Go BottomPressure washer question
 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia 
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2006-08-30 133807
Tractor Pointers;
I have borrowed a friend's pressure washer and have a question about the water supply. It is not covered in the manuals that came with it. Do you have to use a pressurized (i.e. garden hose) water supply, or will the pump draw water from a barrel? Or perhaps a little gravity flow from a barrel. The pump specs say inlet pressure should be "flooded to 75 psi". I'm thinking that means if the pump is primed and the inlet hose will flow the required amount (depends on the model of pump, but given as 3-4 gpm) the pump will pull in water on its own.
The pressure washer is a nice one, 4000 psi CAT pump and Honda engine. The owner of it doesn't know if it is safe for the pump or not.
I need to clean up the tractor up at the farm, no water supply up there. Tractor is too big and heavy for my trailer.
Thanks,
Bill
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2006-08-30 133808
I'm pretty sure they require a pressurized supply. The supply must also be sufficent to deliver the amount of water required by the washer. High flow washers will take IIRC around 4 GPM, lesser washers require 3 gpm or so. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-08-30 133809
Mea Culpa, I'm wrong. The mobile auto detail guys use tanks all the time. Here's a link to a kit that a company sells but there's not much to it. ....
Link: Water tank kit
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-08-30 133813
Bill, I suspect the term ""flooded to 75 psi" is a result of literally translating something from an Asian language into English with no regard for grammar.
I believe they mean it must be supplied with water, at a pressure of up to 75 psi. The inlet pressure has nothing to do with outlet pressure.
The volume of water is the only crtitical factor, if the pump output is 4 gpm, then you must be able to supply that much to it, or it will cavitate.
We routinely supply ours with either a trash pump or tank. If it's a tank feed we keep the tank up on the truck and put the pressure washer on the ground behind it to allow the head of water to help gravity a little.
BTW, unless you have a big tank, don't get fussy about getting stuff perfectly clean, a decent sized pressure washer can go through a lot of water fast!!
Best of luck. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-08-30 133814
Thanks, guys.
What I'm wondering is will the pump intake "suck" the (for instance) 4 gpm if it is available, or would the gravity flow need to be 4 gpm naturally?
I would just leave the 55-gallon barrel on the pickup, have the outlet at the bottom of the barrel, and have the pressure washer on the ground and downhill...maybe 4 vertical feet difference.
If the hose between the pump and the barrel doesn't collapse, and the pump is primed, I don't see why it wouldn't just draw as much water as it needs, within reason.
But then I don't know that much about pumps.
Bill ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-08-30 133816
Sounds like a simple enough question.
Put the barrel in the truck with a 5 gallon (for a margin of safety) under the drain line and see if the pail fills in less than 60 seconds....
Sounds marginally more exciting than watching grass grow. LOL.
BTW, the intake hose will not be sucked flat or collapse on a pressure washer if you use a garden hose, the plastic or rubber is stiff enough on a hose of that diameter to prevent it. But you do need to be carefull that it is not kinked, since there will be no pressure to the water to force itself past it.
If you're concerened about it, you can always rig up an air line to pressurize the water tank to help push the water to the pump, or elevate the tank higher, water weighs 8.34 pounds, so every foot you can raise it will be a big help.
est of luck. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-08-30 133822
Bill, I don't know if this will help or not but out of curiousity I emailed pressurewashersdirect with this question and here is their response:
Thanks for your email. Unfortunately, we do not offer "Mobile" Pressure Washers which are typically considered Commercial Grades with self feeding pumps to feed from wells, tanks, lakes, etc. The only pressure washers that we carry, that offer you the "option" to draw water from a standing source such as a well, tank, lake, etc., would be Karcher. Their pumps are designed to be able to pull water, however, an accessory is required. The unit itself requires at least 45 PSI intake as it stands. The accessory that is required is a suction hose, which I'm sorry to say we do not offer currently on our website. You will need to order that part directly thru Karcher or one of their other distributors that sell Karcher Parts & Accessories. Before deciding to purchase however, I suggest you call Karcher directly and get specifics on how this system works and if it will meet your needs. You can reach them at 1-800-537-4129. All other pressure washer brands require at least 45 PSI intake to operate.
