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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 931 First Organized Permanent Settlement In The Northwest Territory.
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2004-12-18          102506


Has anyone used this system?

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jackzucosky
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13 pennsylvania
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2004-12-18          102508


We built a new house and used this system. So far it is performing very well. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-12-19          102510


Just curious, I've never heard of Icynene, what is it? Frank. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2004-12-19          102511


It's a spray on or in expanding foam. I had to do a search also. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-12-19          102513


The R value is very high & it only expands to 3.5 inches. I am right in the middle of negotiating having my attic done. My house is a 100 years old & it was insulated with R 11 in the ceiling of the 2nd floor when insultation was first invented. When I bought the house I gutted it & reinsulated the walls with new batts. I was going to do batts in the attic this winter. I was on a job were they were spraying a house with the icynene so I asked the applicator about it. He said they do many old houses & instead of removing the existing batts in the attic floor, they just spay the attic ceiling & gable ends & the house will have no leaks at all. They are scheduled to do it the middle of January. He said it has an R 39 rating. ....

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8NFord
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 29 Six Mile, SC
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2004-12-19          102517


I built my new house 6 years ago to be very efficient. I used 2x6 walls and had them foamed with Icynene. I still marvel at how tight this house is. Besides being very high on R value, its biggest benefit is the ability to seal air tight every nook and cranny. Behind every wiring box, window sill, pipe, etc. It is tight. My power bills average $37 year round, and I'm all electric.
If I ever built another house, this is one thing I would insist on. Well worth the money.
JD
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jackzucosky
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13 pennsylvania
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2004-12-19          102527


There seems to be some confusion about these insulation systems. Icynene is a brand name. It is an open celled foam. Open celled foams have an R value of 3.6 per inch. There are also closed cell foams being used. These have an R value of 7 per inch. The way you tell the difference between the two is open celled foam is soft like a pillow and closed cell foam is hard. Fiberglass insulation has a claimed R value of 3.7 per inch. Foams claim to fame is that it expands into every nook and cranny of the building and virtually stops all air infiltration. Closed cell foams are usually much more expensive than open celled foams. Foam expands greatly upon application (100:1). The R value is determined by the amount of material the installer places in the cavity. Typically an Icynene insulation quote will be 3" in the walls and 5" in the ceiling. To achieve a R-39 value in a ceiling approximately 11" of foam would have to be sprayed. I think that if you question the installer he would be more than likely spraying 5-6" of foam and claiming it performs better than R-39 of fiberglass. ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-12-19          102528


is there a risk of water getting in the open cell if there is ever a leak somewhere? is there any risk of rotting the wood under the shingles? and what about too much heat in the summer? In the winter isn't the heat going to escape your living area and then get insulated in the attic? I am asking because I am building a house next year and really like the foam idea. ....

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jackzucosky
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13 pennsylvania
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2004-12-19          102529


If there is a leak the foam will not absorb water. Your sheathing will not rot because there is there is no water vapor or air infiltration that gets past the foam. You also will not need house wrap. What causes roof shingles to fail is when there is a wide temperature differential between the outside and inside of the shingle. The foam prevents this. We foamed all the interior bathroom walls and any walls that have plumbing drains. This greatly aided in keeping these areas isolated noisewise from the rest of the house. ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
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2004-12-19          102540



Just curious, I've never heard of Icynene, what is it? Frank.
+++++++ ~~~~~ ````

www.icynene.com ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-12-19          102543


Just another curiosity question. For example if I were to strip out the old lath and plaster of a home intending to put roll fiberglass between the 2X4's instead of the Icynene then sheetrock on top what cost difference would I find between the two systems. Thanks. Frank. ....

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jackzucosky
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13 pennsylvania
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2004-12-19          102544


It's a type of foam thats used for insulating houses. It's sprayed into wall cavities as a liquid and expands to fill them. ....

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jackzucosky
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-12-19          102545


Foam is not a do it yourself project. I would think you would be in the $1.50 to $2.00 a square foot range ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
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2004-12-19          102549


~~~~~The cost of stripping the old and the new drywall job will be the same
using either insulation.------

```````However If you can find a way to spray the foam with out disturbing the plaster you save the cost of tearing out the old and the cost of installing finishing and painting or papering new drywall.

