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Kubota 7510 HST versus DT

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triplebogey
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3 Houston, TX
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2007-11-04          147719


I am looking to buy my first compact tractor. I have researched what I need and I feel the 7510 with a loader and box blade will be correct for me. Beyond the convienence of the HST, are there and other considerations for the HST over the DT or are there better reasons for the DT if you do not mind shifting gears?
Thank you!!!

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-11-04          147720


If you haven't done so yet, might I suggest test driving both? HST is smooth, basically trouble-free to use and maintain. And the biggest thing for me is it's so easy to operate making chores, well almost fun. I use mine commercially so speed is critical to me. And by that I mean I can go back and forth seamlessly when brushhogging under trees without taking my eye off the rear to see what gear I need to be in. To me HST is the next best thing to sliced bread. I'll never go back to a gear tranny. Oh yeah, and HST is great for infinite ground speed if you're mowing or rototilling. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2007-11-04          147721


HST has infinite speed control, which is nice for maneuvering in close quarters and for loader work, pallet work, etc. but you lose a couple of PTO hp. The gear transmissions can pull a bit harder for heavy soil work (plowing, etc). HSTs are probably easier to resell. If your family will be using it the HST is more friendly. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-11-04          147722


Go for the gears, it's just more like a real tractor. That is of course a personal opinion, I've driven hydros but they just never gave me that solid feel of gears. I don't know the cost difference of a Kubota, but a Deere is around 800 to 1,000. dollars higher for the hydro. I've sold and traded Deere compacts with 12/12 reversers, (gear drive), and never had any hesitation on the part of the buyer. I can see EW getting the helmet on already. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2007-11-04          147724


I'd go for the HST unless the 7510 has the grossly oversized Kubota treadle pedal, which is all the reason one would need to choose the DT instead. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2007-11-04          147734


You really need to demo the thing. Not just a couple of minutes either. Spend about an hour on each type if you can.

I have owned both types and there are advantages to each model. One thing I will tell you though, if you are going to be working very close to buildings (such as your house) you are far more likely to put an ding the siding or break a window with the gear tranny. ....

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2007-11-05          147737


Get the HST. I have used both extensively and I much prefer the HST. It just seems like you are never in the right gear with a DT and always in the "right gear" with an HST.

Brian ....

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Kubota 7510 HST versus DT

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2007-11-05          147738


Upon further review....

Your question is a matter of preference....not unlike the difference between a Kubota or Deere. So my previous definitive answer was a bit overbearing. All I can say is after using both, the HST on a BX series and the gear on a L series, I much prefer the HST. Mark's previous advice of using both if you can is solid advice.

Brian ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-11-05          147740


Perhaps I should explain a bit my preference for gear drives. First as I said gears just have a solid feel to me, and I feel much more in control using a clutch pedal to inch up to semething than a hydro pedal. I have and still do run farm tractors since I was a kid that always had the clutch on the left and the two brake pedals on the right. We have all had panic situations where instinct acted before your thoughts could and you hit the clutch with your left foot and the brakes with your right foot. So to moderate my first reply a bit, having something with controls that are fimilliar could be a life saver, it all depends on what you are used to and comfortable with. Frank. ....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-11-05          147743


I have two tractors through my work. Both were givin to me brand new about two years ago. Both John Deere. One is a 50 HP geared, the other a 27 HP HST. The bigger tractor is a beast and when it comes to moving a pile of rock can get more done in a shorter period of time- but I don't enjoy doing it. I'll take the smaller HST anyday of the week because it's a blast to operate. And, my knees don't hurt at the end of the day. Also, I dont think that anybody as mentioned braking. On my HST, I very rarely use my brakes- only a couple of times over 100 hours. The machine does the slowing down for you when you tell the fluid to stop flowing. In a couple of years I will be buying myself a tractor- I dont know exactly what size, and I don't know what make- but it will have 4 wheel drive and it will have a hydrostatic transmission. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-11-05          147746


You're right about braking and that is part of the majic of a hydro. You can go back and forth without ever braking and stopping to shift. You'll change direction as quick as your pedal foot can go.

And Franky,---oh boy! here we go--- you may think you are quicker with a gear in close-quarter situtaions, but I doubt it (yup, me gots my helmet on). The biggest reason is reaction time. You have to jump on the clutch AND the brake at the same time---you lose precious time and distance there. On a hydro your foot is already on the pedal and thusly you have very minimal time returning to neutral or reversing.

I was going to mention confidence level or operator (in)experience, or even competence level. But hands-down, a hydro has a gear beat for accuracy and inching-under-power; a gear can't inch under power.

