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shortmagnum
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2005-10-28          118556

Something 2ndhandLion said last night prompted a question I have for anyone who wants to comment. He mentioned shortage or civil disruption. With some of the recent natural disasters I’m wondering if people should think a bit about being ready for those problems whether they’re caused naturally or politically. Things have gone so smoothly for so long that I’ve become complacent in terms of stocking up on anything for emergencies. So assuming there is potential for problems, what should people stock up on and how much is enough?
Dave


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yooperpete
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2005-10-28          118560

Sometimes I don't feel sorry for the victims since they are partially responsible for their situations. In the area that I live and work in, doesn't have earth quakes or hurricanes. Although, Tornadoes are a potential threat along with civil disturbances (national news has focused on the mid-Michigan area with all the recent shootings). Likewise, winter months and storms can cause power outages,etc.

I have strong feelings that one should take care of himself and his family while also helping friends and neighbors whenever possible. My feelings are that extra gas, generators, chain saws, axes, shovels, etc. along with some bottled water and canned foods, some ice and weather related protective clothing/gear should be on hand. I also feel an envelope full of cash can't hurt. Being an advocate of 2nd amendment rights, personal protection is also warranted and guaranteed by our constitution. I own pistols/rifles/shotguns in almost all common calibers or gauges with lots of ammo for each.

Regarding my earlier statement of people being partially at fault. If the Governor declares a State of emergency with mandatory evacuation and you don't go. Don't be crying about being left behind. If you are a tourist and have 3-4 days notice that a storm is coming, get out of town or the country. If you live in Tornado alley, extra housing considerations should be taken. Why would you live in a commonly stricken area by Hurricanes?

I also have an extra vehicle and maintain a 2nd residence 100 miles away from the primary not only for vacationing purposes but just in case. ....

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Denis
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2005-10-28          118564

Not much I can add to the last post except to say that we have a big problem here when most people (except for the folks who operate their own farm equipment :)) look at the government as a father-figure whose job it is to bail you out of trouble every time you screw up. In the good old days, people were smart enough to live on high ground to avoid floods; now Uncle Sam will bail these folks out every time the water comes up to their roofs. Hey, it's only taxpayer's money, who cares. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-28          118565

Awe crap! What did I do now!? ;O) In answer to your question, that is a not so simple answer. It is somewhat of a "Catch 22" in that the more stuff you store up, to a point, the more of a potential target you make yourself in the event of a civil disturbance. Running a generator is like ringing the dinner bell for looters and hoodlums. So you need to have on hand and at the ready VERY reliable and accurate weapons to protect yourselves and your property. In the course of an even small fire fight (God forbid) 1 shot in 10 hits its target at best (with most people who are not WELL trained) and it is not difficult to go through several hundred rounds of ammunition. Enough food, water, fuels, spare parts, first aid supplies, and ammunition to last you at the very minimum for 10 days in my opinion would be wise. Not everyone has the spare cash to do this so it is VERY important to have a plan with your neighbors to join together and help each other out. THERE IS SAFETY IN NUMBERS. MRE's are a VERY good source of long term storage food but are kinda pricey. Body armor is also another consideration if you can afford it. It is a sad state of our culture and nation that this type of preparation is needed but as many have seen in the news lately. The fabric of our nation is very frayed and not as strong as many thought. Friends of ours who were in south Mississippi when Katrina roared through were calling for fuel and ammuntion for the most part. Looting was rampant and what most folks don't realize is the horrible drug addiction problem in this nation is a strong driving force in this type of behavior as when the drugs run out, the addicts become VERY aggressive......... no.......... rootless in employing ANY means necessary to get more drugs or loot to trade for more drugs. New Orleans could happen ANYWHERE in this country. I do my best to help out my neighbors and others but I draw the line at the safety of my family. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-10-28          118566

I also have practically no sympathy for the folks in Florida right now. They had almost a weeks notice that a hurricane was headed their way. Being the 8th hurricane in 15 months, I would assume they are familiar with what happens afterwards and would take precautions based on that. Apparently I'm quite wrong in my assumptions based on the news reports.