The foam also saves the cost of buying and installing the fiber glass.


....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-12-19          102565


My qoute to do my attic was $2.55 per square foot
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dklopfenstein
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 125 Southern Indiana
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2004-12-20          102607


We built a new house about 2 years ago and after lots of research, I went with Icynene. It was more expensive but will more than pay for itself in a few years. What is great about it is that it does not burn like other foams, it is sprayed to the desired thickness, seals out all drafts, and never breaks down. The only downside to the product is putting outlets and switches into a sprayed wall during additions or remodeling is pretty difficult. Besides this, it is a superior product to anything else that is out there. Good luck! ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-12-20          102619


Any idea about how it would work on the floor of a crawl space over a sheet of plactic covering dirt. I would need to crawl on it periodically to do plumbing, wiring, etc. ....

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Mikef54
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-12-20          102627


Denwood, I had Neutocrete installed in the crawlspace of my house in Hatteras NC several years ago. It is a lightweight cement harder and more durable than any foam. So far it is holding up extremely well. At least three floods and still solid as a rock!!! Check out their website. Mike.


http://www.neutocrete.com/main.html ....

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dklopfenstein
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 125 Southern Indiana
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2004-12-20          102630


I probably would not recommend it if you are going to be crawling on it periodically. The foam works well because of all the air in it...by smashing it, it will loose its effectiveness. It is not nearly as rigid as a sheet of isulation board. ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-12-20          102637


Mike, thanks, that stuff looks great, might be just what I am looking for. I didn't know anything like that existed. Can you give me some idea of cost? I did email them for someone to contact me. ....

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Mikef54
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 43 CT
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2004-12-21          102678


Denwood, It's not cheap!!! But the workmanship and end result are of very high quality. My wife is looking for the bills now. When she finds them I will let you know. The job they did for me was at my house on the Outer Banks of NC. It was the first beach house that they did. It has held up very well. The product is pumped in and applied up the sidewalls and posts about 6 inches. It has just about eliminated the musty damp smells coming up from the crawlspace. Will get back to you with the cost as soon as posssible. Mike. ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 121 Colorado
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2004-12-21          102683


Has anybody used the biobased foam? I am going to hopefully have my attic insulated (walls are ICF concrete) and am waiting for the Icynene guy to get back to me with a price, but the biobased (Soybean based spray solvent or something) just gave me a bid (~2.25 / sf). Very similar properties to icynene. ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 931 First Organized Permanent Settlement In The Northwest Territory.
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2004-12-22          102703


It was more expensive but will more than pay for itself in a few years.
dklopfenstein
================
Icynene informed me that with their system you can scale down the size of the heating and air conditioning units to less expensive models that will maintain the same comfort level as the larger more expensive higher fuel consuming models required for Fiberglass cellos and other type insulations.
This factor alone could more than off set the price difference between Icynene and other insulations.








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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-12-22          102741


To insulate a 2600 sf attic

I can do R42 in celluose for $1850
Biobased costs $5900
Waiting on Icynene... And crossing my fingers.

I have ICF walls, so I've already undersized my HVAC equipment. Hoping Icynene will come in a bit under, then I could spring for it.

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Mikef54
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-12-27          103036


Denwood--- My apologies for not getting back to you sooner, but with the holiday and and trying locate the Neutocrete file I just got around to replying. Sorry to say I do not have a per foot price for the Neutocrete. All I have is a price for the whole job that they did, which included much extra work. I can vouch for the workmanship and quality, it is excellent. If I ever had to do anything like this again I would not hesitate.
Mike. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2004-12-27          103042


Has anyone used a similar product made with soybean oil? It was featured on Michael Holigan's TV show called Your New House. They say it is popular in Texas. ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2004-12-27          103044


Mike, thanks for your reply. I have contacted them and hopefully they will get back to me. ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
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2004-12-29          103120


What are ICF walls ? ? ? ....

