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 | candmgam
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 15 South Australia 
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2005-03-24 108673
I've got a JD 4410 with a JD 4-in-1 bucket installed on a 410 FEL. I'm thinking of getting a Top 'n Tilt from Integrated Engineering. Any comments on if/how I could use my existing 4-in-1 hydraulics to power the TNT? I would be unlikely to use 4-in-1 and TNT at the same time, so it seems that if I were to uncouple the 4-in-1 hydraulics (at the rear of the tractor), couple the TNT lines, and somehow lock the 4-in-1 control lever in either the open or close position, that would do the trick. Kind of rough and ready, but a lot cheaper than getting a JD Power Beyond kit, and way cheaper than the whole JD TNT and diverter valve setup. Thanks for any comments - long time since I used this board...having a great time with my 4410 bought new last year.
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa 
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2005-03-25 108703
I've did such a thing before on farm tractors that only had one set of hyd outlets. I pluged into the cirict I had, in your case the 4 in 1, went from there to a diverter valve that switched between the two I needed then I would switch depending on which cylinder I wanted to activate, then use in your case the 4 in 1 fender lever for your top and tilt. If you use a power beyond circit you either have power beyond or the use of the three point, not both at the same time. Best of luck. Frank. ....
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| candmgam
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 15 South Australia
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2005-03-25 108728
Frank, thanks for the reply - nice to chat again, last time was during my decision-making on buying the equipment - May last year. No regrets on the decision to go for JD 4410 ++, and I'm building up a useful set of implements - some bought, some made (by a very handy retired farmer brother-in-law) - 7' rake, front forks, 5' rear mower/slasher, 6' 30-tine cultivator, 7' grader (manual TNT!) - which together with the 4-in-1 seem to get everything I need done. Also have a smallish petrol drive wood-chipper for which we've made up a 3PH mount to cart it around the property. Currently have a 3PH mounted, hydraulic driven wood-splitter in work.
Thanks for your response to my Q - I didn't realise that the PB and 3PH were an either/or - I guess that's OK as I can't see that I would want to use them at exactly the same time, although in cutting and maintaining driveways etc. with the grader, both would come into play I guess. Still some thinking to do. I like the JD approach of the diverter valve, switching between front and rear hydraulics, and using the FEL joystick for TNT (can't see ever needing to work the FEL and TNT together) but the all-up cost of diverter kit and TNT is around $US2,500!! Once again thansk for the info. Cheers ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-03-25 108732
Sounds like you're really getting a lot of use out of your 4410, they are a nice tractor to run and will do an amazing amount of work for their size. Sounds like between you and your brother inlaw you'll do just fine at making the TNT system work. I use my power beyond for the #48 backhoe. Whatever you plug into the power beyond circit must have it's own releif valves, it's a direct flow from the pump with no releif valve when it's not pluged into the 3pt. With the 4 in 1 bucket on the front and the #48 hoe on the back it makes fun out of digging out small brush and grabing them up to carry away in the bucket. Enjoy, Frank. ....
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 | tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-03-26 108785
I have a smaller JD790 and seriously considered whether to use a diverter valve or not, and at one point thought that I needed the power-beyond kit.
I finally decided that when I really planned out the plumbing, it was simpler to just put another selective control valve in series with the FEL valve. It also became clear that the power-beyond kit from JD was pretty unhelpful. It just provided another set of lines that would tap in where I wanted to, but they're routed to the back of the tractor for rear implements instead of routing to my new TNT valve. Some poeple have then run hoses from the rear ports to the new TNT valve, but that still seemed like a kluge. I preferred to run the new lines directly to the new control valve, so that meant making up my own lines.
My tractor hydraulics (and probably yours) is an "open center system." In this type of system, when a valve control lever is centered and inactive, the hydraulic fluid is allowed to pass through the valve from the "power" (P) port to the "power-beyond" (PB) port to go to the next "user" in the circuit, except the last user of hydraulic fluid in the series circuit may just be plumbed to return fluid through the low pressure "return to tank" (T) line. When a valve is actuated, some of the fluid from the "P" port is diverted into a cylinder, and the fluid it displaces is diverted to the "T" port and back to the reservoir tank (or transaxle casing in my case, the hydraulics and transaxle are all the same oil supply).
