Go BottomYanmar 3000 hydrolics
 | Southerner
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 laurens,SC 
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2002-10-29 44398
Hello all, I am new to the forum. I have a Yanmar 3000 that has had a Bushhog brand front end loader added.With the addition of a loader,where should the oil level on the dipstick be? I would asume that more hydrolic oil would be needed to operate the extra equipment. Should the oil level be checked with the loader fully raised? Also I have a question concerning using the three point and the bucket at the same time. It seems to put the system in stess. Is there a rule of the thumb about doing this? Thanks, Tony
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2002-10-29 44402
Welcome aboard!
I don't have enough hands to run the loader and the 3 pt at the same time, since on both of my tractors all those controls are grouped together on the right side. But I can imagine there is only so much oil pressure and flow in the hydraulic system. If you split it up too many ways something has to slow down. So I guess the rule of thumb is to run one thing at a time.
I would check the level of hydraulic fluid with everything at rest (on the ground) and the engine off. If you are between the hash marks on the dip stick then you are good to go. Once all the lines and cylinders are purged of air then the fluid just cycles through the system.
Reference your question on the other posting: Your 3 pt hitch raises by virtue of hydraulic pressure, so it “powers up”. But when it goes down, it drops by gravity, and purges hydraulic oil as it falls. The valve beneath the seat on most tractors acts like a faucet or valve for the hydraulic fluid in the 3 pt system. If the knob is closed tight, the oil has nowhere to go, and the lift arms are locked in place and will not lower. If you crack the valve open and activate the lowering lever, it will lower very slowly (depending on the amount of weight the lift arms are supporting). If you open it more, the rate of fall increases, and if there is a lot of weight on the 3 pt arms, it can fall so fast that it can damage concrete slabs or the implement itself.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-30 44427
As Mark notes, the hydraulic oil level is checked and topped up with all cylinders retracted.
The reservoir is designed to have enough reserve to operate cylinders during operation. However, it doesn't take as much oil and retracting the cylinders doesn't change the level as might be thought. Most hydraulics except the 3ph use double acting cylinders that are powered in both directions. When they move in one direction oil is pumped into the cylinder, but oil that is on the other side of the piston is displaced and returns to the reservoir. However, charging new cylinders does take oil and it's good to remember checking the oil after charging a new implement.
There really isn't much chance of overloading the hydraulic system. It is protected by a system pressure relief valve and also safety relief valves. Many loader equipped tractors use something called a power-beyond hook up. The loader is in series with and ahead of the 3ph. Operating a loader control blocks the oil from going to the 3ph so it won't lift when the loader is lifting. When neither the loader nor the 3ph is lifting there is little pressure on the pump. Heavy loads (within the tractor's capability) can be on both the loader and 3ph. High pressures created by the loads are held by their control valves and protected from load shocks by safety relief valves.
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-10-30 44437
It seems to take about a gallon extra with a loader, depending upon the ram size of course. Yanmar recommends that with all the rams fully extended, the fluid level should not be off the dipstick. With the rams retracted, it should not be overfull.
Check to see if you have two hoses or three coming from your loader valve to the tractor. If only two, you are not plumbed in the best manner and your valve is probably just looped into the system without an actual power-beyond set-up. I've installed a lot of loaders, yet many others on this board have a lot more knowledge on hydraulics, so I am in no way expert on this. I can say that the power-beyond set-up is the best way to go on these Yanmars. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-31 44480
Dave brings up a point that I skipped to save space. There is a bunch of reading about power-beyond in the archives.
The loader valve likely has on hose on the inlet section and two on the outlet section. That is a power-beyond hook up and it's important to protect valve components in systems where valves on more than one assembly (including the 3ph) are in series and may be operated simultaneously. Generally power-beyond capability is required in such a setup but I believe there are valves that are built to withstand potentially high pressures in their outlet lines. I think such valves are uncommon though.
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| Southerner
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 laurens,SC
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2002-11-02 44561
Thanks alot guys. The info helped alot. I am going to ck more into the power beyond set up. Currently my loader valve only has two hoses coming from it.One of the problems I have seen that may be related to the two hose set up is, if I am holding up a heavy implement on the 3pt, the bucket operates alot slower as if in a strain, and that's really what I ment by using both front and rear at the same time.Again thank you much ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-03 44565
Without power-beyond, what likely is happening is that the loader and the 3ph are both lifting. That forces the pump to try and move both loads at the same time. Using both simultaneously should be avoided unless you know the loader valve is rated for this type of application. Many valve assemblies aren't designed for the pressures that can develop and may be damaged.
How it works in open centred systems is that the loader and 3ph are in series and oil circulates continuously from the pump to the sump. Operating any valve blocks the oil return path to the sump and opens passages to a cylinder. Pressure is developed and the load moves or the pressure relief valve opens.
