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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-02-16          124663


Next week I have an appointment with a lawyer to discuss ongoing problems with our geothermal heat pump. Anyone ever do something like this before? I hate to do this but I'm at my wits end. Any advice from those who have done this before would be appreciated.



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SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 579 g
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2006-02-16          124666


Request an Itemmized list of his services. If you make a phone call to his office for just a question you will be charged for the phone call and he will mail you the answer and charge you for that. The first meeting should be for free, and if you decide on a venue, what action will be taken. You have to be in a bad way to even say the word, lawyer. Best of luck I would rather french kiss a Grizzley bear. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-02-16          124668


I've used this guy twice before on other simple matters and always thought he treated me fairly. But I will keep an eye on the billing. Hopefully he can get someones attention with a few letters. I've been unable to get anyone's attention in a few years. ....


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SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006
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2006-02-16          124670


Have you thought about legal aid (that is lawyers in school) they take on suits as part of school work. I used them when a car dealer tried to weasel some money out of me. They sent him a couple of letters with Lawyer BS in it and he was happy to drop it. Here they call it legal aids assistance just a thought. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-02-16          124677


Legal aid is a good idea! I'll see about that after my free consultation with the regular lawyer. If it looks like costs will go out of control alternatives may look better. I'll end up paying thousands to get this problem fixed one way or another. What I want is a working and economical geothermal system like I paid a premium for, so it's either pay the lawyer or pay to have another system put in. The lawyer is looking cheaper right now, especially if a few letters will get some action, but if things escalate I may regret it. My hope is the manufacturer will get involved and see that it gets replaced or fixed properly. ....


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SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 579 g
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2006-02-16          124682


No service after the deal sucks there have been alot of post on that same matter. It would be best if the Manufacturer would step up to the plate. Maybe the lawyer will make a early impression and you will come out of this clean. Have you had any contact with Manufacturer and let them know you have now exausted all avenues except the legal one. I would have to let them know my head is on fire and my A$$ is cold, and my wallet is empty. I gots to have some relief. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-02-16          124684


Yep. I can't get the time of day from the manufacturer. The most acknowledgement received from them has been the postal signature receipts from the certified letters I've sent. ....


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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 676
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2006-02-18          124751


Before you start paying a dime, Try calling your Chamber of Commerce and your Sates Attorney, they may be able to ge tthe ball rolling for you before you spend money. I would also write letters to the editor, mostly in the area of the manufacturer and cause a Beehive of a comotion, No Manufacturer likes Bad P.R. It may sound stupid, I did it and it worked for me, may have not been the exact same circumstances but it worked.
Lawyers for the most part are detail orieneated and they are more so when it comes to billing you. I sued a lwyer here and it was because his bill was very vague, he had told me that the fist conselation was FREE and after that $85 per hour. Even if he wasn't in and I only talked to his Secretary, I was billed the $85 per hour. So when I ggot his bill pff to court we went and I told the Judge, I wanted Notes form the 11 hours of work he claimed o have performed, I wanted to benifit from this and not just pay for him to get educated and I wanted PROOF that he was working ONLY on my case and no one elses during those hours I was being billed. I wanted to be sure he was charging mre than once for the same hours.
The Judge laughed but reduced the amount I owed the lawyer by over 2/3's I had gone to the Board of Lawyer Fee Disputes. I guess not all lawyers are loved by their peers.
It was Sooooo Cold here yesterday, I actually saw a lawyer walking with his hands in his own pockets. ....


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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2006-02-19          124792


Did you have a written contract with the contractor who installed it?
I have had good luck with with The Better Business Bureau if they are a member they have thirty days to resolve disputes or loose their standing. Just a thought, you can find their web site and check BBB.com I think.
My Mason told me one of a house he is trying to finish the
fireplace on here in Maine, where they put one these thermal goundwater wells heating system? It does not work,
can't get the house over fifty degrees. The cost of the system was eighty thousand dollars! One of them babyboomer
millionaires coming up here to the lakes. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-01          130228


Hey Ken, what ever happened?

Did you get your system fixed? ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-06-01          130236


Still working on it. I've met with the lawyer and we are attempting to get them to fix it without a lawsuit. Mostly it means getting them to replace the entire system with a larger unit and new ground loop. An expensive proposition on their part but I think we've got the ammo to win a lawsuit. Years worth of power consumption data put the lie to their written energy consumption and payback projections. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-01          130251


Ken, how do you know the ground loop is faulty? My buddy in Ann Arbor, Mich. helped install his own loop and said it wasn't bad---the biggest deal was getting an excavator on the property and keeping the walls of the trench from caving in (he has sand). The way he described it it was about a 2" dia. black poly piping buried underground. The syytem he has is ten years old and he doesn't spend more than $32 a month year round heating/cooling 6,000 sq ft of living space. As far as the mechanicals, isn't that something that is easily replaced? Going back to the piping, I know myself it's easy to kink a pipe when backfilling---is it possible that it was kinked somewhat after backfilling and settling resulted in more kinkage---just a thought.

Also, don't you have an engineering background? What if you did a resistance or volume test using compressed air (maybe comp air in on one side of the pipe and measure volume/pressure on the other end---that should tell you if there is an obstruction/kink)???? ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2006-06-01          130255


The loop installer gave me a written description of the loop as he installed it. It doesn't match the loop requirements that the manufacturer specified. The trench is significantly shorter than specified, the pipe density is greater than allowed and the overall pipe length and loop volume is less than required. Not to mention the fact that it won't hold pressure for more than a month. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-02          130263


Ken,

I may be missing something here but: it would seem if it is not working for any reason to do with the equipment or installation it would not be your responibility to prove why and so forth. It would seem if it has never worked it would be who ever sold and installed it to prove it was not their fault.

But I'm just that way.

Without rereading the total thread, it the mfg is a stockholder owned company, buy yourself ONE share. It will give you info not open to the general public. Might help.

GD, GB
....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-02          130270


Ken have you weighed the cost of litigation against replacing the pipe yourself? Before you know it, you may have had to pay a lawyer AND replace it. Not to mention all the stress involved and the downtime of the system.

Another thought: homeowners insurance--is it possible they will repalce it for you and then they will go after the installer. You may have to be careful how you ask or frame the questions or they might turn you down. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-06-02          130276


KT, that's the whole point. They claim it is working I claim it is not.

Earthwrks, frankly I don't care about the cost of litigation. If it costs me money to fix I'd rather give the money to a lawyer than to them. It's not just a loop problem. The unit is undersized and the installation is all screwed up. To top it off I paid extra for a 10 year "no hassle" parts and labor warranty and the dealer dropped the product line and won't service it. I want them to eat it. ....


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