Lemme have it Franky! I'm r-e-a-d-y! ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2007-11-05          147752


I have a larger tractor with manual and like that for field use. Better than HST for setting spends for such as spraying or spreading where you must use steady ground speed. (Manual is easy on ground speed as at "X" rpm in "X" gear you get "X" MPH. Due to pedal on HST that is not possible.) Other than that, I really prefer the HST trans. One point not mentioned or I missed, if you do any over the shoulder work and that causes you to sit twisted in the seat, the clutch can be very hard to find in an emergency. I can sit sideways on my smaller tractor with HST for such work. Oh yeah, no seat belt, no helmet, no care for safety makes me think of EW. Living dangerous, just in low range! The only other advantage I know of a manual trans is something someone touched on as advantage to HST and that is the brakes. You can use the brakes to make even 360 degree turns with manual trans, not very likely with HST. My thoughts, you will be using this in your yard, more than likely you will like the HST better. Sharp turns are not a friend to your lawn. HST beats manual for cutting grass hands down as you are able to lift your foot to slow for a turn and then right back on it for the straight shot, you know, like oval track racing. The suggestion to try each is still great advice if possible. kt ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2007-11-05          147756


Around here if you are shopping for a B7510 you won't see any gear machines on the dealers lots, almost 100% HST.

Art White can chime in here with the actual percentage of B7510's he has sold with Gear Tranny.

Now that could be a plus in some perverse ways for buying a gear. I found when I sold my 1996 Honda Accord EX that since only 3% of that model were sold with a 5 speed manual, that a one off buyer that wanted a stick traveled over 60 miles to see and buy mine at a good price.

That said I have hydro and I would never even consider a gear after having a gear tractor prior to this B7610 HST I have now.
....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-11-05          147765


Kenny, I can use my left cutting brake on the hydro IF I use the cruise control. The right pedal defeats the cruise control when depressed.

Kenny was that "the old math" you're talking about? X" rpm in "X" gear you get "X" MPH should be "x" RPM in "y" gear get "z" MPH. Otherwise, using your math you get zero.

But I'm jis' sayin' ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2007-11-05          147767


For open field work I would seriously consider a gear machine too.

I still miss my 4100 Gear for some situations..... but not when I am using the backhoe or doing loader work. ....

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Kubota 7510 HST versus DT

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triplebogey
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3 Houston, TX
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2007-11-05          147784


Thank all of you for your help!!!!! I bought a 7510 HST today instead of the DT. Everone's advice was useful and went into my decision. Ultimately, the ease of work with a loader, backing up and going forward as well as the looking backward (pulling a brush cutter) with the HST made the difference. The price difference was $500. ....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 269 Westminster, Texas
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2007-11-05          147787


$500? That sounds pretty good. I have checked Kioti, JD, and Branson and the price difference is alway at least $1000. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-11-05          147798


EW; I win a few I loose a few, not many but a few. ....

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2007-11-05          147800


Frank,

You will be happy with your HST. Most of us use these machines in lots of stop and go activity and for that use, nothing beats an HST. I too grew up using gear tractors for field use, and really wondered if I would like the HST, but I have never looked back!

You will find it also useful when you are easing down a slope very slowly, you can keep a little pressure on the back pedal and ease down as slow and as in control as you would like...you just can't do that with a gear machine.

Brian ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-06          147806


Bvance; When I said I win a few I loose a few I meant I was out voted on Triplebogie's question. If I were buying a new tractor tomorrow it would be a 12/12 reverser hands down. I've ran hydro drive combines since they were introduced in the late 1960's, that was a perfect situation for hydros, all combines today are hydros. I lost my intrest in hydro drive tractors when International Harvester brought out the 656 and the 1026 hydro drive tractors in the late 60's or early 70's. I never drove a 1026, but we had a 656 hydro in the family. It was a great baler tractor with the infinite speed so long as someone drove it that knew better than to shove the speed control lever quickly one way or the other and throw the man off the hayrack that was loading bales. Finally for that reason we quit using it unless the driver was a VERY seasoned operator. It was in the family for probably ten years till my uncle who actually owned it traded it for a gear drive. Even in those days when gasoline was almost free compared to today my uncle quit using it for drawbar work because of it's thirst for fuel compared to a gear drive. Far as I remember they were just as dependable as a gear drive, but just too fuel hungry. There are still some of them around. Every tractor manufacturer today makes a pitch for their infinitely variable speed drive transmission. They are not a hydro, they are a gear drive using using a hydraulic motor or motors to control the speed variation, so an entirely different animal than a hydro. I've driven them, they drive just like a hydro. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-11-06          147809


Frank if that is your definition of a hydro then my blue isn't a hydro either (BTW, I agree with you). My backhoe is nearly a hydro as it drives through a gear reduction transfer case then to the rear axle differential.

