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Randy
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-07-09          29900

First, thank you all for the information you have shared about compact tractors.For the past 20 years I have operated a Ford 8N. I have been satisfied with it performance, however I have found that it is geared a little high for some operations. Last week on my birthday my wife said if you want a new tractor why don't you get one. After looking over too many choices I selected the Kubota L3000.I looked at a 15 year old Ford 1710 with 1100 hrs. which the dealer wanted $9,800 for, it had very cracked read tires. The price was more than what this tractor sold for new.I figured in another 15 years this tractor would not be worth as much as I paid for it. So I decided to invest a few thousand more in a new tractor that might be worth what I paid for it in 15 years. My question is, what are the care, feeding, and operational differences between an old low RPM gas engine and a new disel ? Thanks,Randy

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Peters
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2001-07-09          29929

One requires diesel and the other requires gasoline.
One requires diesel engine oil to prevent soot and keep it clean and the other require reqular oil.
One requires you to keep the tank from empty and the other would happily run until dry.
One requires a good air filter to keep the injectors clean and the other will happily chew dirt.
Is this a test?
Peters ....

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Randy
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2001-07-10          29956

Thanks for the input. No, this was not intended as a test. I have not had any experience with diesel engines. With my old Ford 8N I don't run the engine RPM's any higher than necessary, more throttle is not always better in my estimation. The 8N has a good low RPM torque.
I don't want to operate the diesel engine is a manner that is going to hurt it. I know running it out of fuel is a bad thing, letting it overheat is not good either. I have run my 8N for about 20 years now and it is starting to burn a little oil. I would like to get 20 years out of the diesel engine before it has to be rebuilt. I thought there was maybe a little more difference between the two than the type of fuel.
....

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Peters
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2001-07-10          29966

The newer diesel engines are better balanced and turn faster than the older ones, but so are gasoline engines.
Better balancing, better metal combinations in wear points and better engine oils have increased the life of the engines despite the increase engine speeds. Your average auto engine will get more than 150,000 miles. What can you as the owner change? Only the oil. With a diesel it is best to change it when needed. Most wear occurs at the point of start up before the oil pressure and oil splash have lubricated things. As the oils break down they loose their film forming properties increasing wear at this critical point.
If you take care of the Kubota, the engine should last much more than 20 yrs.
I understand your apprehension as I had a Old Oliver Super 55 gas before I bought my first diesel. Now I have one in the truck and three in the tractors.
Peters ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-07-11          29982

Give it a good warm up at a fast idle, and it's pretty good idea to give it a cool it down as well. Diesels don’t warm up much below 1500 rpm. They also may cool down in operation if lugging around at low rpm doing loader work. High enough rpm should be used to keep the engine in its operating temperature range. Running a cool engine isn’t good. Change the anti-freeze every two-years (some diesels are subject to water jacket erosion from cavitation. New injector pumps probably are engineered for low-sulfur fuel, but use of a fuel conditioner isn't a bad idea. Many fuel conditioners also contain an anti-gel additive. Number 2 diesel gels in cold weather, which is a mess. If it's a cold climate, make sure it has a block heater. I also use magnetic heaters on the hydraulic oil sump and a battery blanket. Batteries are important on diesels, because a diesel has to crank fast to start. Battery terminals should be cleaned regularly, and warm batteries work much better. I ended up with a 15-year old 1710, but I expect to still be driving it in 20 years even if NH continues to reduce parts support for Fords. ....

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Randy
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2001-07-11          29985

I live in New Hampshire where the temps. can be pretty low at times. The tractor comes with a block heater, but the battery and hydraulic heater sound like good advice. The RPM and temp. connections explain one of the reasons why I see others run their diesel engines at higher RPM's when warming them up.
My tractor should arrive the end of this week. Thanks for the advice. ....

