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lbrown59
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2008-04-03          152709


Show us your tractor fuel storage and transfer set up.

Heres Mine.



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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-04-03          152711


I could not get your picture open. No idea why.

I will one day take pictures, need to for many reasons but mine is fuel transfer tank (150 gallon) salvaged from a contruction company who went to fuel truck and really large tanks on a small trailer. kt ....


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kwschumm
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2008-04-03          152712


Picture a couple of six gallon yellow Diesel cans sitting side by side. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2008-04-03          152713


A lot of people spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to make something simple into something complicated, never understood that.

About the simplest thing we have to work with is gravity. If you use a very simple lift and elevate your fuel supply gravity will run it down the hose to your tractor.'

Similarly, a $5 air regulator will step the pressure from an air pig or compressor down to the point where it will quite nicely push the fuel up or over (or both) into your tank.

The big problem with any kind of permanent tank is liability, a leak can be a very expensive thing. A 5 gallon jug has no liability for the owner if used properly. A 'homebrew' fuel tank will ALWAYS be the responsibility of the owner / builder when it leaks.

Best of luck. ....


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kthompson
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2008-04-03          152715


Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 152713
The big problem with any kind of permanent tank is liability, a leak can be a very expensive thing. A 5 gallon jug has no liability for the owner if used properly. A 'homebrew' fuel tank will ALWAYS be the responsibility of the owner / builder when it leaks.Best of luck.


Murf, last Friday I went to renew farm liabilty policy. One question they asked me still had my wondering until I read your post above. "Do you store any fuel for plane, tractor and whatever else was the list." Liabilty is the issue, not the fire hazard as I was thinking. kt ....


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lbrown59
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2008-04-03          152716


Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown59 | view 152709
Show us your tractor fuel storage and transfer set up.Heres Mine.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk286/lb59/100_2303.jpg ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2008-04-03          152718


55 Gal drum with a 120v electric fuel pump and regular gas station type nozzle. Pump has an extendable draw tube that you set for the height of the drum and threads directly into the large bung hole. Drum was free (empty oil drum from work), pump / nozzle kit cost approx $200 at tractor supply at the time (5 yrs ago). I never spill a drop, it does not leak or siphon out and fueling the tractor is quick and very easy (like filling a car). The empty drum can be manually lifted onto the pickup truck for filling (its light enough) and the full drum is sealed with caps (bungs), tipped over and rolled off the truck onto a grass bank we have using two 2x12's.

I thought long and hard about how to do this one. Each method I read about had a drawback for me. In some cases the bit that "costs just a few bucks" turned out to cost substantially more once you actually priced it out and was still very inferior to the pump method. There were several methods mentioned where lifting the 55gal drum would be difficult or costly and required other lifting apparatus. Lifting and holding steady a small 5gal container was difficult for me with great opportunity for spillage while holding it above the hood for refueling. With this setup addition of additives and mixing is easy (like fuel stabilizer) as I pour the additive in to the drum and then just circulate the fuel by running the pump with the nozzle placed back into the small bung hole, it mixes throughly. I can check the fuel level at any time using a dip stick I calibrated using a 5 gal water bucket. I fill the drum with off road diesel about 3 times a year.

I have never looked back, its the perfect setup for me. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2008-04-03          152719


Ann, just a suggestion.

If you had 2 55 gal. drums you would never have to handle a full one. Take the 2nd drum to be filed, then pump (or siphon) it contents into the other one.

That way you never have to unload a full drum.

Best of luck. ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2008-04-03          152721


Mine is pretty simple, I just drive to a nearby station. No storage, no liability. I do keep a five gallon can around in case it is too cold to ride my "Baby Deere" to town. Frank. ....


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auerbach
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2008-04-03          152727


I don't have the expertise to verify this, but I've heard it from more than one presumably reliable source.

Today's diesel doesn't last like the old high-sulphur kind did, so unless you use a lot, you might not want to store it for long periods in large metal containers. Over time the cetane degrades (it loses its punch), it can harbor microorganisms that can form sludge, and of course water can condense in it. Some suppliers put additives in, but it can be hard to find this out.

