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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2000-12-06          22183

We had our first significant snowfall yesterday. I packed the base a bit with the tires and then tried my old 6' lightweight rear blade on the driveway. The only thing I noticed different from last year is that the industrial tires don't seem to grip as well on packed snow as the turfs did. Looks like I'll be installing chains, I was quite surprised with the performance. Has anyone else had this same experience? My feeling is that the harder rubber compound in the R4's may be costing traction over the turfs.

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-06          22184

Cutter, I'm fortunate to not have to worry about snow and ice, but I would have thought the R4s would have better traction (in snow at least) than the turfs. I'm wondering about what air pressure you're running in those R4s. If they are a bit overinflated, won't that hurt your traction? ....

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cutter
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2000-12-06          22185

No, Bird Senter I don't think they are. 20# rear and 30# front with the loader on. I was very surprised, I did raise the pressure slightly due to added implement weight, but they are still not at their max.. Believe it or not, the turfs were much better in this type of snow but terrible in the wetter stuff. I had a truck with a heater and plow before and never had to be serious with the tractor/blade combo. I'm learning this compact business like every other one, the hard way. ....

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mbjacobs
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2000-12-06          22188

cutter, I'm running 9 psi in my 17.5x24 R4's with no problem and I think they could be run lower but I'm a little nervous about trying. ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-06          22191

Cutter, I don't remember what size tires you have and how much weight you have on them, but that sure sounds like high air pressure to me. I think mbjacobs has a better idea, and maybe some others with R4s will respond. My little B2710 has R1 (ag) tires and on the sidewall of the tire shows 35 psi max "to seat the bead", but 16 rear and 24 front for max load. I'm running 12 in the rear and 16 in the front unless I'm going to be doing heavy loader work and then I boost the front ones to 24. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-07          22203

Cutter there are some good notes above, we just set up a new tractor with R-4's and I had the rears at 9lbs before they looked right. The front tires where about 17 lbs and there was a loader on it and they worked fine. You should have a full or nearly full tread on the ground to have the tire presure right. The air pressure listed on the side is the Maximum tire inflation for assembly or to set the bead. ....

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Murf
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2000-12-07          22208

Cutter, as someone who has several compacts that plow snow I can tell you that your suspicions are correct, you DID get better traction with the turf's than with your R4's. The reason is relatively simple physics, the traction a tire gets (on solid ground) is mostly a function of the EDGES of the lugs 'biting' in as they come around and contact the ground, therefore the more lugs (on the turf's) you have, the more traction you will get. The complicating factor (as you already discovered) is that if you are in wet, heavy snow, the treads may pack full of snow, effectively eliminating the edges, and the traction. This can be greatly reduced with a large amount of 'Armour-All' or similar which will help make the tire release the snow from the treads easier, so will lower tire pressures a little, which will cause more tire flex, releasing debris. The ultimate solution, if you are not operating on pavement that matters (asphalt, concrete, or pavers) is to 'stud' the tires, like people used to run on their cars in the 'old days' (sorry Roger...) they are WAY superior to chains, especially if you have to 'drive' the machine very far, or very fast, since there is no tire chains 'flapping' around. The best ones are now readily available for people who race either cars or motorcycles on ice. They are like sheet metal screws made from carbide-like material and the ridge around the edge of the head is more pronounced, and very sharp. You just screw one into the center of each lug (on turf's, several on each lug of R1' or R4's) where they will contact the ground using a drill with a bit-driver tip. You will not believe the traction you will have, especially on frozen ground. Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2000-12-07          22209

Thank you all for the advice. I think I will lower the pressure back to my summer specs, which is 12rr and 20frt and see what the footprint looks like with the loader on. It appeared to be good contact, with full tread width in the snow last night. I did check for that. I have chains that may fit the front tires. Will drive line damage occur by having them only on the front? The studding idea sounds good but may not work so well for mowing, I don't know. ....

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Murf
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2000-12-07          22210

Cutter, I dont leave the studs in year-round..... it takes 10 min. to put them in or take them out. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-07          22211

Cutter when I first heard of someone doing that it was one of my farm customers about 15 years ago. I haven't found anything bad about it yet as much as I cringed at the thought of it at first. It was at first to be cheaper than the rear chains which it was, plus is on your steering axle it helps you go the way you want to. I know of the screws that Murf is talking about and I never thought about Armour All but I believe both are great Ideas especially the studs instead of chains. That is as long as they aren't to long! ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-07          22214

OK, here is my vote for chains on turfs. I run them on all tire or sometimes just fronts or just rears. The fronts only because they are so quick to put on if you have a loader to lift the front. The front chains are cut down automotive type and the rears are modified down light truck. Of course they really shine on ice and deep snow, but I also use them to save my tires on hard rock surfaces. Yes, one tractor has turfs and the other has Ags, but both require chains to use them well in the winter. Once I put them on I leave them till Spring. I'm Not going to be doing work that would be hurt by chains at this time of year anyway... ....

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cutter
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2000-12-07          22218

As always, the problems are diagnosed and solved on this board. I like the quick remove front blade and snowblower idea as well. Where are these old truck plows when you want them? I'll have to do some scouting this weekend. Thanks for all the ideas. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-08          22227

I think I'd need chains for my turfs if I was mostly plowing instead of blowing. I do OK on frozen gravel without chains, but I could use a little more steering sometimes.