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TomG
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2001-07-12          30008

A couple of further thoughts on cold weather operations: I'm in Northern Ontario where it also gets cold. The anti-freeze to use should be diesel rated. I use a NH 0W-30 engine oil recommended by my dealer and a multi-season hydraulic (NH F200 or equivalent). Never use ether starter fluid--especially in an indirect injection engine with glow plugs. Start with the hand throttle 1/2 - 3/4 open. Higher starter settings act as kind of a diesel choke. Keep the fuel tank topped-up during the winter to reduce condensation and store fuel in standard sealed plastic containers or tilted bulk drums with condensation drains. I switch to #1 diesel fuel during the winter and also use a conditioner/anti-gel. #1-Diesel has a lower gel point than #2, but it does produce somewhat lower power. Most of the time I'm on ice, and power isn't the problem. Despite all this cold weather stuff, I haven't had a bit of trouble with cold weather starts. A couple of hours on the block heater and it fires up just like summer. ....

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Randy
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2001-07-12          30018

The diesel fuel available at gas stations around here is supposed to be formulated for the season. The tractor dealer recommended diesel fuel from the local gas station and not to use home heating oil, I don't know what numbering system they fall under. I didn't realize starter fluid was a bad thing. Thanks for the advice, I am sure I have a few things to learn by experience. However, what I can learn from someone else's experiences is all the better.
Thank you for taking the time to share what you know, I will do the same as I can. ....

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TomG
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2001-07-13          30040

#2 diesel is fuel, or furnace, oil while #1 diesel is stove oil, or kerosene. Bunker oil is heavier than #2. Somebody did some research awhile back and posted some gel and flash points of several typical summer and winter blends. As I recall, the gel point of some winter #2 can be as high as 15F while the gel point of #1 is -25F. It gets colder than -25F here. It is possible that some fuel dealers now use the same anti-gel agent that is in the fuel additives, or they may just use methanol. I use #1 plus a conditioner/anti-gel because it’s cheap insurance and #1 starts easier in the cold. I also need the extra injector pump lubrication for my mid-80’s tractor. Anyway, I agree with the dealer that highway (undyed) fuel from a station is easiest and also probably is adequate. However, it is good to get some certainty around winter fuel. Cleaning up gelled fuel is a mess I hear. It’s good to use a high volume station or a trusted small dealer. Some small dealers may have summer blend fuel in the tanks for much of the winter, and the attendants may not know the winter blend gel point or even when their distributor starts supplying winter fuel. Some small dealers may end up with condensation in their tanks, which can cause starting problems and also promote algae growth. Cleaning up algae is even messier than cleaning up gelled fuel, but unlike cleaning up gelled fuel, at least it probably would be warm. ....

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Randy
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2001-07-13          30049

I seem to remember an instance when a person from southern New Jersey in their Volkswagon diesel rabbit visited the people who were renting the house next door to me. The temperature got down to -25F that night. The next morning the car started but ran only seconds. They were told the problem was the diesel fuel from the south turned to gel, and to add a few gallons of gasoline to the tank. It worked, but I don't know if it was the best thing to do. Now I have a question; If I obtain some cold weather additive then add it to fuel that has already been treated for the season could I be creating a problem??

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2001-07-13          30051

There seems to be a little confusion (or maybe I'm the only confused one..) but when diesel fuel 'gells' it is not a permanent transformation of the liquid into a semi-solid. The process that actually occurs is just that the parafin (wax) that is always present to some degree in the feul starts to congeal into a solid causing the fuel to thicken, when the temperature of the fuel goes back up the fuel goes back to it's prior consistancy, sort of like water to ice and back to water, except it is only one component of the fuel that changes. The 'winterized' fuel just contains additives which help lower the point at which this takes place. Best of luck. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2001-07-14          30061