When you use a diverter, if you have two double acting cylinders in each function (like a TNT or a FEL), you have to interrupt 4 work lines from the control valve, and divert them to one of two sets of four cylinder work lines. That's a total of 12 work lines comming into one diverter valve.
Instead of that, by adding a new selective control valve into an "open-center" series hydraulic system, all you have to do is find a convenient place to tap in between a "PB" and the following "P" in the hydraulic system, and find a convenient return to tank port to TEE into. In my case I am disconecting the "PB" from the 3pt rock shaft to the FEL "P" input port. I will run a new line from the rock shaft "PB" to the "P" on my TNT valve, and from the "PB" on my TNT valve to the "P" on the FEL vale. Then I will run a line from the "T" of my TNT valve to a TEE into the "T" port of my FEL valve.
In other words instead of having to route 12 work lines to a diverter valve, I only have to route three open center supply and return lines, and four new work lines. By locating the control valve for the TNT on the ROPS, it is midway between the hydraulic supply lines and the new cylinders, making everything very sanitary and keeping the lines nice and short. I decided I would be turning around in my seat to look at what I was doing when I was controlling the TNT, so mounting the valve on the ROPS was both convenient to the plumbing, and convenient to operate.
I just decided that a new control valve was a simpler implementation with a lot less plumbing complication than a diverter valve.
I am about half way into my TNT project now. I bought cylinders from Surplus Center (2x6 and 2x10) that I will need to weld new ends onto, and I got a Prince LVT valve that is nice and compact yet with plenty of capacity. I have the valve mounted, and am working on getting the fittings for the three new supply lines. I decided I wanted to use steel tubing for the supply lines rather than hoses. I'm going to need to fabricate some braze-on banjo fittings that I can't seem to buy easily, but I believe your tractor uses standard hydraulic fittings. Once I get the cylinders all welded and mounted, I will measure the longest hose length I could need for each of the four lines and go get hoses made up for the work lines.
By the way, the Integration Engineering or CCM kits are probably not a bad source for the cylinders and valve, but you still have to figure out how to route the plumbing. They can help some, but it is difficult for them to know about every tractor that a customer has. I was originally going to use their products, but by the time I had figured out all the plumbing issues I knew what I needed well enough that I figured I would save some money and get exactly what I wanted by buying my own parts. Other folks have been very happy with their products and I have no doubt they are quite good. ....
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| candmgam
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 15 South Australia
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2005-03-26 108796
Thanks for taking the time on the very comprehensive (and educational) reply - lots to think about. I need to sit down and do the mapping of the way my 4410 is set up, as well as what I'm trying to achieve - TNT and any future e.g. backhoe. I don't want to spend huge $$ on getting this all done, but, like you I don't want to wind up with a kluge. I'll update this thread this progresses - I'm sure there'll be a lot of wrinkles! Thanks again. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA 
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2005-03-26 108813
Hardwood, why do you suppose it is either or with the PB and the 3 point hitch. I was under the impression JD wants you to dump the return from the backhoe before entering the rockshaft valve so you don't accidentally operate the 3 point when it is unable to move and likely to cause damage. If you plumbed the PB to a remote valve that has power beyond port and then ran the return from the remote valve into the regular return to the rockshaft valve, you can have both at the same time. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-03-27 108833
Denwood; I really don't know why the PB is either/or with the 3pt. The service rep warned me never to start the engine without the PB plugged into the backhoe or back to the three pt. As you say there are likely ways to alter the system to use it for a remote, but I haven't studied that enough to comment. Something to think about. Best of luck. Frank. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-03-27 108840
If you want to run a backhoe, log splitter or and other attachment with its own control valves, you need a power beyond port.
And, yes, you never want to run the tractor with the couplers unplugged. The PB is tapped into the whole open center concept and there must be continuous flow at all times.
That said, a Top and Tilt kit with its own valves runs just like backhoe or a log splitter and works just fine off the PB port.
....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-27 108842
DRankin, I saw in the other thread you said you run your T&T off PB and obviously you still have 3 point functions. Does your JD have the alternate return port that bypasses the rockshaft valve when you use the BH? If so I suppose you just use the regular return port when using the T&T? ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-03-27 108845
To the best of my understanding, the PB is simply an exposed loop of pressurized flowing hydraulic fluid.
The system I have does not compromise the three point hitch in any way, although I do not use it in conjunction with the backhoe.
