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Advantages of water filling rear tires on JD 790

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gbeckwi
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12 Pine Bluff, AR
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2004-02-16          77098

Have a John Deere 790 with R4 tires, when using with 5 foot box blade I can get it full of dirt before the tires start slipping (4WD) in most soil types and conditions. By filling to the 75% mark on the tires, tractor does have a front end loader on it, how much increased traction should I expect ? Also the tractor is used in hunting camp woods in soft mud would I get better or worse traction. Getting stuck in some location or old stump holes might mean a long walk, miles, for another tractor.
Advantages and disadvantages of filling tires with water ?
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Here in Arkansas no shop fills with calcium only antifreeze and water mixtures.


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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-02-17          77100

Why not try filling the FEL with a nice scoop of heavy dirt. It will even out the weight distribution and give the front tires some more downforce and "bite". I have done this when pulling a heavy trailer in melted snow and it works. I think you're front light so you may not REALLY be getting the benefit of 4wd when the box gets full of dirt. Filled rear tires may not help if this is the case.

If that doesn't work, I think I'd go with removable wheel weights instead so you only use it when needed. If you fill them you're stuck with them. My thinking is that filled tires may sink deeper in soupy mud and you get less traction with filled tires in the mud because the filled tires deflect less so you get a smaller footprint. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-02-17          77121

Water/antifreeze mixtures can be less than half the weight of a good calcium mix. Personally, I don't think that it is worth putting fluid in tires unless you really get a good weight benefit. I agree with F350 about the rear metal wheel weights. That may be your best choice.

R4 tires are pretty stiff in the first place, and R1 tires may be better for your mud, but R4s are good for harder surfaces. I am not sure that you will get much benefit by lowering the pressure in an R4, but it is worth a try. Be careful if you have to travel on any sideslopes, however, because low tire pressure can make it easier to have a tire come loose from the rim.

As far as traction is concerned, I am assuming that the rear tires are slipping rather than the fronts. You might need to experiment with 2WD to determine this. If you have trouble steering and general traction, loading up the bucket might help. But, if it seems that the rears are just slipping, then rear weight or another more agressive R1 tire may be the answer. With a rear draft load, you want most of the weight on the rear tires. Torque coupled to the ground through the rear wheels will tend to lift the front end or make it lighter. 4WD will restore steering and add traction when the front gets lighter. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-02-17          77127

Box scrapers are strange animals.

When they are riding around doing nothing, they are great for ballast and provide a big increase in rear traction.

When we drop them to the ground our traction increase instantly disappears. Worse.... then we fill them with dirt and they become the landlocked version of a sea anchor.

I have done the liquid thing and I have done weights. My impression with filled tires is that they aid more in stability than increased traction. Wheel weights are the way to go here. When your box blade bails out on you there is 300-400 extra pounds pushing directly on the rear tread.

I think my bro F350 is right on track too. Instead of looking for a scoop of dirt (not always one handy), I keep a bar stacked with used weight plates in the garage.

It weighs 300# and just rolls into the FEL bucket whenever I am doing jobs like box blading or chain-harrowing that tend to "unload" the rear end. ....

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gbeckwi
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12 Pine Bluff, AR
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2004-02-17          77191

Appreciate the advise from other JD 790 owners, in my situation when I am using the tractor I'll probaly be using the bush hog to cut stuff and having to use the FEL to move downed trees, etc out of the way, prob am going to try some water in the tires ....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-02-18          77196

I too think the rear wheel weights will help traction more than filling the tires, Mine surely helped. I also had the fronts foam filled as not to worry about flats no more, And it add about 80 lbs to each tires. That seems to keep them on the ground more and again front traction is enhanced. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-02-18          77207

If you are using the machine for bush-hogging, and a little FEL working moving debris during the cutting, why would you need extra ballast.

I can't recall seeing a BH that weighed less than a few hundred pounds, and they sit a few feet back which mulitiplies the effective weight.

I would think that BH is enough ballast for almost any debris that you might encounter. Besdies if the ground is tough the extra ballast translates to extra bounce over the bumps. Just my two cents (OK 1.3 US cents).

Best of luck. ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-02-18          77234

My hat is off to the "lawman" for the simplest and best solution. Absolutely no landscape professionals around here put calcium or anything else in their tires because weight is money when hauling the machine, and whatever else is needed, to the job site. The extra weight that is required for traction is almost always dropped into the FEL bucket, nearly everyone has MFWD. It is a hassle free solution that no one needs to fuss with if you find yourself in a situation where you need to get light in a hurry. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-02-18          77237

I must be missing something. I don't have a box blade, but I have a fairly large rear blade that I use. I know that they don't act exactly the same, but they are similar.

