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2000-09-15          19804


Sorry about your problem. I'm still mostly theory on this subject. However, here is something off the top of my head. At this stage, the problem probably has to be divided into smaller problems. The question in my mind is whether the pump isn't supplying oil or whether the oil is lost back to the reservoir in some part of the system.

Maybe somebody knows if a gauge can be hooked into the pressure line ahead of the priority valve when the hydraulics isn't working. There would be no diverter, and it sounds like that would damage a pump in a hurry. At least you could tell if the pump was working and would narrow the range of things to check.

I say ahead of the priority valve, because the power steering system has an independent return line to the reservoir. Maybe somebody knows if it's possible for the priority valve to divert enough oil to rob the rest of the system.

I suppose it's possible for oil to get hot enough to produce your problems, but you should be able to tell if the oil is excessively hot by grabbing a hydraulic line. Among other things, I think a bad pump or blocked suction line can heat up the oil.

In terms of oil, you've perhaps changed it. Hydraulic/transmission oil is almost a universal, and oil from most manufacturers will work. My Ford 1710 calls for Ford 134, or the multi-season F200 oil. Your 1910 probably calls for the same oil.
....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-15          19810


TomG,

I will attempt to answer your queries starting with the last. Yes, I have changed the oil, this last spring. I use the Pennzoil equivalent to the Ford 134. The Oil lines are hot, extremely hot, can't touch them. My log splitter used to be a self sufficient device (motor, pump, reservoir, ram, etc.) When the oil heated up in it, it would not work so well. Had to let it cool down. I don't know, but does hydraulic oil break down at high temps? If I go out and start the tractor now (after a night of rest) everything will probably work. It only happens while using the PTO with the brush hog. I've used it with a buzz saw before with no problems. I'm thinking, because the problem is gradual, that hot oil is the problem, maybe the pump can't pump it as well.

Have you ever experienced anything like this on your 1710?

Thanks for the input,

Dave ....

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Murf
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2000-09-15          19811


If you still have power steering then the hydraulic pump is working properly, the only alternative then is that a relief valve is opening. The comment you make on the temp. of the hydraulic fluid is interesting, the heat indicates friction, the friction indicates LOTS of flow (to generate the heat from friction) such as would be expected if the relief valve (usually a very small orifice) is opening. I cannot emphasize enough, check all relief valves. It is very easy to diagnose this problem, especially if you have a 'power beyond' port or remote on the tractor, merely get ($20 to buy or borrow) a 300psi max. pressure gauge and the appropriate fitting to connect it into an opening where there is pressure (such as remote, with control valve held open) then operate your bush hog while (CAREFULLY) keeping an eye on the gauge reading, it should go to 2500psi (or close to) and stay there, if it falls off much, or suddenly then the fluid is just dumping straight back to reservoir, through a relief valve. Try to get a hold of a hydraulic schematic drawing for YOUR machine, there may be several relief valves in the system. Best of luck. ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-15          19814


Thanks Murf,

Does that mean the PR valve is always open somehow? I am confused as to why it would open if I wasn't using anything to cause excess pressure. It sticking open does make complete sense if something opened it to begin with. The only thing is after a while I loose the power steering too. Yesterday I mowed for 7 1/2 hours. After about 3 hours the bucket and 3PH would not work until I shut off the tractor and started back up (indicating your comment about the PR valve resetting is happening). After about 5 1/2 hours, the power steering started to fail and stopping the tractor and restarting no longer gave me back the bucket and 3PH. I had to let it sit for about 5 to 10 minutes, then they only worked for about 2 or 3 seconds. By the end of the 7 1/2 hours, They only came back after about 10 minutes sitting and the power steering was virtually gone. Since the priority valve is in line before the PR valve, this indicates the oil was not being pumped for the power steering to fail. Hydraulics is not a hard thing to understand. Can the oil get too hot to pump?

I am going to get the gage (3000 psi). My system on the pressure side after the pump goes to the priority valve, then the diverter box, where the PR valve is, from there to the bucket, 3PH, and remote hookups. Of course the PR valve dumps back to the sump. Should I put it in line after the diverter box? That would seem the logical place.

Thanks again for your time and knowledge.

Dave ....

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David P. Freer
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2000-09-15          19819


Murf,

I came across a hydraulic schematic for my tractor. It does not have a breakdown of the priority valve but does for almost everything else. It also has a troubleshooting section. There are many things to look at, some of them what you suggested. There is only one relief valve in the system, from what I can tell. There is a relief setting on the control lever for the 3PH arms that may be out of adjustment. It shouldn't let the oil bypass and it might be. The troubleshooter also shows where to hook up a pressure gage, but I think I will go to the remote and hook up there. It will be an easy arrangement with quick connects. One question. Should I dead end the pressure side with the gage or should I make a connection so the oil can keep flowing through the hoses. It seems if I do that there will be no pressure because on side goes back through the diverter box to the reservoir. I notice that when the hoses are disconnected I get a noise that sounds like the PR valve is bypassing. Can I do this without damaging anything?

For the hot oil, the troubleshooter says one of three things could be wrong, the PR valve bypassing, plugged filter, or bad pump (one of which you said to check). I am about due to change the filter so will do that, it may help.

Just thought I'd update you. Again thanks for the help.

Dave ....