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HuckMeat
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Posts: 121 Colorado
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2004-12-30          103156


ICF walls are Insulated Concrete Forms - They are a concrete wall form system that you stack like legos and fill with steel and concrete. Makes for an air tight wall with insulation on the exterior and interior. Firring strips are usually tied to the concrete beneath the foam that you can attach sheetrock and siding to. I used the forms from www.nudura.com, but they are sold by 20-30 companies each with a slight change or difference.

We had 100 mile an hour winds a few days ago, and you could hardly tell.

murph ....

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lbrown59
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2004-12-30          103193


ICF walls are Insulated Concrete Forms -
HuckMeat
==============
Thanks.Now I know what you're talking about.
Guess I just never heard it called that.
[color=criminson]***************[/color]
[color=goldenrod]GET THE BASICS HERE.[/color]
[url]http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=410243#post410243[/url]
[color=criminson]*****************[/color]
>









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JAZAK5
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2004-12-31          103226


how does it perform in detering rodents and pests
I have to insulate a crawl space and its tough to get to
the last thing I need is making a home for a lonely mouse or some ants ....

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denwood
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2005-01-16          104292


Whew! Neutocrete is some expensive stuff. It is concrete mixed with vermiculite for light weight and so it won't flow. For 2" thick, $9 per square foot to start, plus cleanup, sealing, drain, etc. I can build a garage for less than that. The salesman even said you have to be in a lot of pain to justify it. I am going to look into shotcrete or gunite? like they reline silos and pools with. anybody know how much that runs. He also does the icynene for $3 sq ft and 2 lb. closed cell for $3 sq ft, and polyurea for $6 sq ft. ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-01-16          104320


Couple of thoughts and questions or opinions needed. I have been doing as much research on this as I can (when I feel like it) Opinion: First of all talking to a salesman about the pro's and cons of just about any product
is in my opinion "for what it is worth" information. If the product is the only one he installs or sells more than likely you wont hear any of the bad aspects (atleast nothing he could be sued for if he dont disclose it to you). Anything that is still unfounded or proven one way or the other you wont hear about either. (That is why what Denwood just posted makes me a bit weary about this product) (good post denwood!) Not in all cases but I feel most of the time anyways. Also anyone who dont install or profit off anouther type will more than likely have the opposite opinion of a product and push their product instead. That is where places like this provide a great way to get advice. Problem with folks talking good about their system they had installed is that "SOME" folks are not seeing the forrest trhu the trees to be on the nice side. To be on the not so nice side, some folks are just to damm proud to say they paid too much for a system that really is marginal at best. That brings us to the point where we have to ask as many questions as possible and sift thru the answers to find the middle ground to get as close to the truth as possible. I so far have found (in my opinion) that this product should definatley be a possibility. I feel it may have great benifits in the right situation and applications. I also feel there may be places where it is used that would be a non factor.
Tha being said (with no prior experiance with this product)there are a few questions that I feel I can't get the straight skinny on. Maybe it is because the jury is still out on the possible side effects. The scary thing is that once installed it is for all practical purposes,"PERMINANT" and it can have serious consequences.
I am looking for information on ceiling instalations. Particularily in cathedral applications. From what I gather (if the info I am getting is 100% true) this system could be the best way to insulate a cathedral type construction. The old standard of leaving a 1 1/2 air gap between the roof sheathing and the insulation (if this product does what they say it does) is outdated and void with this application? (yes that was a question) What do you guys (especially the ones who have it already) feel about this. The ones that dont have it installed please way in also. I may soon be building and once it goes in the ceiling it will be perminant without ripping off the entire roof! This scares me! If making a solid insulation with this product will not hurt the integrity of the roof then I feel this is far and away the best way to go with cathedrals which all of us know have typically been the worst for energy efficency. With a system like this that may change. So here are a few questions listed that I have. My fear is not with the initial cost of application but the effects it may have on the life of the structure?
1. What do you feel about having no air gap in a cathedral application on the longevity of your roof?
2. If doing a roof with this product and money is a consideration. Since most homes in my area have 2x6 walls, what would you think about having the roof in cathedrals done and then have this product installed in the walls ONLY around window areas and other utility cavities that take up space in a wall?
(I was thinking this would be a great way to cut the cost and achieve the most from this product barring having the whole house done in it.)
We all know we can get great insulation in a open attick type setting and in 6" walls also. The windows areas have always been a problem even when the best care is took in installing fiberglass.