For what it is worth generally your diesel from your service stations is formulated for the season... that said make sure it is from a branded supplier (mobil, exon, shell etc) that moves alot of fuel. Home fuel/furnace oil is exactly the same as diesel except it has red dye for nontax purpose. BUT oil companies hate problems with their customers having problems with outside tanks and fuel gelling and a no heat call so they may cut fuel oil for heating with up to 50% or more of kerosene. Now if you have this and use it during the summer your engine may run a little hotter than it should plus the lubrication from the fuel is not there. My supplier fills my tank in the early spring with straight heating oil and early winter with cut. If you use heating oil just ask your supplier if its cut etc. Then you know if you need to add additives. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-07-14          30064

I've no experience with gelling--perhaps because I take precautions. I have heard it both ways. That gelled fuel does ungel when it warms up, and that it doesn't. Maybe we can get a definite conclusion here. On the other hand, it's fairly certain that anti-gel additives prevent, but don't cure, gelling. They are added to fuel when it's warm. The NJ diesel car probably was lucky, but maybe gasoline does dissolve paraffin crystals. I think a fairly common practice way back when was to add some gasoline to diesel to create a winter fuel, but that's probably something to avoid. I think I used a term incorrectly yesterday. I said gel-point when I should have said cloud-point. Cloud-point is the temperature at which paraffin crystals start to form. The fuel appears cloudy. A more common problem than the fuel actually gelling is that paraffin crystals form and clog the fuel filter. That's probably what happened to the NJ car, and perhaps the gasoline made just enough difference to get it started. If there is an aversion to using additives, kerosene is better than gasoline for cutting fuel. As I understand, the problem with kerosene is that it is too highly refined to be a good diesel fuel. Sulfur helps engine and injector pump lubrication, but kerosene has very little sulfur content. My heating oil distributor also supplies all the area's hospitals and other facilities that have emergency power generators. The contracts all specify #1 diesel year-around. I'm guessing that if he cuts his furnace oil during the winter, he uses #1 diesel rather than kerosene. However, I'd just as soon people with outside tanks dealt with their own problem since cut fuel means everybody gets fewer BTU's for the price ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2001-07-14          30077

I see a miss understanding, MY Fault. Idid not mean to infer that all fuel is cut. They know their routes and do a 1200 gal load to do their deliveries to that crowd with outside tanks. For me I have no grumble about prices. I uusally lock in at $1.09 per gal, last year it was up to $1.16. So you can see why I do not fool with cans and spilled fuel in vehicles transporting. Government contracts make no sense when they dictate one type of fuel for two entirely different regions and uses. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-07-15          30091

Harvey: I've wondered about the outside tanks from time to time but never pondered it much. It's a funny trick of mind. On one hand I know that #2 diesel and furnace oil are the same, and I know that #2 diesel can gel. I never really applied the gelling problem to outside furnace oil tanks (ours is inside). Your comment probably clears up a minor mystery of why the furnace oil delivery trucks don't go door-to-door. We get a delivery and sort of expect to see the truck pull into our neighbours but it zooms off up the highway. The next day or two, our neighbour gets a delivery. 'Cause the distances here are pretty long, I've wondered: 'Why all the driving around?' Guess the answer is the routes are more complicated than they seem. I wasn't really grumbling about price, but rather observing that the prices of furnace and stove are similar here, but stove oil has fewer BTU's per gallon. Heating costs probably would be higher if furnace and stove oil are blended so the outside oil doesn't gel. Oh yes, government contracts seldom make sense. ....

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Paul S
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2001-07-16          30128

Harvey, I thought that the "dyed" and "undyed" fuels were very different. Not only is it for tax purposes, but the dyed fuel is a higher sulfur content. I try not to use fuel from a regular gas station because I would rather run the higher sulfur fuel which is better for the engine. ....