I completely understand what Mark was saying about the traction when the blade is on the ground and you are no longer carrying that weight on the rear of the tractor. But I am having a hard time seeing how putting weight in the FEL and moving the Center of Gravity even further forward would help this poor traction situation. Certainly the FEL weight might help keep everything balanced when the box blade is not digging, but once that box is digging and pulling dirt up behind the rear wheels, it is essentially a draft load like a plow. The weight of the blade is carried by the dirt and the rear of the tractor gets light.

I can understand why you would put weight in the FEL bucket if the front end was getting light, but if that is the case, I have misunderstood the original post. Maybe someone can help me out here. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-02-18          77239

Mike, I think the point you're confused over is that you're thinking people are trying to say that adding weight to the FEL will improve REAR WHEEL traction. Of course it won't, it will make it worse by shifting the C. of G. forward.

What it will do is markedly improve FRONT WHEEL traction. The combined pulling force then of both front and rear wheels will be higher than before, resulting in higher over-all traction.

Clearer now?

Best of luck. ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2004-02-18          77240

I agree with AC, before I loaded my rear tires , with no counter weight on the 3 point I could barely keep the rear tires on the ground with a full bucket.
Now if the boxblade is on the ground and the rear tires are not loaded, filling the bucket removes any remaining weight from the rear wheels .

....

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gbeckwi
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12 Pine Bluff, AR
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2004-02-18          77242

Guys, appreciate the input, my point is that when using the box blade and it gets pretty full, I get rear tire slippage, where if I had more tractor weight to exert a downward force then I would get more traction for doing dirt work. But what are any disadvantages to having the R4's liquid filled in other situations. I'm not concerned about a rough ride, b/c if I dmg a rear tire I will prob replace it with the 12-ply titan anyway, its only a few dollars more than the 6-ply. ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2004-02-18          77243

I loaded my rear tires and increased traction as well as making the tractor much, much more stable doing loader work on uneven ground. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-18          77245

12 plys may get less traction than the 6 ply tires. Tires need some flexibility in the tread to conform over uneven surfaces, and the more plies the less flexibility there is.

Loading tires is cheaper than wheel weights and you don't have to mess with installing and removing weights and/or other ballast since the weight is always there. On larger tires you can get a lot more weight by loading tires than you can with wheel weights.

The disadvantage is that loaded tires are very heavy to work with, the tire flexes less than unloaded tires so that could negatively impact traction in some situations, you can't remove the weight in circumstances where you don't want to compact the soil (like mowing), and repairing a leak is a lot more work. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-02-18          77248

Thanks for the responses to my question, but if the rear wheels are losing traction, then I certainly would not put weight up front if it was my tractor. Your experience may be different from mine.

When that box is full, you have a pretty heavy load on the tractor. I stick by my original suggestion of rear weights. If they don't use calcium where you are, then do the best you can with what is available.

I have done a lot of heavy pulling with tractors.(plows and big wheeled box scrapers) If you are getting traction, it will lift the front end off the ground; just like the professional competition tractor pullers. Just like the professional pullers, you want just enough weight on the front of your tractor to keep the front end on the ground and enable steering at your full draft load. FWD enhances your ability to steer even with a light front end, but it is not intended to provide a major part of the traction.

Maximum pull from a tractor is with >90% of the weight on the rear wheels alone. This only happens if the CG is shifted rearward while pulling. That means rear wheel weight and perhaps even removing the FEL. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-02-18          77251

I could have been clearer in my recommendation. If your front wheels are not maintaining enough traction to steer properly, add weight in the bucket.

When I pulled the chain harrow with the BX, especially uphill, I had very little or no steering control because the front wheels were being pulled off the ground. Put 300# in the bucket and presto.... you get your steering back.

The new 4115 has not displayed this problem yet, probably due to it longer wheel base(10 inches longer than the BX) and greater weight.

In any case, using front ballast before adding ballast to the rear is silly and counterproductive.

The BX had the maximum wheel weights spec'd by Kubota installed and the 4115 carries 150# of steel plates on each rear wheel.

All the time. I never take them off.

If I am going to use the loader to move dirt I add several hundred additional pounds to the three point hitch.

If you have your rear wheel weights installed, and you are maintaining steerage on the front end, and you are still experiencing rear wheel slippage to the point your ground speed goes to zero............ the only thing left is to not fill the box scraper that full.
....

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gbeckwi
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12 Pine Bluff, AR
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2004-02-18          77266

Appreciate the feedback, does anybody have any overall general tips about a JD 790, maintenance, etc, problems, that I need to be aware of. I'm coming up on the 50 hour service ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-02-19          77287

Mark, I agree with you 100%. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-02-20          77442

"I think my bro F350 is right on track too. Instead of looking for a scoop of dirt (not always one handy), I keep a bar stacked with used weight plates in the garage."

With 6 horses their is always a scoop of heavy...err..."dirt" available, and it's free!

I can even loan ya' some :) :)

The weight bars don't attract flies so maybe your solution does have some added benefits. I mentioned to the manager at the health club that any old weight plates would be great to have, maybe when they upgrade I can snag some CHEAP.
....

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