Does anyone know of any unbiased web sites to go to? I still feel the best information would be from honest home owners. Problem is, how long has this application been in use and what will be the lasting effects of this type of instalation say in 20 years? I am really up in the air here but am leaning strongly towards trying it in my cathedrals and just around the window areas and doors(which will be alot) in the new house.
If Murph or anyone in canada is posting and reading this, what is the thinking up by you guys on this? I know you guys get some real HOT summer time days (more hot than many folks can believe) and we all know about the arctic clippers we get from you air mailed to us. Is this product catching on up by you guys?
Thanks alot guys, I know this was long but IMHO having this installed should ne be a knee jerk reaction, the resulting effects could be a disaster if it does not perform the way it is being marketed as.
I appreciate all your responses!
Thanks Tom ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-01-16          104341


I just (as in the past 3 days) had the biobased (soybean spray agent) version of icynene installed. I installed it in the invented roof application - i.e. the typical cathedreal attic type configuration.

I did this because, as it is now part of the 2004 IEC, it's more energy efficient than the old way, and it eliminated all the deliberate holes/penetrations for conventional venting. I installed temperature sensors under the roofing, under the attic sheathing, and inside the (now conditioned) attic space to see how the unvented roof performs. Some studies indicate that the venting of an attic only lowers the sheathing temperature about 7 degrees in extreme conditions.

Honestly, I think you'll find a pretty significant performance increase - certainly with a cathedreal ceiling application - My roofer said that the 1.5" air gap didn't really work all that well, and that it was better roof wise, if you were really concerned, to lay 2x4 stringers and put down a second layer of OSB for the "cold roof" as is done in some very cold/high snowfall applications.
....

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grassgod
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2005-01-16          104350


you installed the 2x4 stringers to the rafters before they sprayed the insulation? ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-01-16          104356


Huckmeat
2x4 stringers? WOW people actually do that? Sounds like a heck of an idea but not in my plans. I read the same thing as your roofer told you. Seems it is getting more common all the time and is being approved all over also. I was under the impresion that the air gap was more for the condensation than for cooling ventilation? I am pretty sure I am going to go with some form of this application. With your research you done what did you conclude with the difference between the porous and the more solid form? I understand the solid one is supposed to be more expensive but will not let any movement between.
What made you finally decide on the soybean application?
I sure hope it works out for you and please keep us informed on how it performs!
Thanks ....

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dklopfenstein
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-01-17          104365


My installer sprayed the roofline as well. When I questioned him about it for condensation, he explained it like a styrofoam cup...they don't sweat like glass or plastic due to the thermal barrier. I have had no problems with condensation at all. Just a great efficient system all around. ....

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grassgod
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2005-01-17          104367


This is getting more & more confusing. I am going to have my catheadral style attic sprayed very soon, so I need to figure out what is the best thing to do...do I install the stringers with osb or should I not? ....

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HuckMeat
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2005-01-17          104368


Whoops.. I was in a rush, so let me explain more. My TP membership also just expired, so I can only read a bit of the threads.

The 2x4 stringers allow an air gap so that your roof stays cold and also so that there is no condensation within the envelope. I Didn't do this, but it is common at the higher elevations here in colorado, around the ski resorts, where OSB might as well be solid gold, since money doesn't matter. :)

What I did is really akin to a SIP - I framed my roof with trusses, sheathed it with 3/4" OSB, covered it with a fire deck (1/4" dens deck) and then had a fully adhred EPDM roof membrane installed. I didn't want to spend $1000 in pop up vents to vent this low pitch (1/2:12) roof, plus each of those vents would have a flashing which would eventually fail, causing a leak. (It's a flat roof, so I'm sure it will leak anyway, but you get the idea).

2004 code (actually, an approved ammendment to the 2004 code) allows a building designer/builder to spray a vapor impermable insulation to the underside of the roof decking (so that the insulation is on the top side of the attic, instead of resting on your sheetrock in the floor of the attic). This effectivly moves the condensation point to the inside surface of the insulation, which is now conditioned space, and thus won't condense. In fact, the code requires that enough insulation be applied to keep this inner surface above the condensation point for the area.