I live in the country. When the weather's bad in winter, there is no going out. We have canned food that is usually good to last at least 3-7 days. I keep it on hand in case we run low and the nearest grocery store isn't that close. We also have a chest freezer that has a decent supply of food, but has run down lately. I had been getting a 1/4 beef and 1/2 a hog each year as it's cheaper. But the job insecurity for me (we're being bought out) has me holding back on that.

I usually have some gas on hand for the tractor as it's good to keep it around and handy rather than run out and have to run the 7 miles to the gas station in the middle of mowing the yard.

Because we live in the country, we keep a weather radio by the bed for those great midwest thunderstorms. We also keep flashlights by the bed and in the basement. Nothing worse than the power going out while your sitting on the can. We even have one that has a dynamo and a radio so it doesn't need batteries and you can get news reports.

We try to keep the cell phones charged up, especially during the summer when a storm may take land lines out. We also keep at least 2 days worth of water in the fridge, just because we like it cold. It's also handy in an emergency.

These are very basic precautions and are minimal at best. But they come in handy. When we lost our transformer 2 months ago, dinner was cooked on the grill (propane) and flashlights provided plenty of light. It really wasn't an inconvenience other than not being able to watch the Wisconsin football game on ESPN. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-10-28          118569

2ndhand - you posted your reply while I was typing up mine.

I live in the country which is different from most cities. My neighbors are a pretty good lot even though we are scattered. Everyone out here is armed. It's a tool for critters, hunting for food and sports, etc. The neighbors are likely to band together and help each other out when things go bad. We saw that when it flooded bad here a couple of springs ago. People helped move equipment and such out of the way and helped ferry people in canoes. We had no looting. But we aren't in a city.

Now my parents live in a large city. If a major event hit there, I'd be over there in a hurry trying to get them and the critical stuff out (papers, etc) as it easily could drop into mayhem. My folks would be fine as they are armed and have food supplies. But surprisingly few people in cities even consider how dependant they are on electricity and such. Gas station pumps run on electricity?

An example of how bad it is can be found in talking to some of the people that work in the call center of an appliance manufacturer. Someone actually called in because their washer stopped running in the middle of the load. Run through the basics, yes it's plugged in, etc. they run through the basics. Then the callcenter lady asks for the model and serial number so she can get an appointment setup for a tech to visit. They can't read the numbers because the light in the room doesn't work. The light in all the other rooms don't work. Why? Because the power is out. No connection what so ever in their brains.

So try telling these people a hurricane is coming so take preperations. Why do that? If I need gas I can run down to the gas station and buy it. No connection that if you don't have power, the gas station won't either. ....

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yooperpete
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2005-10-28          118570

The problem is, it is not feasible to have enough gas on hand to run a generator for 10 days or 2 months in the case of Katrina. Recently (couple years ago) when the power grid went out in Detroit covering a vast area, everyone came north to find gas. Gas stations with power a hundred miles north of Detroit ran out of gas within 6-8 hours of the outage.

If I was a tourist in New Orleans and there was no way to get out by car, bus, train or plane you know I would have bought a motorbike or bicycle to get out. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-10-28          118574

When we built our house we had one corner of the basement made into a 12x12 concrete fireproof room. That's where all the guns, ammo, canned goods, valuables, etc. get stored. We doubled the size of the propane tank, to 1000 gallons, so we can run the generator for probably six weeks if we duty cycle it. Lots of deer and elk around here so we can shoot for fresh meat. No real dependency on utilities, we have fireplaces for heat on every floor and are surrounded by forest. We built on top of a mountain so floods shouldn't be a problem. Our biggest threats are earthquakes. Moving back to the city would make me pretty nervous these days. Paranoid? Maybe, but I feel pretty safe. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-10-28          118575

I was thinking that in a worst case scenario cash might not be worth much or anything at all. Even putting away a few thousand dollars worth of gold or gold coins could at minimum get your family through the worst of it. Gold hasn't been a very good investment since I've been alive but then again shares of Ebay stock won't help you if the infrastructure fell apart.
Dave ....

