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Interchangeable Wheel Track - real need

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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-11          160967


I am indeed a new guy not only to this site, but to tractors in general. I am hoping to get some advice!

My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naccztNpDZU ). Although we have it working for military robotics, we think we can do it for small tractors as well. (here's a video illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WG4MjOzljw.

Question is, assuming we can pull this off, would anyone need it?

Could this increase your productivity?

If you all could choose what type of machine or application would be most fitting (at least to get started and prove proof of concept), what would it be?


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Interchangeable Wheel Track - real need

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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-11          160968


need the other pic too... ....

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Interchangeable Wheel Track - real need

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-03-11          160969


I see you didn't include info where you are in your avatar--safe to assume a developing country or the like other than NA or the UK? Or perhaps you are a college engineering undergrad?

When you say "my company"---I hope you don't mean "your" company's dollars invested. Even if you invetsed just a dollar. :)

These systems have been around commercially for at least 30 years that I'm aware of. Mattracks is one big US company---they even make them for ATV's, cars and trucks. You can even get them for a trailer's wheels.

Challenger makes a dedicated, huge, farm machine.

Loegering Inc. makes them for skid steers as an aftermarket installation.

All skid steer makers foreign and domestic have tracked machines. Not to mention anything that used to have steel tracks now can be bought with rubber tracks like excavators and even dozers. ....


Link:   Video

 

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Interchangeable Wheel Track - real need

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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-11          160971


Thanks for your comments, I gather from them you did not see the video. Here it is, this time on our site:

http://www.galileomobility.com/?p=369

Here's the articulated illustration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WG4MjOzljw

As you can see we are a very real company, located in Israel, and our technology is implemented in military robotics:

http://www.galileomobility.com/?p=362

Apologies for not making myself clear before. The big big difference between what we want to offer and mattracks and the like is that our platform can interchange between a wheel and track automatically or with a pull of a lever. That is you can have a machine that uses both wheels and tracks for any given job.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on possible applications, assuming we can make this as reliable and dependable as a normal track (and comparable price). ....


Link:   You Tube Video -- articulated

 

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-11          160975


I've looked at similar track systems in the past, in every case the cost was so high that it was cheaper to buy a tracked machine for those jobs.

If Mattracks was more money than buying second tracked vehicle, I can only imagine how expensive a Swiss-Army knife setup like this would be.

I know the cost of the track kit for a SUV or pickup is $30,000 and up.

But thanks for the spam anyways.

Best of luck. ....


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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-11          160976


Guys, this is not a spam - we are not advertising or selling anything - we have nothing to sell. Why is there such a negative reaction? We simply want to figure out if there would be any need for such a a system before we go and develop it. Best way to do this is to ask. Would very much appreciate constructive comments.

-Dave ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-03-11          160983


David, sometimes here spam is hard to tell from a genuine inquiry. I really don't know how your "Pull a lever" system works that takes a machine from track to non track. Perhaps you do have an idea that will work, but I think you will have to do just like any other inventor and build a prototype then test it in the real world. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2009-03-11          160985


Dave in my part of the world there is very very little track tractors used. There are none I am aware of. Only for construction equipment. Here, I would think if there is any possible beneif to meet the cost that has to be very high for such would be on combines. Running tracks in the field and then tires on the roads. Often duals are used on combines here. The thought of a tractor sitting long enough at the end of a field to turn around for a system to make the changes shown I doubt would happen. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-11          160989


Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidLevin | view 160976
Guys, this is not a spam - we are not advertising or selling anything - we have nothing to sell.


Funny, your first post contained the following statement "My company developed a technology that can interchange between a wheel and a track (see video here:......"

That sure doesn't looks like "we are not advertising or selling anything".

Irregardless, the fact of the matter is, if you need more floatation than a set of wheels can give you;

a) there are plenty of cost-effective products already out there such as over wheel tracks and duals,
b) the markets like the rice or muck-land farmers would have created it long ago,
c) there is other dedicated track drive units out there that in most cases can be bought for about the cost of 'converting' another machine, why pay the same to modify a single machine when you could have TWO for less money.