But you are right, these machines all use a gear transmission to give a range of speeds and torque.

But not to muddy the waters, I'd be happy if we call them hydros anyway--okay "Mr. Butthead"? ....

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Art White
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2007-11-06          147812



I don't think that Frank will change his mind on his gear drives! He did get to work with one of the first hydro farm tractor models and there were some improvements to them even after they got started in the sixties! There were farmers that for the jobs they had they saved them time and money to operate them over gear drives. Interesting enough, the other day I was riding with a young fellow who could downshift all the way through the gears to save his brakes! I always thought that it was cheaper to replace the brakes then the clutch but we all have our thoughts and ideas!

The sales figures do show that the hydro is well worth it vs the gear in this size tractor. We don't stock the gearshift units at all. I'd say if the hydro cost one thousand at purchase time, it would be worth two thousand at selling on the average tractor in this size. ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-06          147813


EW; My helmet is on so here we go. Yes your blue is a true hydro, meaning that all the torque of the engine is transfered by fluid from the hydrostat pump to the hydrostat motor then on to the gear reduction system for the propulsion of your tractor. The new IVT transmission that all the builders of full size farm tractors are pushing is a realivly simple planetary gear drive system using hydraulic motors to change the ratio of the planitaries while under load that has lots less parts than a conventional gear drive power shift. So the power does transfer thru gears not fluid. So far I've not heard of an IVT beong used in a compact. Keep that blue purrin. Frank. ....

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Kubota 7510 HST versus DT

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2007-11-06          147819


Hardwood, I am lost as you give the design of the trans but KEEP EW honest. I have an extra helment if you need one.

EW, you may be right but I do know for some work the RPM's is the number required due to PTO work. Then you select the gear to get the MPH or feet per hour as the case may be you want. I will trust you with the ABC's of the math. Good for me Kubota has decals on my GEAR tractor. :) ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-06          147821


Kthompson; You mention not knowing your true ground speed with a hydro drive tractor for operations such as crop spraying where you really do need to know the true speed. The Farmall 656 hydro tractor I refered to has a mechanical cable driven speedometer which is close, but not really close enough for precise application. I don't know if any compact tractors offer a doppler gun type speedometer like most all farm tractors use today, but one could likely be adapted to a compact by someone more talented than me with electronics. That would take the guesswork out of your spraying. OK, now just so EW don't start calling me fathead. I may need your extra helmet, I've got plenty of cushin from the neck down, but my head is a bit tender. Frank. ....

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kthompson
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2007-11-06          147823


Hardwood, I suspect if you will take EW on with "knowledge" he will abort.

I have been able to come close enough with the HST for some spraying such as round up that has a wide tolerance range and for somethings such as broadcasting where you were able to run back over it if need be but to keep a certain ground speed and make turns and such...I am not that talented unless it just happens to be with full forward pedal position.

Of course for spraying guess you could use a ground driven pump and that might work. I only use PTO pumps. kt ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147831


(sniffle, sniffle) Guys, if I (sniffle) had feelings (sniffle) that WOULD have hurt ;).

Anywho...for those that want an effective ground speed indicator a.k.a. "speedometer", you may want to consider adapting a bicycle speedometer like I did to both my ATV and a dump truck that I couldn't find speedo parts for. Basically it's a small magnet the size of a button glued to the inside of the wheel and a small pickup sensor about the same size mounted on a bracket. The computer readout is about the size of a big pack of chewing gum. Cost is about $28. It is custom calibrated to each vehicle, so if you change tire sizes you can recalibrate it easily. ....

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triplebogey
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2007-11-06          147834


What a great idea....do you know the name of the manufacture or where you can buy that type of bike speedometer???
Thanks ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147835


Sorry I don't have it nearby, but if you call a local bicycle shop that carries electronic bike speedometers they should be able to help you. If I recall correctly---been a few years---you want one that has a range of calibration that is about the same size of wheel on your CUT or whatever you mount it on---that will make the calculations easier. And to be sure it's calibrated right have someone with a known good speedo drive along side.