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TomG
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2000-09-16          19827


No, nothing like this has happened on my 1710. With some guilt, I realize that I'm benefiting from your problem. It's forcing me to go through the hydraulics sections of my repair manual. I am sorry about your problem, but I'm also happy it's not me, so I'll try to contribute what I can to the solution (while recognizing my limitations). Murf finished my idea, more simply than I did. If there's steering, the pump is working. It sounds like there is diminishing flow through the system for some reason. First the hydraulics stop working as the priority valve takes more oil for the steering, then the steering stops. The answer could be heat. At least I imagine that thinned oil wouldn't pump as well. However, I'm not sure why a relatively short shut down would allow the hydraulics to start working for awhile. You'd think it would take some time for the oil to cool down.

I've never had hydraulic lines that were too hot to hold, even in hydraulic intensive operations like with a backhoe. The source of heat might be a good place to start looking. I think line restrictions and bad pumps are sources of heat. I believe that open relief valves qualify as line restrictions because the oil passes through fairly small orifices. I note that a clogged filter is one version of a blocked suction line, and that causes cavitation. . Junk in the suction line causes cavitation and in pressure lines causes restrictions. Cracked housings etc. in pressure lines also provides small openings for oil. I found a piece of rubber in the drain pan when I changed oil. Some people caused problems by using Teflon tape to seal hydraulic fittings. If over-wrapped, it breaks off inside a pressure line.

The following is my basic understanding of open centred systems. This level of understanding is necessary for me to think about the problem. Hope I've got it right. Maybe these basics will help somebody. As I understand, oil flow in a neutral open centred system goes from the sump, through the suction line, is pressured by the pump, passes through the priority and diverter valves, through any external remote valves, to the control valve and back to the sump. Raising the 3ph sends oil through the remote valves before returning to the sump. I believe external remotes come after the control valve on some tractors. It comes before on my 1710, because the 3ph doesn't lift when the loader is used. I took me awhile to realize that oil flow is continuous in an open centred system. Operating a control valve simply diverts oil from the open center to a cylinder, and provides a line for oil on the other side of the cylinder to return. The oil can be heated, even though hydraulics aren't being used, because the flow is continuous. In looking at my repair manual, it does seem like there are valves in the 3ph system that could be partially open and causing heating, perhaps even a gross maladjustment, but I haven't thought it through.



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David P. Freer
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2000-09-16          19832


Tom,

Again, thanks for the input. I am pretty certain I am looking at a blocked supply line, probably from the filter. Haven't gotten a new one yet, no one open today. Today I tried things out after a 2 day cool down. Nothing at all except power steering. I took apart the priority valve and cleaned it, even though it didn't appear dirty. The poppet valve inside had some minor scoring which I took emery to. It is a fairly simple affair in there and all mechanical. I also took apart the PR valve again and inspected it. There was no scoring on it, of course it doesn't move far either. I put everything back together and there was jerky slow movement in the bucket and 3PH which stopped after a while. If I ran on low RPM's and alternately sped up and slowed down, I could get the bucket and 3PH to move on the increased RPM's only momentarily. My conclusion is that when not trying to do something, oil gets to the pump. As soon as I try to do something, all the oil immediately pumps out and there isn't a sufficient supply to replace it, so I lose hydraulic pressure. The line from the sump is clear so I'm thinking the filter is blocked. Since the power steering doesn't require much oil there is enough to steer. Does this sound plausible?

Dave ....

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TomG
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2000-09-17          19843


Yes, it sounds plausible. Most important, it sounds organized. The most important thing I found back in my tech days in the military was having an organized idea. Being able to take a problem apart into several smaller chunks and testing in a way that verifies which components work eventually finds what doesn't work.

It sure sounds easier to start by checking supply lines rather than fishing around in the 3ph looking for internal leaks. Good luck.
....

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2000-09-18          19894


Tom and Murf,

Have hydraulics working normally now. Found filter to be plugged. There were pieces of what looked to be rubber and cloth in it. I had just blown a hose on the hoe a few days prior, that could be what it was. I tested the pressure and found I have 2350 psi. I ran the mower today as well and observed no loss in hydraulics after 4 hours.

Tom FYI, in the trouble shooting section it said one possible problem could arise from the adjustment on the control lever for the 3PH. I don't know if you have a single lever or the dual control with the draft lever. If it is a single lever, there is a notch at the top of the control. If you bring your control lever against (not in) the notch, you should not hear the pressure relieve. If you do you have to adjust the lever until the relief valve stops (just stops) lifting. I have also figured out exactly how the priority valve works. If there is no pressure to open it, you get nothing beyond it, only power steering. This has been an (expensive) learning experience. The high pressure valve was not cheap (ate up all my mowing profits).

Again, thanks for all the input. I will probably not come back to this bulletin board unless I have another problem. If you have any questions for me my e-mail is dfreer@wnyweb.net.

Yours,

Dave ....

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Ford 1910 hydraulic problems

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bohawg
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20 west virginia
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2014-08-19          190958


Hey I need to ask you a question. I have a ford 1910 86 model . For some reason I'm blowing the hydraulic pump seal or it's forcing it's way through when I'm using the front end loader,, is there a check valve or something I'm needing to look for? ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
Ford 1910 hydraulic problems

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bohawg
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20 west virginia
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2014-08-19          190965


Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 19522
The problem is the by-pass or pressure-relief valve. It is there to protect the pump and everything else, including you, from the effects of too much ...
....

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