I'll note that two dealers told me that using chains on the front wheels only in 4wd (on frozen gravel) is hard on the front drive train. The idea is that extra traction on the front wheels 'grabs' some of the load that ordinarily would be placed on the rear wheels. However, I've heard several knowledgeable people in addition to Roger say they've used front only chains for years without problems. I can't really sort this one out on my own but I guess it's something to think about.
....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-08          22229

I haven't done any calculations, but I'd be inclined to agree with those dealers, Tom. In spite of the fact that I do it differently and have on and off for 20 years. Putting chains only on the front does shift some of the gear-twisting load that would normally be carried by the rear end. And that front drive shaft is not overly stout to start with...
Having said that, I doubt if any load I can develop on the front drive train using turf tires+chains in snow is as large as what they are designed for..... Assuming that they were designed for a max loading to occur with Ag tires in soft dirt with a loader bucket full of the same.
Still, I agree with those dealers. If you run front chains alone then you should pay attention to what you are doing.


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DFB
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2000-12-09          22263

I've been following this thread with interest because I would think lower pressures certainly would give more surface contact. But what happens to the tires' weight carrying capacity? If you cut the maximum load psi in half would the load rating be reduced 50% too? Additionally I've been following a thread on another board and it was pointed out that some tires did not have a weight rating on them . Well guess what, looked all over my tires too and there is no maximum load capacity stamped on them either. Never seen this before. With any tires I've had there always has been a load rating at a given air pressure. Does any one have load ratings for these tires or know where I could find the info on them. They are TITAN R4's 12-16.5 rear and 23x8.50-12ss fronts ....

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cutter
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2000-12-09          22272

DFB, it seems the pressure is guided by the load and not to exceed maximum the listed. I pressurized according to the footprint for mowing and tried to do the same when I installed the loader. A tire guide would help, especially when installing various implements. I raised my rear from 12# to 20# after installing loader and rear blade which is still 10# below max rating. I used a sheet of stiff paper on a cement floor to determine pressure this summer and the snow snow footprint this winter. Being involved more in highway machines, I may have unwittingly stuck closer to max pressure for this tractor because we have to worry about heat buildup on over the road equipment (and your family car), and it is ingrained into me. It appears not to mean a whole lot with these tires. What I have taken from these posts is that the footprint is more important than other considerations, except exceeding max. pressure rating. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-09          22276

When setting tire pressures it is also important that the tire pressure is not to low. In bias tires you can wind up with broken side walls if you run to low of air pressure. You need to run tires to have as full of ground contact as possible but not to the point of being so low the tires side wall is bulging out. As I've said before the max pressure on those tires is for the installers for bead seating only for there safety. ....

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cutter
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2000-12-09          22277

As always, you make a good point Art! Those of us unfamiliar with the tractor business benefit immensely from your knowledge. I have a 40 year old tractor with calcium in the tires (been in it for many years). Would you recommend replacing that fluid with something else? The parts for this machine are not so readily available any longer and I would hate to ruin the rims. OR?? should I leave a sleeping dog lie, so to speak. Thanks, Cutter. ....

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cutter
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2000-12-09          22278

One more question, Art. Front end load was discussed earlier in reply to my inquiry regarding the use of chains on the front end only. I am still a bit confused. On a constructon machine, say a 580CK with hyd. and 4wd, if you were on hard pack dirt and ran the loader into a pile of stone in f.w.d. until the machine stopped due to load, wouldn't you be placing the maximum torque or stress on the front drive that the machine had to offer? I would think that you should be able to place as much load on that front axle as the machine can give it (without abusing it) and not do damage. I wouldn't think that rear axle traction would determine the breaking point of the front axle if it were different. I may be all wet here, and don't abuse a machine by any means but have heard a couple of disturbing remarks on this subject. I am unsure what to do at this point. I have front truck chains that will fit. Thanks again. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-09          22279

Cutter I like old dogs. The best bang for the buck is the calcium. Just curious but are your rims rusted thru? The first place they do is at the valve stem, often we just weld that hole closed and make a new one in a different spot. The rims will be available for 40 year old tractors for a long time as most of them are interchangeable from make to make. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-09          22280

Cutter I know I said this earlier to someone some where that I have farm customers that have been using chains on the front over 20 years actually with no noticeable wear. If you were to be coming up onto hardpack and allowing the tires to spin in one spot, than you might very well hurt your front end. Many of the front ends like on a Case 580 I believe have clutches built in that will release if they are overloaded so not to put too much stress on the drive lines. Compact tractors to the best of my knowledge do not have them. They are normally found when the four wheel drive is electrically engaged but on some of the older mechanically they to had them. ....

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cutter
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2000-12-09          22283

No Art, they are not. Just appear to be corroding at the stems as you guessed. ....

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DFB
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2000-12-10          22293

Found alot of info over at Goodyear tire including load inflation tables and tire peformance worksheets. The loads given for my rear tire size 12-16.5 (couldn't find the fronts)are 4220@40psi 6ply and 3560@30psi. Factors out to be about a 15% reduction per 10lbs. Don't know if that percentage remains consistant the lower you go. 30psi is the lowest inflation # listed for that tire size/type. For those interested here's the link ....


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DFB
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2000-12-10          22294

I'll try again ....


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