Most loader cylinders are double-acting. There is oil on both sides of the piston so when the cylinder moves in one direction, oil on the other side of the piston is displaced and has to go somewhere. A PB valve provides a second return line directly to the sump for that oil. Without PB the displaced oil goes into the line that goes on the 3ph. If the 3ph is in lift, then the return line also is blocked at the 3ph and passages to the lift cylinder are open. There's no return path to the sump and the only place for oil to go is moving the loader and 3ph cylinders at the same time.
That's very likely what's going on but there's a good chance that the loader valve is designed for that application. I'd probably just keep what's there but avoid using both at the same time. Going to a PB loader valve would take a new valve assembly and the worst that likely to happen is to ruin the existing one, which could be replaced by PB type if it fails.
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-11-03 44570
Sounds like TomG has this figured out.
On the Koyker loaders that we sell, we install Dinoil Joystick valves and use whatever hydraulic kit Koyker recommends for the tractor. Some are PB, and some are not. We have had a couple of tractors without PB in which we could tell that the three-point and the loader were slightly fighting each other in certain situations. However, we have probably installed 60 loaders this year, most without PB and they work fine. I suspect the valve is made to take this load. I have noticed lately though that most of Koyker's newer kits use the same valve, but come with a PB valve and an extra hose. Now we have pressure in to the valve, pressure out to the three-point area, and a hose to the tank. I asked Koyker why they are changing and they mentioned that occasionally they have a problem with the non-PB system, so they are converting most of the kits to PB.
Seems I've added little info to the above, but perhaps it will assist others in plumbing there systems.
A warning though, don't mess around with different ports and hose configurations unless you know what you are doing. If you dead head the pump, you'll damage or ruin it in less than a second. Don't ask me how I know this.... ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-04 44582
Hope I've figured it right, but the explanation is theoretical. I for one would never discount the participation of anybody who's probably installed 100's of loaders. For me, you've confirmed that both type valve assemblies are used by the same manufacturer in the same application.
I don't know the explanation for a tendency to use PB types. Perhaps it's costs. I imagine that a PB valve assembly could be made smaller and maybe cost less since the exhaust galleys don't have to withstand system pressures. Without PB, a 3ph could lift when it's not expected, but I can't see a particular safety issue there. Don't know!
Regarding dead heading the pump: I've heard that the JD power-beyond kit for their back hoes use different sized fittings. That's probably so a hoe can't be connected backwards. I believe a backward connection dead heads the pump and can ruin it in a hurry. Since I run my hoe from a valve controlled rear outlet, I could connect it backwards.
To connect my hoe, I identified which cylinder hose gets pressure when the valve is held forward and the pressure hose for the pump. I used coloured plastic-tie straps on both to make sure I make the right connection. That also means that I have to make sure I don't pull the valve back while the hoe is mounted. It's a connection with some risk I guess.
If there's any doubt which cylinder hose gets pressure, the valve can be operated before connection is made while holding a hose. The one that gets pressure can be felt to stiffen. A practical tip from my dealer to balance out my theory back when I first got the tractor.
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| Southerner
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 laurens,SC
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2002-11-04 44588
It does sound as though you guys have it figured out.I probably would be better off with a PB valve. I will be doing alot of grading work with this tractor using a box scrape and the loader. While holding up the scraper inorder to pick up the dirt with the loader you can see which line the pressure is in easily. The dealer who put the loader on before I bought the tractor,well, didn't do a very good job.
I have had to rework all the mounting points, replace rubbed lines, and well , if the valve I ended up with was cheaper than the PB valve, that explains it. According to the prievious owner he has put a hydrulic pump on since adding the loader.The pump was over $300. I see that the valve would fail before the pump. This was all great info, thanks again ....
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-11-04 44596
3 point hitches do power in both directions if you have draft control.
Ben
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-05 44621
Ben: I believe that's true about draft control powering down, and there's a bunch of confused verbiage from me in the archives trying to figure it out. However, I'm not sure that even with minimum draft sensitivity, it's quite the same as holding down-pressure with a loader. I think there is a Russian tractor (Belaruse Sp?) that does have down-pressure available for the 3ph but I'm not sure how useful it would be. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-11-05 44628
This draft control item does surface on a frequent basis. I would bet you could line up 1000 compact tractors and not find one with draft control. Position control, yes, but not draft control.
Draft control is usually found on larger Ag tractors, and according to some on this board who have used it extensively, it is of questionable value even there.
My research on the topic does not indicate that it "powers down", rather that it uses various mechanisms to measure the strain between the tractor and it's ground engaging implement and when the strain reaches a pre-determined level it RAISES the plow (or whatever) until the strain reduces to the preset level and then allows it to lower again (by gravity) as the strain sensing mechanism seeks to find its optimum range.
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-11-05 44638
The Kioti DK series has position and draft control.