I think as a new-comer to the world of tractors you may have missed one salient point; tractors are intended for working the earth, if the ground is so soft, presumably from being saturated with water, there is very little that you could do with it. It would be too wet to work, certainly too wet to plant or harvest, and would likely result in so much damage that even going out on the land would be unthinkable.

I wish you all the success you deserve, so I'm trying to tell you, outside of some possible military uses, I can't see how it could possibly succeed.

Best of luck. ....


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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-11          160994


Thank you for your feedback.

Murf, it is many times more important to know what not to do. Your comments are therefore helpful (albeit disappointing) and we appreciate you taking the time. As far as the selling and advertising thing (and this is my last comment on that), an absolute enlightenment in this forum from this technology would cause us to spend money rather than receive money (that's why we're saying we're not selling anything). If we would invest today what it takes to make this market ready it would take 2-3 years (at least), long long after all of you forgot about this. Before we spend that money we need to know if there is an actual need out there. Having a "cool" technology is not enough. That is why we came to you.

Anyway, some people told us walk behinds would love this (would help with fatigue), or harvesters out west. Any thoughts/experience on that? ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-03-11          160996


Walkbehinds as in mowers? Surely you gest.

I got drive it home---you're about 30 years late coming to the party.

Who are these people that advised you? They're not giving you good advice. If you're paying them for consulting, fire them. Seriously.

Just so we're on the same page, please don't mistake us for some yahoos that happen to like (love) high-priced tractors and stuff. Murf in particular (if I could toot his horn) has a multi-national construction business, has a pilots license and engineering degrees. Many of us on this board, and all of us on this thread are business owners in our right---some large; some not so. Some are engineers or have engineering background. Nearly all here are farmers or have farmed. None of us though fit the stereotype of a "yahoo". Well maybe one, but Kenny knows he is (trying to keep it light here :) )

Our style may cramp yours; as your typical Americans, we shoot-from-the-hip so to speak and tell it like it is.

If you want our opinions--we won't hold back. But we don't pander and we certainly don't candy-coat.

Having worked in R&D and had a company doing same, I know that bringing ideas to the table with the expectation that this will be the next best thing since sliced bread---and then to have thrown back in your face, isn't what you expected. And no one wants to hear their new baby is ugly. From one professional to another, to be totally candid you're approaching the research phase in an amateurish way. There. I said it. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-12          161006


Jeff, your thinking like a North American again. LOL

A 'walk-behind' to the rest of the world is a 2-wheeled farm tractor, think Gravely, that is used to tend small plots, or in situations where compact/floatation is an issue.

Dave, the problem you will encounter still (IMHO) is one of pure economics, in most of South Asia for example, where an average FAMILY makes US$750 a year, it would be pretty hard to justify a machine that costs more than the family farm when it will only really replace a couple of labourers who make US$3 or US$4 a WEEK.

As for large harvesters, again the problem is economics, there's little (if any) money in agriculture as it is. TO add expensive technology to gain the same as you could get waiting two days for the sun and the wind to dry the ground enough to get a wheeled machine on it makes no sense, economic or otherwise. Besides which a harvester only collects the crop, you still need to get a parade of trucks out to it so it can periodically unload the crop as its storage hopper fills. If the ground is so wet you need tracks on the harvester, what about all the support vehicles and trailers?

Sorry, but I suspect the military is really your only market.

Best of luck. ....


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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2009-03-12          161008


In your first photo, I doubt that your replacement wheel or tread would have as much traction as the original. In your second, I'd be concerned about the small size of the bogeys because they would limit the height of an obstruction (like a curb or rock) that the tractor or construction machine could climb over.

I think that your system would have limited applications, for the reasons given. But the attraction of tractors is their versatility, and any attachment that increases this might be of interest.

But if I designd a rear-wheel track system that can be handled by one man, goes on/off easily, and is inexpensive, I'd first try to sell the plans to existing tractor makers.

Good luck, and shalom. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-03-12          161009


Murf, I thought aboot the Gravely aspect--and dismissed it for the same reason I dismissed the mower: tracks on anything that goes anywhere but straight, in loose soil, will tear up the ground when it turns.