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ncrunch32
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2005-10-28          118579

We probably have enough canned food to last a 1/2 year - not because of planning for a disaster but because my wife hoards stuff. We have a 30x60 foot basement so full I can barely weave my way through it. Our weakness for a long term situation is that I have a 8KW gas generator and maybe 20 gallons of gas on hand. I should have bought a diesel portable but they don't have enough KW for my wife.

The other weakness is, as you guys suggest, from NYC. If the city had to evacuate we would be over-run with looters and worse - and the first place they would go is my house. I have a few guns but not enough to stave off the millions of people that would be roaming through the upstate suberbs. I think the entire northeast would be in trouble then. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-10-28          118583

Most of the suggestions here apply to folk who have some discretionary income at hand. There are a LOT of folk (none of whom are participants of this board) who have very little. They certainly dont have money for generators and guns let alone ammo, in the event of a Katrina or the like they have no way of getting out - they dont have transport outside of that which is pubically provided. What most of you are doing is putting yourselves in their shoes and assuming that they will have the resources you currently have - they do not. These folk live pay check to pay check, some with assistance from the state. When life is disrupted they have NO ability to cushion the blow. What is clear is that most people on this board have limited understanding about the conditions under which these people live. ....

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ncrunch32
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2005-10-28          118584

AnnBrush, I believe the folks on this board understand very well people who have little income, and are exchanging ideas about how members of this board, who do have income, would cope with a potential disaster. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-10-28          118585

I'm not quite sure how this turned into a class debate, but people here have mentioned neighbor helping neighbor. I believe everyone here would help neighbors after they have taken care of their own families regardless of their social status. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-28          118586

Ann, I will have to sharply but respectfully disagree with you. Either you did not read my post all the way through or did not understand the "jist" of my message.

I will say it again.......THERE IS SAFETY IN NUMBERS. I realize and understand as good or better than most that not everyone has the good fortune and blessings many on this board do with respect to income and posessions. That is why we should and must all do our best to help out our neighbors and others as best we can. When neighbors have a plan and stick together, the responsibilities and amount of "stuff" to keep on hand can be shared.

Some folks are just flat out beyond help. What seems to be clear to me is that you have likely have not had to deal with methamphetamine addicts or other criminals who have no concept of the value of each individual life and would as soon shoot you as sit down an eat breakfast. Once you have been shot at or lived through a survival situation, I have a SOLID feeling you will truly understand what I am saying and perhaps see this world's goings on in a different light. ....

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oneace
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2005-10-28          118589

I whole heartedly believe that natural disaster are nature way of thinning the population, and for evolution. Stupid people do not head warnings = death. Smart people listen and do what is necessary to survive = live to procreate.

The dumb ones die as to not contaminate the rest of the population with more stupid people. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-10-29          118610

Even the poorest of the poor do have the ability to store water in containers at hand. Pot/pans, cleaned out milk jugs, cleaned out 2 L pop bottles, etc. It is possible for them to do that. Yet, it doesn't happen.

It is different for those who are poor. But the people in line for gas in Florida on the news were in $50k SUV's. They weren't poor. They may have been living paycheck to paycheck, but they weren't poor. They had the means and the time to prepare. They didn't and now they are complaining. I have no sympathy. ....

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DRankin
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2005-10-29          118622

The following is sure to raise the ire of the bleeding hearts:

I watched the New Orleans coverage with utter amazement. Did you see how many of these "desperately poor" people wading out of the flood waters weighed 400+ pounds?

Seems to me that anyone eating 8000+ calories a day to maintain that sort of body mass could put a little something aside for a rainy day.

But then you would first have to get past the entitlement mindset that says it is someone else's problem to care for them.

Let the fur fly........... ....

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ncrunch32
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2005-10-29          118623

I think we are wasting our money fixing up anything below sea level in New Orleans. I also believe we should stop bailing out the people in Florida every time there is a hurricane. My Grandfather grew up on Cape Cod - he used to row out to the whaler clipper ships and sell magazines to the sailors. When we went to the Cape he would say "GD fools that build on the water - they don't have any idea what can happen". We can't be subsidizing stupidity with our hard earned tax dollars. And to recreate the whole situation so it can happen again next year? ....

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harvey
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2005-10-30          118646

I've lived pay check to pay check. I've ate a lot of beans, rice and gravey at the end of the month. So I resent the comment I do not understand what it's like to be poor/broke. Well maybe I don't, but I got off my ass to do the best I can HONORABLY with out someone else paying for it.