....
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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY 
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2006-08-30 133827
Interesting info Ken - that would have been my answer - that you need a pressurized source. ....
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-30 133829
None of the pressure washers I have (up to 3000 psi) can suck water at all. The pistons are ceramic inside the pump, and the owner's manual says to never run the pump without having water pressure first. Otherwise, the pistons will crack since they're not being cooled and more importantly, lubricated by the water. I have a Jenny-brand steam cleaner that has a reciprocating piston pump that doesn't use all that much water since it first fills up a reservoir. I thought I could run a garden hose from a caged/palletized, 375-gallon, square, plastic tank sitting on its pallet on the ground. Wrong. It barely dribbled out and wouldn't even supply the homeowner-style 6hp pressure washer. Cavitation, or more accurately starvation wasa problem.
I ended up lifting it 10 feet with the bobcat to get enough head pressure/volume to supply---and even then it wasn't quite adequate. I checked around and a lot of guys use a small electric air compressor, pump-type tire pump or even a pump-type chemical sprayer to pressurize the tank and the subsequent flow.
After all, 4 gpm, if you think about it, is a lot of water especially under 45 psi coming from the tap, let alone from a tank or drum with no pressure. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-08-30 133831
I'll set the barrel up and check the flow. If it was mine, I'd just try it; I think I can tell when the pump is cavitating when using it. But since it's not mine, and damage to the pump is what I'm trying to avoid, I just want to be sure first.
The air pressurizing idea had occurred to me, but I don't have electricity at the farm, and I think I'd need my air compressor to pressurize the barrel (as it empties).
I guess I could just tram the tractor about 5 miles to the nearest car wash. That's just not as interesting.
I'll post the results after this weekend.
Thanks,
Bill ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-30 133834
Local car washes--oh boy. They're the reason I had to invest in my own equipment. I was using my local car wash cleaning off my big Case trencher one day, which wasn't even that dirty. My fairly long trailer was just past the front of the doorway so that it was collecting wash water and draining onto the parking lot. I was using the fluid-formerly-known-as-"engine degreaser", now legally called "tire cleaner" that looks like bright green antifreeze. Well, the owner was "tired of guys like" me using the car wash---to wash their equipment. So he puts up cameras and signage saying he'll prosecute anyone who washes anything than basically "clean" cars and trucks. So he tells his City sewer worker cronnie buddies that any body not doing what he says that they are to call and report it to him. Within seconds of the green fluid on the pavement, the owner (for whom I have done dirt work, and demolished a rental home and have my vehicles serviced at his oil change store) rolls up like Starsky and Hutch, along with the City worker. The City worker grabs his cell phone and declares my truck and trailer are not to be moved and are under quarantine for polluting, and that he's calling the police (who are right across the street) and the EPA---and I'm "in BIG trouble"! The owner takes him aside and calms him down after they realize it's the car wash's f----ing chemicals! Not satisifed, the City worker demands I carry around a 55 gallon drum of water AND a power washer to clean my stuff (F---k YOU!). The owner says he only wants "clean cars" in there (hence the cameras, signs, and especially changing the wording of "engine cleaner" to "tire cleaner", etc.) I tell him that's fine, I'll take my business elsewhere, along with the other business from his other car wash near my home AND the oil change place he owns. Realizing he's now pissed me off--- and I told him I'd tell my friends too, he backs down and says, "well as long as you spray down the booth and shovel up your dirt". "Nope, I'll do it myself at home, thanks." Never been back to either since. ....
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 | wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-08-31 133840
EW
Time for you to write and article for the local Paper and maybe even get yourself on a Morning Talk Show that takes in callers. Let the people know what they have for a business owner and for City reps.
Gray Water Systems are promoted because the soaps are good for the soil. So if the chemicla used is Enviromental friendly and made from a Citrus Acid, LOL the nitwits should have realized that you caused as much enviromental damage as ROTTEN PEACHES. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-08-31 133841
I think that car washes will grow to be more strictly regulated. All the local ones have signs up that say "No parts washing" or some such.
Anyway, the car wash closest to the farm has an outdoor bay that is typically used by truckers. No problems washing the tractor there. I just don't want to tram it up the 4-lane that far.