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Richard Harburn
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2001-07-16          30140

Here are some additional thoughts on the diesel fuel thread. "Gelled fuel" refers to wax particles in the fuel - at least in moderately cold climates. These will immediately clog the fuel filter and there is nothing you can do except warming the fuel (move the vehicle inside if possible). Changing filters will let the motor run - for a very short time - until the new filter clogs. Years ago, Volkswagen recommended mixing regular gasoline with the diesel in cold conditions. I believe that this makes the cylinders run "dry" so I have always used fuel conditioner in my trucks and tractors. One winter I pulled into a service station with the truck engine starving for fuel and added some kerosene to the tank. The motor smoothed out immediately (the return lines circulate a lot of fuel) as the kerosene "loosened up" the diesel fuel and it could get thru the filter. About ether - it will absolutely damage an engine with glow plugs. I've heard about people using it but they disconnected the glow plug relay before turning the engine over. If the ether hits the hot glow plug when the piston is coming up, it is like a bomb going off in the cylinder and can bend connecting rods and do major damage. One last thing - buy fuel where the truckers buy it. That means that the fuel turns over frequently and has not been sitting in a small tank for a long time. Also - never assume that the fuel is adjusted for winter conditions. That depends on what the distributor has and is why I have always used conditioner. This all pertains to the mountains of Western North Carolina where it can get very cold but nothing like Canada or the nouthern U.S. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2001-07-17          30153

Paul you are correct. During the winter we were going to Cananda, for the past 3 years, and loading asphalt products along side the fuel and gas haulers. A very intresting process! For asphalt it took 3 tankers to clear the line of a product. By the fuel oil island there set a "red dye" injection unit. It activated when the product code called for it. Can not say proof positive fuel came from same vat, refinery process would dictate not. But.... ....

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TomG
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2001-07-17          30159

Regarding the sulfur content of off-road highway and diesel: I think the situation is that highway diesel must be low-sulfur while off-road diesel can have higher sulfur content, but I believe it often is the same except for added dye. The more highly refined low-sulfur fuel would be more costly, but it also would be costly for a fuel distributor to maintain separate refining, storage and delivery facilities for off-road fuel. It might be cheaper to just add dye. I read a comment once that seemed to make sense. He said that even if off-road diesel came from a different refining process than highway diesel, the sulfur contents still wouldn't be too different. If the sulfur content in fuel was too high, then it would pay the refiner to recover the sulfur. The comment applied percentages to the sulfur content, but I don't remember them. I generally use off-road fuel, but because it may be low sulfur fuel, and I have a mid-80's tractor, I also use fuel conditioner. ....

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Randy
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2001-07-17          30169

The dealer where I bought my tractor recommended not using home heating oil because they felt it did not have the lubricating properties that diesel fuel has. They also recommended a cold weather additive when the weather turns cold, you never know just when the fuel gets treated by the supplier. Even if it is treated they said a little extra will no be harmful, it is better than dealing with gelled fuel. A friend of mine owns an excavating business, he has two tanks for diesel fuel. One is dyed a red color, off-road, and the other is fairly clear, highway use. The only difference he has mentioned is the price, there are no highway use taxes on the undyed. The DOT checks truck tanks now and then for dyed fuel and there is a stiff fine if the fuel is not the right color. I think it is pretty good advice to purchase diesel fuel where the truckers get it.
Thanks for all the advice about fuel. My new Kubota L3000DT arrived this morning. ....

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Norm
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2001-07-17          30186

A couple of years back I made the switch to heating oil for my JD755. Cost was not the main issue but a nice side benefit. For me, the convenience of dipping into my 550g tank rather than running to a station is the point. I use a good fuel additive with anti-gel components, which I would use anyway. It increases lubricity, stabilizes the fuel in case any moisture gets in, and ensures me that I am not going to gel up in the winter. I have had no problems burning this fuel. ....

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Randy
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2001-07-18          30211

I was reading through the owenres manual for my Kubota L3000DT last night. There was a section on fuel, the recommendation by the manufacturer was use #2 fuel above 14F and #1 fuel when the temperature drops below 14F. They also specified the composisition characteristics of the what they recommend as the proper fuel, sulfur percentages and a bunch of other stuff.

The most important thing they stresed in cold weather was letting the tractor warm up sufficently before working it. Especially the transmission/hydraulic oil. ....

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