Ben
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-06 44657
Mark: I've never been certain if draft control actively or passively lowers to neutral when the draft is less than the sensitivity setting. I know that the part that triggers lowering is called a lowering spool in draft control valves while the equivalent part in position control is called a poppet valve. When I looked at oil flow diagrams in my repair manual I got cross-eyed real quick.
I must have been thinking about this thread yesterday. I recall that somebody mentioned that JD has a series of 'Fundamentals of Service' Manuals. I ordered one for diesel engines and one for hydraulics yesterday. It'll take about two weeks for them to get here and I'll post a comment about them. Hope they help sort this kind of question out.
My Ford repair manual describes both position and draft control operation for the draft control hitch so I think that's fairly common. There are some of my 'figuring it out' comments about how it works in the archives. Maybe the FOS manuals will get my FIO comments a little shorter.
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-11-06 44663
Tom, I was repeating definitions from the TractorSmart web site. They implied strongly in their examples that a plow lowers under its own weight and is driven deeper into the ground by the action of the mould board, not by hydraulic pressure. The link below can be used to review.
Ben, you are right of course about the Kioti DK series, but that begs another question that has been nagging at me. The DK’s, in size and weight, start where the Deere 4700 leaves off and the biggest DK hits the deck at 6000 lbs. Is this a compact tractor?
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-11-06 44664
Some of the Yanmars have draft control. It is operated by a second lever, next to the lever that raises or lowers the three-point. I know little about draft control.
On a similar but different subject, many of the newer Yanmars have "UFO", which is an automatic leveling system for the 3-point. I sold a very modern one Monday that had it. When enabled, it uses the hydraulic tilt in the back to constantly adjust the implement level. The implement has a sensor mounted on it. Many other neat features with this F-series UFO. You can preset the depth then hit a button and the three-point will lift a predetermined amount (handy when turning to rototil the next row), then touch the button again and it will drop back to exactly where it was. Lights on the dash indicate depth and inclination. When the tractor is put into reverse, the implement automatically raises. This backup feature is selectable with a button. Speaking of turning, this F235 also had "Quick turn". When enabled, the tractor functions as normal until you turn, then it turns on a dime, as if one brake is being applied, but not quite that severe.
I have only used the UFO on tillers, but it would be easy to mount a sensor on a leveling float. The downside is that the leveling takes a second to happen, which is fine when crawling along with a tiller, but I don't know if the reaction time would be adequate for it to keep up while grading. I have a few more tractors with this feature, and perhaps I will get time to experiment. ....
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-11-06 44665
Good question Mark, Where does a compact tractor end and a standard utility tractor begin ? The smaller Dk's are probably CUT's but the 50 HP and up I am not sure about. Is there a definition out there somewhere, or is this just a loose advertising concept.
Ben
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2002-11-06 44666
Tom, I have not tried it but it seems that down pressure on the 3 point could be very useful when using a post hole auger.
Ben
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-11-06 44667
I have never seen a Yanmar with draft control that also has down pressure. It would be handy for a PHD. Now we have to attach a downforce kit, which is about $300, if we want to dig in touch soils, especially when it is dry.
CUT cutoff? Not sure. I have a 50HP Yanmar, that is very compact, about 4000lbs with loader. I would say it is a CUT. It hauls nicely on a 7000GVW car trailer (load capacity of 5500lbs). I have an older 424 International with a loader that is about 30ish HP and must weigh 6000lbs or more. It is not a CUT. Not sure where the line is, but probably in the low to mid 40HP range would fit most people's idea. Certainbly if you can't haul it on a car trailer with a regular pickup, it is too big for my idea of a CUT. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-07 44693
Yikes! Sorry I accidentally started this up again. I think we did resolve the idea some time back. Now I recall that the conclusion was that draft control powers up under heavy draft but floats down (if that isn't an oxymoron) under light draft.
Now that I think about it, the idea of powered lowering doesn't make a lot of sense if the idea of draft control is to maintain constant draft. Down-pressure would increase draft and likely trigger the lift. It seems like the sort of positive feedback that would produce an endless lift and lower cycle unless the neutral valve condition was pretty wide.
My fault I didn't remember the conclusion. It's in my head but it's intellectual and probably won't be very real for me until I find a good oil flow diagram and actually see how the parts work. I hope these FOS manuals give me that.
I think the PHA down-pressure kits produce a few hundred pounds pressure and the kits are for a particular PHA. I suspect that's about the limit of force that would be a good idea. The full power of tractor hydraulics going into down-pressure doesn't seem like a good idea, but of course a relief valve could limit the pressure. But then, the amount of down-pressure would belong to the tractor but an appropriate force depends on a particular implement. Adjustable relief valve, possibly, but the chances for operator error would increase.
I don't know how good or useful the idea is. I did notice a yellow pages ad in our phone book for a tractor shop that advertises as a Belarus dealer. I think these are the tractors where some models have 3ph down-pressure. Maybe somebody at the dealer will talk to me about the hitch.
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