I've e-mailed Cat Pumps with my questions (thanks for the idea!).
Bill ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-08-31 133845
Bill, be sure to let us know what CAT says. There's a cat pump in my pressure washer and I'm curious to know the answer. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-08-31 133848
I suspect it has more to do, as I said earlier, about flow rates than pressures.
A "standard" garden hose will not flow 4gpm at or near 0psi, the cavitation is not because of a lack of pressure, merely a lack of adequate volume RESULTING from a lack of pressure.
Best of luck. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-08-31 133849
Reply from Cat Pumps (very promptly, I might add):
"Good mourning, the 66DX40G1I will not develop any suction, but we do have unit out there running on gravity feed water. To gravity feed this pump make sure the pump is as close to the tank as possible and below the tank level. Run an oversized flexible hose for the inlet line and reduce it right at the pump. And make sure the tank is properly sized for your application. Any other questions please feel free to ask."
Sounds easy enough.
Thanks,
Bill ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2006-08-31 133851
This topic is of great interest to me as I am scheming on a way to run my pressure washer from a standing water tank.
My problem is that my ground water is very hard.... 38 grains hard. If I use it straight it leaves horrible water spots.
If I wash the cars or tractor with softened water the volume of sodium in the water is so great (due to the initial hardness)that it still leaves a lot of spots.
My plan is to buy another low volume Reverse Osmosis system like the one under the kitchen sink that makes our drinking and cooking water.
I will let it fill a 250 gallon standing water tank in the garage and use that water to wash or maybe just rinse off the cars and other equipment.
The tank, along with a high volume 12 volt RV type water pump and a battery, will also serve as an emergency water supply for the house during the initial stages of a power failure.
I have not yet figured out if the proposed RV water pump will produce enough volume to run the pressure washer. If not I guess I will just use the system as a final rinse.
I have to do something different with the pressure washer feed. My untreated water seems to be scaling up the internals of the pump resulting in poor performance.
BTW... speaking of water storage.... anybody know what I can add to my remote drip water irrigation tank that will keep down the algae growth and still be safe for plants?? ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-31 133866
Rankin: I doubt the high vol. RV pump will be adequate to supply your home assuming you have a tank. If a well, forget it. You might want to consider connecting your well pump to either a generator or even a 5,000 watt 12vdc-120vac convertor (a.k.a. invertor). I have one installed under the passenger seat of my pickup. I use it about once a week for powering anything from a 4" grinder, to a sawzall, to a 9" grinder, to a 65lb. electric jack hammer. Even runs a 6-peak hp shop vac on a 100ft extension cord. Bought it on e-bay for less than $200. It's a godsend. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2006-08-31 133875
I am mostly interested in being able to flush the toilets without having to fire up a 10KW genset for such a small chore.
The main use will be keeping cars clean. My wife hates it when I leave spots all over her car. ....
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 | DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2006-08-31 133876
Hey Mark,
Maybe you should buy a silver color car, on mine once every 6 months seems about right as it hides the dirt real well LOL :-]
Dennis ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-31 133877
"I am mostly interested in being able to flush the toilets without having to fire up a 10KW genset for such a small chore."
Then... go outside and you won't have to flush :0
Or you could put that pesky pile of bricks to use (read: brick sh--- house).
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-09-01 133888
Mark, if you have some room in your attic you should consider installing a tank up there. A friend did this years ago, he lives in a rural area and loses power for a few hours regularly.
Basically it is like a huge toilet tank, when the water drops below the set point, which is only after the power goes out and some water has been used, and there is power to the well pump, the tank tops itself off, IE right after a power failure so it's ready for the next one. When there is no electricity, all he has to do is open a second valve behind his toilet to allow the water to flow down by gravity into the toilet tank.
It is not the normal full pressure, so it doesn't flush like normal, but it beats starting the genset, or carrying buckets of water.
It doesn't take much of a tank to flush a modern low-flow toilet a bunch of times!!
Best of luck. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2006-09-01 133897
OK... in order:
Running the well pump from an inverter: The sucker is 325 feet down and has lots of ponies. Near as I can measure, takes about 7kw to kick it into action. That was the determining factor for selecting a 10kw PTO generator.