And just because it has tracks doesn't mean you get better traction: my buddy has a "walkbehind" snow blower with rubber tracks (Craftsman?). He says it's useless and prefers the old chains-on-tire type. I realize snow/ice are differnt than soil--I'm jis' sayin' :) ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-03-12          161011


I've never driven a Cat Challenger track tractor but I have driven Deere track tractors. The construction people have gone to them for the ease of mobility down the road without tearing up the blacktop, etc. My only Deere track experience is here in eastern Iowa where row crops are the mainstay, perhaps in the big sky country out west they have been more popular. They just aren't too suited to working between rows even with the narrow track option, they tear up the endrows and leave a bit of a berm from the side push of the track during sharp turns. Doing primary tillage they are rough riding, your only cushion is the seat and your butt instead of tires that can flex a bit. So in answer to the mans question of need, we already have plenty of track options and changing back and forth from wheel to track was around in the fiftys, it just never caught on and likely wouldn't now. Frank. ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2009-03-12          161012


I was going to add that there was someone in our neighborhood in the fiftys or sixtys that put one of those add on track systems on a Ford 8 or 9N. It had a set of common car tires about halfway between the front and rear tires of the tractor that the tracks ran over on their way around the rear tires. As I remember the thing in mud the poor little Ford was overwhelmed by the power that was consumed just running the tracks thru the mud so it didn't have any power left to pull an impliment. I don't know what ever became of them or who built them etc. Frank. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-12          161015


Jeff, a snow blower is a different creature altogether, frozen ground doesn't give much bite to tracks. The concept of a track drive blower is simple, if you want to get the blower from A to B without blowing the snow in between you need to float over the snow not get stuck in it. A good friend of my FIL has one, he uses it to clear a few feet in front of his garage and a few areas (about 100' away) near his house BEFORE the big tractor-mounted rig comes in to clear his place out. He also walks it (500' ?) down to his waterfront to clear a skating area for the grandchildren. A wheeled unit couldn't travel in the deep snow, period. He would have to do probably 3 times the amount of blowing.

Frank, we still have one of those rigs, we use it for gathering Maple syrup when the spring snows stay late, and for hauling firewood out of the bush in places we don't want to take the horses.

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-03-12          161017


Yup Murf I'm fully aware of tracks on snowy ice. And like you said if you're in deep snow then tracks are it. But the caveat is once you get there and blow down to the ground you no longer have the traction the snow offered.

I have high-floation, lightweight alloy steel, over-the-tire-tracks on the skid steer. 16 inches wide. They're great for pushing snow so deep you have to make two passes. But on the last pass, if it's the least bit icy you lose traction and they start slipping sideways. LOL I was plowing a mobile home park and went to turn left. Mine's a 2-speed with a top speed of 14.5 MPH but I was doing half that. I slid sideways into the curb and about knocked myself out. Took the tracks off and I get much more traction with R4 tires. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-03-13          161027


For plowing I agree, but a blower is a different critter.

So are steel tracks on ice or frozen ground.

All thing being equal I've seen the two side-by-side and still think a tracked blower is a great machine for everything but turning a corner. Maybe your buddy's machine has all the little cleats worn off the tracks.

The guy I was talking about is nervous of falling on the ice, so he just stands still and drags behind the blower as if he was riding a sulky behind a walker mower. On the glare ice of the lake it doesn't even hesitate to drag him around, sometimes a couple of kids on skates behind him too.

Best of luck. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2009-03-13          161028


Murf, if it is hard to turn a corner, know the problem EW is having with the blower...it will not go in circles. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-03-13          161043


Murf, the tracked blower is nearly new--like only few hours on it if that. It was given to him for the same reason--it wouldn't work well. I looked at the tracks. The tracks have ribs about 3/8" wide about 2" apart. That could be the problem. And there are no boggie wheels to provide more down pressure. I gave him a bag of ATV tire ice screws but there's not enough meat in the tread to hold them. The track compound has a lot to do with it too.

Kenny: Don't make me get off this chair! I'm sure yor daddy said that a lot to ya, didn't 'e? ....


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dynex1
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2009-03-19          161251


Does any one thought of Log skidders? They always running with chains on regular wheels (actually almost all wheeled forestry equipment does)? ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-03-19          161253


The market is full of tracked options. Skidders have racks too. And some have over-the-tire tracks like my skid steer loader. ....


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