In my house, we designed it with a low pitch roof, and 18" heel in the attic trusses. We sprayed in ~10-11 inches, which gives around R40, and leaves the floor of the attic clear for me to snake a TV cable that I forgot or whatever now and then.

Hope this explains more. So far my temperature sensors show the roof sheating underside tracking the exterior temperature by about 2 degrees, while the inside temperature sits at around 60-66. We have radiant heat, so we don't heat much of the air, hence the lower ceiling/attic air temperatures.

I'll try to post more results as I get them, here and to my site. ....


Link:   murphy acres

 
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Mikef54
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 43 CT
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2005-01-17          104383


Brokenarrow, Just to clarify, just which product is it that you are "wary" of?
Mike. ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 121 Colorado
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2005-01-17          104401


Here is a link to a construction website - The site is on ICF walls, which I just built my house out of, but they discuss the best way to insulate attics in these houses - These are long-time building guys who focus on energy efficiency and cost. Their recommendations are SIPS or spray in foam. ....


Link:   ICF Building Forum posts on icynene

 
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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-01-18          104480


Dont get me wrong, not weary just want to make the right choice. BOTH I am considering all options.
HEY MURPHY acres, that is really a great idea with the computer editorial of the house project. I have a few ?'s
1. I did not know you were building anouther house! Where have I been?
2. Where did all you trees go? LOL How far is it to town and you just have hell for wind storms there eh? Where is it that your building and why? Is this in Ole Canada still?
PS Nice looking contruction love the heavy timbers for the walls! That is my plan also ....

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millers1
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 94 Charles Town, WV
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2005-01-21          104600


I'm thinking of studding out the walls and putting, having the stuff sprayed between the studs, directly on the walls and then putting up OSB or Plywood to finish it off.

Will the foam adhere directly to the metal walls of my pole barn or ? ....

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dklopfenstein
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 125 Southern Indiana
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2005-01-21          104602


Yes it will, but you may want to cover the studs on the back side with house wrap in case you ever have to replace a piece of tin...that way, the expensive insulation will remain intact while fixing the damaged piece. ....

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drbandson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 25 Long Island,NY
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2005-06-03          111930


I had the icynene insulation system installed in my home about one year ago. I installed a 1500 sq ft addition to my 1500 square foot home. I framed the new walls with 2" x 6" studs, Removed the plaster on existing exterior walls and had real 2' x 4" studs. The icynene was applied to 5 1/2" deep on new portion of the home and 4" on existing portion of the home. The 2 x 12 roof rafters cavities were sprayed to about 8 to 10 inches thick, my vented soffits were in effect sealed shut and it was applied direct to underside of roof sheathing. The basement and crawlspace was sprayed to about 6 to 8 inches.

Well as i said a full heating season has passed since the insulation was applied. My heating bill this season is $400 dollars less than last year but last year I was only heating 1500 sg ft this year I heated 3000 sq ft (same boiler).

The unfinished attic approx 1500 sq ft remains only about 4 degrees cooler than the rest of the home, that was a real valued Bonus.

I own a construction co. in New York City and my home is on Long Island NY. I really rec"d this product. As far as the shingle lifespan being shortened I am not really concerned, try walking on a roof on a 90 degree day, the roof will stick to your shoes I don't think a couple degrees warmer is going to change the lifespan, as far as warranty goes it is alot warmer in Las Vegas than where I
am so I'm sure something could be resolved. But I never had to replace any roof for warrenty and I don't think I'll have to now. I believe this product has been around for 20 years.
It is important to vent baths and cooking areas though.
I would rec'd this product.
....

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steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
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2006-03-22          126565


I have a walk out celler that I am planning to redo as an apartment for my daughter, When I frame the walls can the spray on systems be installed against the concrete. Also will it help keepout moisture. I don't get a lot of leaks just a couple after bad rain storms. I do plan to frame this with 2x4s so I can at least insulate with fiberglass batts ....

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