Silver car: that would be the wifes Camry.
The pile of bricks being put to a new use: See above reference to WIFE, (not to mention the other females in the household).
Attic: wish I had one. A basement would be nice also. I live in the worlds biggest mine shack, slab on grade, vaulted ceilings and exposed beams through-out.
And I forgot to mention.... it is a 15 mile round trip to the car wash.
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-09-01 133898
Mark, I presume your good wife is not going to accept a water tank on the roof as well as Zsazsa Gabor did on Green Acres?? .... LOL.
Ollyvah, vee need vater Ollyvah!!!...... ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2006-09-01 133899
We may live in the boonies, but she has maintained some of her standards.
I am thinking I might have to resort to tiny amounts of chlorine (Bleach) to keep my water tanks from clogging up with algae.
Anybody out there have a reference as to the proper mixture rate? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-09-01 133901
Mark, based on the issues I have with my pool, and being at 45° north lattitude, I can tell you, you will not like the amount required to 'sterilize' standing water.
Your best bet is to consult a pool supply company which is where you will get the cheapest supply of chlorine anyways. Since Household Bleach is 5 1/4% Sodium Hypochlorite, Liquid Pool Chlorine is 12 1/2% Sodium Hypochlorite.
I'll try not to make this a chemistry dissertation, but here goes. Pool chlorine is 12% sodium hypochlorite, which also can be expressed as 120,000 parts per million (PPM). Household bleach is approximately 5% or 50,000 ppm. In order to sterilze water for safe use in a pool you need about 6000 ppm. If you diluted pool chlorine, 1 part of bleach to 19 parts of pure water, you would end up with solution strength of 6000 ppm. In order to sterilze water for safe use in a pool you need about 6000 ppm.
For drinking water you would want way less than that, but for storage of water, not being potable water, that would be a good starting point.
Best of luck.
Best of luck. ....
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 | AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 463 Troy OH 
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2006-09-01 133903
Drinking water should not be over 20ppm chlorine (wt/wt). ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2006-09-01 133905
Good info.... the usage is to drip irrigate on far corners of my land.
I don't want to hurt the plants... tomatoes in this case.... and I leave the tanks in place for a week or longer. After a couple of days the algae plugs up the tiny orifice in the control drip valve.
So the balance point is to use just enough to keep the green goop under control but hopefully not poison the fruit.
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-09-01 133906
Or use that # 46 B/H and bury a tank in the yard where the water will stay cold enough to retard the algae growth in the first place.
Ann is right about the level of chlorine in potable water.
However I know from experience that 6,000 ppm does not kill my grass or the apple trees when they get soaked on a regular basis. I'm pretty sure that much would make you clean as a whistle inside & out though if you drank it. LOL.
Best of luck. ....
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| DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2006-09-01 133907
My Labrador pup drank alot of pool water when we were teaching him to swim and his stool quickly turned white when it dried in the sun afterwards. So oh yeah it will clean you out quite nicely.
....
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| Gator6x4
Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10 North Carolina
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2006-09-02 133917
Pressure washers need a pressurized inlet water supply. Damage to the pump will occur if the pump is operated without a pressurized water supply. Call some of the supply houses and obtain the price of a pump to replace the pump currently on the unit. I would recommend you be setting down when you get the price. I am sure your friend would/will be real surprised at having to replace the pump when you return the unit. That said, the bottom line will be beteen you and your friend when you return the unit. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-09-02 133925
Yes, well, that is why I contacted Cat Pumps directly, and they gave me the go-ahead.
That is also why I made up a water tank using a plastic 55-gallon barrel and 1-1/2 inch suction line. I JB Welded a 1-1/2 inch fitting on to the drum, got the required fittings to reduce it to garden hose size for the pump inlet, and tried it out today. Works like a charm. Set the barrel up in the back of the truck with the pressure washer on the ground so I had about 3-1/2 or 4 feet of head. I didn't need high pressure for this job, just about like a car wash, so I turned the regulator down toward the lower end of adjustment. No pump cavitation that I could tell. Only used about 2/3 of my water supply in the 20 minutes or so I worked on the tractor.
Your results may vary.
Thanks,
Bill ....
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