I've never really considered myself poor, that is a welfarestate term anyway.

I've always payed my bills. I've never put my hand out, except in Alaska where the state gives away money.

It royally pisses me off when the Government bails out people in these sitituations so they can do it again. My frigging insurance rates are gonna raise again because of it.

I've accepeted and provided lots of volunteer help over the years and the steak(usually) meals and refreshments were provided. It would have been cheaper to hire it sometimes. But we worked hard ate good and shot lotsa bull.

ncrunch said it "we are subsidizing fools". But who is really the fool here?
....

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Iowafun
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2005-10-30          118655

Harvey makes an interesting point. Who are the fools? One of the problems is to get elected, you have to promise money and call it entitlement. So you get the votes vs the guy who proposes you use your common sense. So who you gonna vote for? The guy that says go get a job or the guy that says vote for me and I'll make sure you keep getting the money you are entitled to. ....

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kthompson
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2005-10-31          118684

Living just a few miles west of a major beach (Myrtle Beach, SC) having to pay attention to hurricanes and having hits my family has found it took little to be ready. Hurricanes are nice enough to give notice like the unwanted family member. We have always choosen to ride out the storms here, but knew when Hurricane Floyd at one time a 4 or 5 Cat was predicted to hit here we would not be able to and prepared to leave. Thank God it dropped greatly. There are several truths in most if not all of these messages. The better you know your neighbors, the better off all are. The better prepared you are, the better off all are. We do not live in isolated area as some (semi rurual) do but we citizens have cut trees out of the road because crews were busy on main roads (and yes their homes), we have moved generators from house to house to save food, we have stayed with family who suffered less damage. Yes the more farm, hunter, contractor type the people are usually the more they are likely to help just because they are use to and have the ability and do not know they are not suppose to. In all of the talk of New Orleans we will pay (sadly) for a major flood zone to be rebuilt when in my area FEMA said no money to rebuild in flood zone of much less risk than some of NO. Not only here but other areas also which just make sense. Now, voters, who do you vote for? Who, that is elected, have you communicated with? Why do you think we have millions coming across an open border as they are? Want a lesson in welfare state that many elected selfish people have trained millions for, go sit in your hospital emergency waiting room one evening. They are so filled with welfare and people who will pay not one cent (many are not legal citizens), yet those who keep such running are working with sickness often worse. Do notice you are not hearing the same "whinning" from the two staes east of NO where the main winds hit. They have had whole towns wiped out. The attitude is so different. God teaches we have responibility for ourself and others (a theme repeated often in these messages) and one practiced by early settlers. This has nothing to do with income or social class. It has to do with the class of the individual and that of the community's class. ....

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Peters
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2005-10-31          118688

I am not sure we know what common sense is any more.
We have the rich building on barrier islands that are nothing more than shifting sand.
We will spend billions rebuilding the rich homes on shifting sand. Yet a critical port for the Midwest, south and central US, NO, we don't want to protect, nor will we rebuild properly? Did no one take economics 101 at college? Where does the economic wealth really come from?
For example: despite the conservative republican back patting the cold war was not won by Reagan’s rhetoric or saber rattling. Gobachev writes he realized the fight was lost when he was agricultural minister and visited Eugene Whelan, Canada’s agriculture minister’s farm in Ontario. Gobachev knew that a countries wealth ultimately originate from the productivity of it’s farmers. When he saw the west’s farms he new it was lost. So friendship and hospitality of the farmer turned the man's mind.
We can not do without the port of New Orleans and the efficient transport of products to and from the country or the productivity of the Midwest farms would be pointless.
We can do without the rich building along the beach. Personally I would appreciate being able to walk around the beach unfettered with only the birds and other beach lovers. Is leaving these shifting sands to the birds such a bad idea?
If we follow history only once has a nation turned itself around, from decline to greatness. In this case one man started a reformation by riding around on a horse. He did this for 50 years. Turning one life at a time. He carried no weapons and faced many hardships. But then he was following God not man. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-10-31          118691

Peters, I don't think anyone disputes the fact that we need the ports of NO to reopen as soon as possible. What I don't want to see is the Feds putting up new housing 10-20 ft below sea level because some politician might get a few votes by saying "We must rebuilt."