I store in plastic 5-gal containers (and transfer to a Deere 2-gal leak-proof one to fill the tractor). ....


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lbrown59
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2008-04-03          152729


Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 152719
Show us your tractor fuel storage and transfer set up.Heres Mine.
[QUOTE=Murf;152719] Ann, just a suggestion.
*If you had 2 55 gal. drums you would never have to handle a full one. Take the 2nd drum to be filed, then pump (or siphon) it's contents into the other one.That way you never have to unload a full drum.Best of luck. [/QUOTE]

*One of the hoses is 13 feet long and is teed into the hose attached to the fitting on top of the drum.
I plumed it that way just to do that very thing.

Not only can I fill the drum with the 13 foot hose I can also empty cans and other containers with it.
....


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lbrown59
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2008-04-03          152730


Quote:
Originally Posted by auerbach | view 152727
Show us your tractor fuel storage and transfer set up.Heres Mine.
[QUOTE=auerbach;152727]
1*I've heard Today's diesel doesn't last like the old high-sulphur kind did, so unless you use a lot, you might not want to store it for long periods in large metal containers.
2* water can condense in it.
3* Some suppliers put additives in, but it can be hard to find this out.
4*I store fuel in plastic 5-gal containers (and transfer to a Deere 2-gal leak-proof one to fill the tractor).[/QUOTE]
1*Just because I have a 30 gallon drum don't mean I have to store lots of fuel for a long period of time.
Nothing says I can't put 5 or 10 gallon in the drum instead of filling it up.
Fact is I can still use the set up to fill my tractor with without putting anything in the drum.
2*The filter on the pump takes care of that.
3*Power Service takes care of this.
4*My set up lets me fill the tractor direct from any can.

My set up will work with what ever you keep your diesel fuel in.== L B ==
....


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lbrown59
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2008-04-03          152731


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnBrush | view 152718
Show us your tractor fuel storage and transfer set up.Heres Mine.
[QUOTE=AnnBrush;152718] 1*Pump has an extendable draw tube that you set for the height of the drum and threads directly into the large bung hole
2*the full drum is sealed with caps (bungs), tipped over and rolled off the truck onto a grass bank we have using two 2x12's.