I do use the three point hitch together with the splitter and the top n' tilt, both running off the PB, with no apparent problems. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-27 108849
On mine as well as others, the PB loop when used with nothing, loops to one return port that goes to the rockshaft. When using bachoe (not a PTO powered), it is supposed to return to a different port above the original that bypasses the 3 PT and just dumps back to the axle housing. ....
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 | jeffinsgf
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 10 Brighton (Springfield), MO
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2005-03-27 108858
candmgam, have you considered having the third control added, instead of the diverter? I have this and am planning on adding a top cylinder at some point. I will have to tilt manually, but as you pointed out, for $2,500.00, I can get off and change the angle when needed. I use the third control for a dump trailer now. ....
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-03-27 108860
Top and Tilt certainly can be run off of a rear implement power-beyond kit, I just don't like the way the plumbing works out: One set of supply lines to the back of the tractor and then another set to run up to the TNT valve. Why not just plumb the TNT valve into the system directly and then run from there to the rear outlets if you want rear outlets for something (log splitter, backhoe, etc.).
Another consideration is that some rear implements want hydraulic supply lines and have their own valve(s) (log splitter, backhoe), others want valve-controlled work lines (back blade angle, snow blower chute, etc.
If your rear outlet power beyond is just another series connection in the open-center series hydraulic circuit, you need to connect it with a jumper hose so that the continuous output pump doesn't have to blow the pressure relief valve to get return oil. That oil has to go someplace. Whether you connect it to a tank return or a pressure inlet to another user in the series circuit depends on whether it is the last user of hydraulic pressure in the series circuit. In most cases I think it usually is. I have always thought that a nicer way to hook up rear outlets would be to use a ball valve that bypasses the rear circuit connectors, completing the path when you don't need a rear implement. That way you wouldn't need a stub hose loop hanging off the connectors, and it could all be hard line. ....
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| jeffinsgf
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 10 Brighton (Springfield), MO
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2005-03-27 108867
OK, some theoretical planning for the Green people following this thread. I have been looking at adding CCM's top and tilt kit, which adds a second joystick that you have to find a location for. I have not talked to them yet, but after reading this thread, I have an idea that some of you may have considered, or I may be missing something. The backhoe connection of power beyond kit for John Deere CUT's has you cap off the normal return line and connect to a different return port on the left side of the tractor. I believe this is what bypasses the rockshaft adjustment. What if, in plumbing another set of controls, you used the normal return line? Rockshaft still works, right? I am thinking about doing this and putting the joystick on the right rear fender just above the power beyond ports. I can do this for about one fourth of what JD wants for their selectable diverter, 4th and 5th SCV's, and top and tilt kit. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-27 108874
Jeff, from my limited knowledge of hydraulics, I believe you could do what you say, I plan to. One thing to keep in mind is the additional valve you plan to add on the rops. It will need to have what is called a Power beyond port. You need one of these if you plan to put another valve downstream of the first, IE the rockshaft valve. I assume since the rockshaft valve follows the top and tilt valve, some back pressure will affect the T&T valve when you operate the 3 point, hence the need for a T&T valve with a Power beyond port. Another thing, if you are going to all the trouble of adding a seperate valve to operate the T&T, why stop with just a 2 spool valve. For just a little more, you can get a 3 spool and leave the first 2 for the T&T, and still have another for a dump trailer, angle blade, power scarifier on box blade, etc. ....
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-03-27 108880
I believe you can use any port you like for the low pressure return line, as long as it IS a low pressure point in the system. If what you are talking about is a power beyond port, the port that passes fluid when the spools are centered, that needs to go to any remaining users of fluid power, unless you are the last device on the circuit, and then you would normally block the power beyond function and allow that fluid and work fluid to go back to the return to tank. ....
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| jeffinsgf
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 10 Brighton (Springfield), MO
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2005-03-27 108882
denwood, the CCM kit control valve has power beyond. I am thinking of going with this unit a) because it's easy and pre-planned and b) because I already have the JD 3rd SCV and five seems like enough. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-28 108906
My JD 3rd goes to the loader for grapple, power angle snow plow etc. thats why I wanted an extra for the back. Other companies offer predesigned packages with 2 or 3 remotes like Gearmore. They do not have a single joystick but I am not sure I would want a joystick for T&T since it is not something that requires constant adjustment to both valves of T&T at tha same time like a loader, but I do like the ccm cylinders with the load checks built in to prevent leak down ....
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