I have tall full-size truck tires on the truck so my choice was limited. You may have a hard time trying to communicate the idea or principle to the bike people. I got a "you wanna do whaaaat with this?". It took several iterations to describe it to 'em but I got-R-did. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147837


Okay Franky-pooh--git yur helmet on!

Using your last definition of a true hydro, then that would make an automatic transmission a tue hydro, right?

To me, and we have these discussions before, so I'm pullin' this outta my you-know-what, a true hydrao does not have a gear reduction. Instead it takes engine mechanical rotating power, converts it to fluid pressure via a varibale displacement pump then to a fixed displacement motor which changes it back to mechanical.
An example of this would be a zero-turn mower

But that's just one (informed) guy's opinion. tehehehehe ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-06          147838


EW: This is startiong to get to be fun, so I'll dump most of the whole load this time. Automatic transmisssion in a car?? Yes the power is transfered by fluid from the engine to the reduction gears behind the torque converter by fluid being in simple terms thrown from one impeller to the next to create a friction free clutch that allows you to stop at a stop sigh without taking the car put of gear. When you step on the gas the impeller driven by the engine spins faster throwing the fluid harder at the recieveng impeller causing it to spin the transmission. So remotely like a hydro in that the torque of the engine is transfered by fluid to the transmission. You speak of a true hydrostat drive as not having any reduction gears between the hydrostat motor and the drive wheels, correct? I guess that would be possible, but the size of the hydro motor in the hub of the wheel would have to be massived to stand the pressures of super slow speed, super high pressures. We've all seen the hydrostatic drive high-boy sprayers with the hydrostat motors in the wheel hubs, but even those have a planetary gearset in the hub to reduce the speed of the motor. Wowzer, I'm exhausted, I think I'll have to rest up a while and let my brain recharge a bit. Oh by the way EW what does the word "iterations" mean? We never got much past four letter words when I went to school. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147840


Frank, the motor wouldn't have to be massive nor the pressures be high. The permanent angle of the swash plate in the motor could be, in theory, made adjustable so that if the pump were in one position the motor could be in another depending on input torque, speed drag, etc. Then ther's the number and size of pistons making pressure against the swash plate. The restriction on typical hydro systems is a. the number and size of pistons, input speed together combined with the same set of conditions at the motor limit the speed and torque.

BTW a few years ago in one of my construction equipment trade magazines there was a company that was advertising a (fully? true?) hydrostatic drive system for semi tractors! They would take your truck and modify it for $30,000. Looked pretty cool. I'll see if I can find it on the web. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147841


Frank: Iterations means the act of repeating. And who says you teach an ol' dawg new tricks :)

Time for a hug Frank? ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-06          147845


EW; I just finished lunch so between brain cell overload and the hard work of lifting the fork to my mouth I need a nap. Sorry I'm not a hugger, but lets take a time out, take the helmets off till we find another subject to disagree on. And please lets not be iterationing all afternoon here. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-06          147846


Frank---helmet time!

In case you didn't believe me, here's the link to the fully, true hydrostatic drive system used in semi-trucks made by SuperDrive in Ohio. According the article it replaces the transmission and drive shafts. Very informative article.

Let me know what you think about it---duh--I know you will anyway! ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-11-06          147849


The helmets are off on this one. That is an interesting concept. Now let's say that Mack, Peterbilt, or any truck manufacturer made this a factory option where you were eliminating the cost of the conventional drivetrain from the flywheel to the differentials, the cost would have to be significantly lower. The same labor that would install the conventional drive train could be used to install the hydto drive. Humm. Oh, I did notice in their spiel that the letters CVT are used a couple times, that shouldn't be confused with the mechanical CVY's in farm tractors, again a totally differnt animal. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-11-06          147857


Did you read the entire article? Cool huh?
I noticed that "CVT" too. But I feel it might be appropriate in this instance to get the concept across to someone not familar with hydrostatic drives. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7209 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-11-06          147861


This is not necessarily a new concept, it's just that now with fuel prices the way they are, etc., people are looking at every possible angle to maximize efficiencies.

I recall watching a show on TV (Discovery I believe) about the trucking industry in it's infancy of cross country hauling, in order to save on equipment and fuel the trucking companies had yards at the bottom of each side of a mountain range, a truck with a small engine would drop the trailers at the bottom for a bigger power truck to pull it up & over the mountain where it got dropped for another small power unit to pick it up and keep going.

Best of luck. ....