NO has areas like the french quarter that are high enough on their own. The rest needs to be reclaimed by the swamp.
Dave ....

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Peters
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2005-10-31          118700

It is the difference between rebuild and rebuilt right. The Netherlands has spent large amounts of money developing and redeveloping areas for flood prevention. It has taken federal resolve and capital to accomplish the level of protection they have.
Here the development is authorized and then each government has its 4 year program life or rather 3 year as the last year is spent campaigning . Or more precisely 2.5 years as ½ the year is spent on the midterm elections. These types of projects take many more years to complete. What happened to the levee plan passed 40 years ago?
How do you think foreign nations view our bazaar flip flop politics and agendas? Reverting back to Gorbachev, when asked to go and meet with Reagan, he said “Why would he meet with someone that thinks of us as the axis of evil?” Someone had to explain to him that it was just American political grandstanding in an election year. Unfortunately most Americans are not astute enough to realize when the BS is being thrown. The media has taken the sound bites and feed it continually to us until we think of it as truth. Personally I despise the media spin left or right. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-31          118702

This terminology of "left" and "right" continually amuses & irritates me just a tad. These terms are improperly and unknowledably used so often that I think these terms have lost their true and intended meaning.

Those who's political views coincide with the founding fathers as they voted upon, approved, and intended the Constitution AS ORGINIALLY WRITTEN & intended including the original 10 bill of rights & NO OTHERS. Are actually moderate or middle of the road, not to mention true conservatives.


The left depending upon the degree of extremist idiology are socialists, social/communists, or hard core communists.

The right depending up the degree of extremist idiology are nationalists, or even further to the right groups such as the American Nazi Party or other ultra nationalist groups such as the Skin Heads.

The first fall into socialism, was the income tax which was unconstitutional & was levied in 1864 and stopped in 1872. Another income tax law was declare unconstitutional in 1894. Not until the 16th amendment was passed was a federal income tax considered constitutional but in actuality it is STILL unconstitutional, as are property taxes, and other taxes which are collected for use and other reasons but allocated to other totally unrelated expenditures.

The depression brought us the disaster of Franklin D. Roosevelt who during his nearly 16 year tenure perverted this nation into a "socialist Oligarchy", JFK & LBJ took this to extreme and undreamed of levels with the "Great Society". The current "dummed down" and socially addicted quagmire we currently have is the result.

This nation was settled and founded by rugged individualists who cherished above all things, there individual freedom and freedom from an overbearing and oppressive government.

I consider myself a moderate as well as a "strict constructionist constitutionalist" who firmly believes that we and this entire nation MUST change our course 180 degrees and get back to the basic principles that made this nation great and nurtured its birth.

The current Republican party (aka the "right") are actually socialists and the Democrat party (aka the "left") is the party of social communism and hard core communism. Basically separate parties of the left and extreme far left.

Anyhow.........having placed the terms of left and right in true and proper context (at least in my humble opinion)...........I am done...........to quote Mark..............now let the fur fly! ;O)
....

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kthompson
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2005-10-31          118706

I wish I could fully understand Mr. 2ndhandlion last comment. I think he is saying both parties are on the "liberal" slant one way or another. (As a left handed very consersative I don't appreciate left or right either.) We would do well to know and understand the history of this great nation. We are a people found on individual rights as to property and God. Not on the lack of either as the ACLU and other would have us think. The term "God Bless America" is more than just a wish. He has, more than any other country that has ever been. Now, again such as the ACLU is telling him to get out. Lets us ruin what has been created by many honest hard working people you bless. ....

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Murf
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2005-10-31          118708

Hmmm, not having waded in this thread, yet ..... I just read the whole thing from the beginning.

Only thing that comes to mind?

Article V: I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to THE PRINCIPLES WHICH MADE MY COUNTRY FREE. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

I got your back Randy! ....

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harvey
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2005-10-31          118722

Geeezzzzeeee Murf what a profound bit of wisdom. To bad we can't apply something like that today... ....

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