3*55 Gal drum with a 120v electric fuel pump and regular gas station type nozzle.
4*pump / nozzle kit cost approx $200 at tractor supply at the time (5 yrs ago).
[/QUOTE]

~~~~~~~~
1*Tee an extra hose into this and you won't have to
2*Tip over and roll the drum off the truck.

3*What if you have a power outage?
I went with a 12 pump. That way I can power it from 120 or 12 volts.
This gives me several ways to power the pump instead of just one source of power.
4*My pump was 69 dollars and the nozzle was 20 bucks.



....


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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2008-04-07          152813


Went with 120V as I did not want to have to maintain / install a 12V supply near the drum - just wanted to plug it in and forget it - so far (5 years) I have never had to pump without power.

But I guess it could happen. Just in case (but not necessarily for the fuel pump) we do have a 3000W inverter that will run certain apparatus from a 12V battery - I have used it for drying my hair! From the boiler plate on the pump it should run the fuel pump in the event of an outage. ....


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AnnBrush
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Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2008-04-07          152814


Good idea on the second drum Murf - may just do that.

We have one drum for gasoline and one for diesel (both with pumps) - if we used a third drum for refilling and then siphoned that off the truck do you think the residual quart or so of diesel or gas would be problematic if we then filled up the third transport drum with a different fuel. Like if we had last used it for gas and then filled on top of it with diesel or vice versa.

Humm I'm liking this idea. Let me know what y'all think. ....


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lbrown59
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2008-04-07          152820


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnBrush | view 152814
..... if we used a third drum for refilling and then siphoned that off the truck do you think the residual quart or so of diesel or gas would be problematic if we then filled up the third transport drum with a different fuel. Like if we had last used it for gas and then filled on top of it with diesel or vice versa.....



I just read this today on another forum.
Just to be on the safe side I'd use one drum for gas and another drum for diesel.
Why not just empty the drum with your pump?
==========================================

* as an electrical engineer I feel I have to step in and set the record straight. You do not create static electricity with conductive surfaces. You create it with friction on non conductive surfaces. Think about walking across a rug and then touching something conductive or another person -snap a spark created totally from friction on non conductive surfaces.

This same kind of friction can be created by the diesel fuel rubbing on the plastic can during filling. Apparently if the can has ever been used for gas, and is swithed back and forth between diesel and gas there is a film left that is particularly prone to creating static sparks and setting off explosions. I believe ti results in static generation when the gas rubs on the diesel film if I remember right. The Consumer Product Safety Commission published a special alert on this a few years back due to some explosions.

== L B == ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-04-08          152830


I think that 'electrical engineer' should go back to school!!!

That's the biggest load of rubbish I've heard in some time. First a conductive surface won't create static, but then states a conductive liquid (diesel) will? Pick one.

Maybe he should do a little reading on how much of a problem static is in aircraft made almost exclusively from (highly conductive) aluminum!! Possibly he then has an explanation also of how lightning is possible? After all, electricity can't occur in a water-filled (conductive) cloud, and then arc to the earth through the moist (conductive) air to the earth right?

Now, back to reality!!

Ann, one point you're mis-judging is how much fuel would be left after pumping. Don't forget, an empty (or nearly so) drum isn't too heavy to be tipped over into a funnel, or a small tube used to siphon the last little bit out. But even if you only used your pump, I doubt you'd have a pint left, much less a quart. From a volume point of view you're looking at fractions of one percent. As an example, a lot of European diesel manufacturers tell you to run as much as 10% gasoline in the winter to keep the engine starting and running on non-winterized diesel fuel. Gas the same drill, I've burned a lot of 40:1 two stroke mix in 4 stroke engines, no big deal, and we are talking a mixture of probably 500:1, so it's not likely you'd even notice it.

Best of luck. ....


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AnnBrush
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Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2008-04-08          152835


In any case the drums are steel (std 55 gal oil drum). OK so the take home point is - get as much out as possible and then forget about the rest. Thanks all for the tip and the discussion. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-04-10          152888


And maybe I missed it but, with diesel (and I could be wrong) but a static discharge is different than an electrical arc if we're talking about (or aboot, eh Murf) the chances of diesel catching fire through satic electricity. Diesel has a high flash point.

As far as my storage system, I use a new take-off 60-gallon DOT-certified and approved school bus fuel tank. I welded a bung to the top of the tank for the hand pump (no power!) that goes through a spin-on filter. The filter is a dual-purpose fuel filter--it has an element inside it that swells in the presence of water. And trust me it WORKS! It will block the flow to the point you can't pump it. The tank sits on an elevated platform/skid made of mobile home frame I-beam so that I can lift it with pallet forks and set on the jobsite or on the equipment trailer. A hoop or basket handle across the top allows to grab it from the top with a machine.

Oh yeah, later when I rewelded the bung with the MIG welder, the tank still had about 15 gallons of good fuel in it. DOH! You could hear the molten metal sizzle as it hit the surface of the fuel and smoke billowing from the fuel filler neck. And inside the tank you see the metal skitter around like waterbugs on a pond.