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kubman300
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4 west virginia
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2007-11-15          148315


sir,
I sell kubota's for a living and I am nowhere close to you so take this advice to the bank because I live to far away to sell you a tractor. Go with the hst all the way. reason 1: a hst model over a dt with about 50 or 60 percent more efficient. because that tractor does not have a syncronized transmission so you have to come to a complete stop to change gears.
reason 2 while using the front loader you need to have one hand free for the hydraulic lever unfortunatly you need on to shift gears, thats ok if the two levers were not on the same side of machine.
reason 3 we have less problems out of the hst models because there is no friction between gears because its hydraulicly operated. customer ignorance and customer abuse is the major problem with todays tractor buyers.
reason 4 if you decide later on down the road you want to put a belly mower on it the hst is so much smoother mowing your lawn ecspecially mowing in corners which require backing up.
reason 4 they are safer, they hold thierselves back on a hill so if you have to start or stop on a hill you dont have fool with the clutch and depend on the brakes to hold you on the hill.

happy tractor shopping ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2007-11-15          148316


kubman, so there are pumpkins in WV? At least that I call my Orange. I tell the "GREEN" people when your's matures it will turn Orange also. Glad you are here. kt ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-11-16          148328


Kubman; Welcome to the site, I have a brother inlaw who has a Kubota hydro that wouldn't give my Deere 12/12 shed room, yet, but we still claim hom anyhow. Sooner or later he will have a gear drive when he grows tired of the "Oil Job". Kthompson: Same brother in law says my Deere is painted green so it can hide in the grass while the Kubotas go past. Enjoy what ever you drive. Frank. PS, lets not stirr EW up again over the hydro thing, I just got him calmed down. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2007-11-16          148358


hardwood,
I agree with you totally. Enjoy what you drive. I do like the hiding in the grass line. Guess the Kubota's and Kioti's use the pumpkin patch.For an ag tractor the green to me has to be the best color. Did not say the best tractor but there do bring in a lot of crop. As to EW being stirred up...

One real advantage I have found with the Orange it is a much more visible paint for on the road and in the woods. Really any where but those two are the places safety can so much depend on being seen quickly. kt ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-11-16          148365


Frank, Frank, Frank. tisk, tisk. WhadamIgonnawithyou?

Ah-ha! Hey Franky... you like huntin'?
Wanna go wit' me sometime?

Don't botha bring yers 'doh tehehe ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-11-17          148369


EW, Sounds like you used to take the girls on a "Snipe Hunt" too when you were a kid. So, no I won't hold the burlap bag out in the woods somewhere and wait for you to drive the "Snipes" my way for me to catch one. What is a snipe anywhay? You really do need me around to keep you up to date on the latest, and also to just be a general PIA. For example your hydro drives may be closer to being extinct than you realize. I have a good friend who works in the R/D dept. of a good sized equipment co. who tells me that their major thrust of reaeach is now going toward totally eliminating any mechaniocal drives. She says their long term goal is to copy the railroad locomotive drive system. She also said they allready have several test units in the field. No oil needed. Frank. ....

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kubman300
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4 west virginia
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2007-11-17          148370


hardwood,
That really makes no sense at all locomotives are all mechanical drives and if they where trying to get rid of oil then every manufaturer would not try to make every machine from a lawn tractor to 994 cat wheel loaders to d10 dozer hydros. ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2007-11-17          148371


Kub,

I think Hardwood is just having some fun with EW. Those two love the dialogue ;)

Dennis ....

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earthwrks
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2007-11-17          148372


All the love aside, I think what Frank is getting at (unbeknownst to him that he's is in favor of hydros) is that locomotives (I'm aware of) use a diesel engine to drive a generator which the drives an electric motor(s) albiet through a drive train. Maybe Frank, pun intended, got his wires crossed and was really thinking of hydros and not purely electric.

That said, this goes back to my post here about semi trucks using a hydrostatic system to replace the transmission. And to extrapolate that, into mainstream Ag equipment doing away with gear transmissions.

I'm thinking that if we were having this conversation a hundred years ago, Frank would have been saying vehicles of the future would be riding on wood and steel wheels and be steam-powered and always will be.

Frank, your serve. ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-17          148374


Kubman and EW; Nope, serious as an undertaker about the all electric drive from the generator to the wheel motors lie a locomotive"No oil needed", is the almost total elimination of lubricants required by generators and electric slave motors compared to the thirty or more gallons of oil in every farm tractor transmission regardless of gear drive, IVT, or hydrostat. The lady I speak of tells me the disposal of all that transmission fluid is also a factor in their electric drive research. And no EW, you aren't going to get me to convert to hydros. But EW another issue, I do think we should all contact our folks in government and demand rubber roads and cement wheels on the cars. Frank. ....

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