....


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AnnBrush
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2008-04-11          152896


Quote: "later when I rewelded the bung with the MIG welder, the tank still had about 15 gallons of good fuel in it. DOH! You could hear the molten metal sizzle as it hit the surface of the fuel and smoke billowing from the fuel filler neck. And inside the tank you see the metal skitter around like aterbugs on a pond"

Dare I say it: If there had been an explosion you would have been up for a Darwin award. ....


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earthwrks
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2008-04-12          152914


Ann I have a fair amount of experience cutting/welding on fuel tanks as our family business 30 years ago was removing and installing underground fuel storage systems for bus depots and gas stations, and even some well-to-do homeowners (think: gas rationing). There was the time when dad brought home an old 10,000 gallon gas tank that had about 100 gallons of contaminated gas and water. He got about 1/3 the way around the diameter cutting it with a torch when all of a sudden a "sonic boom" (okay, explosion) that nearly knocked me backward and instantaneous jet-engine style flames shooting under pressure about 5 or 6' from the 24" manhole on the top. After the fire went out... dad decided it was best to fill it as high as possible with water.

Was it Darwin that said, "Hindsight is 20/20"? ....


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LapinFarmer
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 22 Kenmore WA
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2008-05-27          153990


Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 152830
I think that 'electrical engineer' should go back to school!!!That's the biggest load of rubbish I've heard in some time. First a conductive surface won't create static, but then states a conductive liquid (diesel) will? Pick one.Maybe he should do a little reading on how much of a problem static is in aircraft made almost exclusively from (highly conductive) aluminum!! Possibly he then has an explanation also of how lightning is possible? After all, electricity can't occur in a water-filled (conductive) cloud, and then arc to the earth through the moist (conductive) air to the earth right?Now, back to reality!! .......


Murf - as another electrical engineer I think you should stick to stuff you know - tractors - and leave the electrical theory alone.

Diesel and gasoline are NOT considered very conductive, and neither is (pure) water (you need to add salt or something to make it really conduct - the principle behind the conductivity meter I made in high-school for my darkroom). Air however is a good insulator.

So yes, you can produce a static charge by pumping or moving diesel or gas, and yes, lightning is caused by static charges building up on clouds, although you can also get so called "dry" or "heat" lightning from moving air masses with no thunderclouds, so what you really need are two masses of air moving past each other with sufficient velocity and/or different properties (humidity, temperature, density) to cause electrons to build up in one air mass vs the other (or vs the ground).

Both diesel and gas are considered "static accumulating fuels" by ISGOTT (the tanker ship people). See link below for some details and scary stories about fires and explosions on board ships from fuel pumping, or from just washing fuel tanks with water or steam!

So yes, water can accumulate or generate a static charge, as can clouds and diesel fuel. Mixes (gas + diesel, gas+oil, water+gas, etc) are even more vulnerable.

You also want to avoid using a plastic funnel for gas. The UL listed fuel funnels are all metal - the plastic fuel funnels won't be UL listed. Yes, I know the plastic gas cans have plastic tubes or spouts in them and I used one myself yesterday to fill the mower. Hey, but I was wearing safety glasses :-)

....


Link:   Static Electicity Discharge Hazards on Ships

 

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LapinFarmer
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Posts: 22 Kenmore WA
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2008-05-27          153991


For my diesel storage, I have a blue 55 gallon drum with a hand-operated pump. Yesterday I needed exactly 30 pumps to completely fill my 7.5 gallon tank from "E" to "F" (very "F" - it nearly ran over when I drained the last bit out of the hose). So I don't feel a need for an electric pump.

When empty I drive the tank to the filling station in the pickup and when I get home I move the full tank with my FEL (using some wood blocks to protect the drum from dents). Even full it is possible for one or two people to roll it a few feet, say from the pickup bed into the FEL bucket.

We have an air bleed on the small bung made from some garden sprinkler parts and a padlock on the pump handle to keep kids from playing with it. I add stabilizer to each new tank and use the pump to mix - just pump back into the tank via the smaller bung to circulate. One 50 gallon-or-so fill lasts me about 10 months, winter and summer. I also have a couple 5 gallon yellow cans to supplement if the drum runs empty.

Oh - I tried some bio-diesel a couple years ago and it gelled in the fuel filter during the winter. I shoulda probably blended it with gas or regular diesel, but for now I don't want to deal with that hassle or risk having the tractor stalled out again. It worked OK during the warmer weather though. ....


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Murf
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Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-05-27          153994


LF, I stand by my words, and I think if you re-read them slowly you will too.

I said that the 'electrical engineer' contradicted HIMSELF in several instances. I did not argue the point, merely pointed out HIS own inconsistencies.

I know all about static in fuels, and how it can be generated and discharged, safely or otherwise, both as an Engineer and as a pilot.

BTW, the ISGOTT guidelines are for the loading and unloading of tankers, this is hardly the same thing. There are lots of instances where you can generate or prevent static merely by changing the handling rates. In this case they speak about preventing it by transferring fluids at rates of less than a meter a second in immense lines.

A 5 gallon Jerry can is hardly the same thing.

Best of luck.
....


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