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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 100 Bostic, North Carolina
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2004-08-30          94978

I purchased a new tractor a few months back, and purchased a few implements with it for a specific purpose. Essentially, my back field and back yard are overrun with weeds, and I want to plow them under and start anew. I've been told to spread lime and a little fertilizer, till the old grass under while mixing in these components, use my box blade to smooth any uneven areas, then drag a section of chain-linked fence behind my tractor to smooth the ground and then spread the seed. Does this sound like the best approach? I will be redoing about 3 acres, so killing the old grass seems impractical, and I was told that tilling the old very well will eliminate it. Also, how deep should I till? (I have a Kubota 72" LA723 FEL, Woods 72" tiller, Woods 72" Box Blade, Woods 72" Landscape Rake, Woods 72" Finishing Mower, And a 500-lb seeder/spreader).

Also, I need some tips on using the box blade. I was told it's the best thing to use for what I'm needing to do, but I've never used one. Thanks!


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-08-30          94981

Jon, first off, as another who wears the steel ring, I know we are sometimes accused of designs that 'look good on paper' but are tough to execute in practice. This is one of those designs, LOL.

Seriously, based on more than a bit of experience at doing this type of stuff, I think you are designing an elephant when a mouse will do fine.

Unless your lawn is vastly more weeds than grass I would strongly advise against doing anything as drastic as that. The main problems with what you have in mind is that a) weeds are notorious for germinating faster than grass and growing more vigorously afterwards, and b) even if you have a poor lawn there, just below it is a broad network of rhizomes, the fibrous roots that are the food & water gatherers for the turf that we see above ground.

When you chew up an existing lawn you do two important things, you kill a good portion of the rhizomes, and you give the weeds and weed seeds a big head start.

When asked this sort of question my answer is always the same, add soil where needed, add whatever fertilizers, supplements or amendments are required or desired and then over-seed the area. If the rhizomes are healthy they will sprout up from beneath even pretty heavy top-dressing if you have low spots to fill.

Even in your much longer growing season, establishing a new lawn from scratch is a BIG undertaking as compared to merely making what you already have stronger, smoother and weed-free.

Best of luck.
....

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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-08-30          94988

Murf--

As always, thanks for your input! However, I'm not sure I can achieve the desired results without "redoing" my yard. Essentially, buying my tractor to use as a lawn mower was a blessing not only due to speed, but also to save my back. In simpler terms, the soil underlying my yard is so uneven and bumpy that it's almost impossible to mow with an everyday lawn mower. The guy who built my house obviously left the ground bare too long and quite a bit of erosion took place. There's a hole here, a hole there, a long network of eroded areas over there, etc. To buy a few dump truck loads of dirt and deliver it to each spot would simply be impossible. A couple of years ago I had a few landscapers come out and look at my yard, and each one recommended starting from scratch. I did that exact thing in my front yard (which was already smooth and in best shape), and it turned out to be stunning. The back yard will require breaking up of the soil as I did in the front, but will also require some grading and smoothing of the different areas.

My main concern is ending up with a yard that is nice and smooth, and wondered if this would be the best way to go about it. If you have a better idea than what was told to me, please feel free to let me know (as you did above). Once again, I just don't think I can fill in all the ruts and holes on the entire 3 acres by carrying dirt to each one and filling them. Even worse, the existing grass/weeds covers them well, so the only way to "find" them is by driving over one. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-08-30          94989

Jon, bear in mind, I didn't say that you couldn't do it, I said "establishing a new lawn from scratch is a BIG undertaking as compared to merely making what you already have stronger, smoother and weed-free.".

I stand by that statement. There are also easier ways than carrying a bucket full of dirt around also.

We regularly use a box blade to do it. Basically you fill the box blade with topsoil, lift the lead edge until it JUST clears the existing grade and then drive forward. As the existing soil drops away from the blade's back edge the soil falls down into the depression filling it to the blade edge. If there is a high spot the blade slices it off as it goes by.

Your method will work too, no doubt about it, but to re-build 3 acres of turf for the sake of a small percentage of it that is bad is just a little overkill to me.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-08-30          94991

There are always several ways to do anything. If you don't want to spray first with Roundup, I'd drop the tiller about 4" deep and till it twice in opposite directions(once each way in a cris-crossed manner). I normally use my pulvizer to level it but a box scraper can also do the job. You just want a slight buildup on the leading edge of the blade from skimming the high spots such that it unloads in low spots. If you take too much at a time, you will be making new potholes. Doing it in cris-crossed patterns will get the low spots filled quite evenly while it will reduce the edge buildup from each pass. If the valleys aren't too deep, I just drag an up-side-down pallet with my lawn tractor (less soil compaction) using a chain. I load the rear edge with a few concrete blocks. When dragging it along, the front lifts slightly and you get a build-up of soil that unloads in low spots. After doing that several times, I broadcast the grass seed(heavy) and then drag it one last time to work it in a little.

Some of the professional guys here may have better techniques but this works for me. Pray to the rain god for a nice soft rain and you are all set. ....

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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-08-30          94992

Pete--

I had planned to smooth out the very rough spots with a box blade, and then drag a piece of chain-linked fence behind the tractor as opposed to a pallet as you suggested so it would be wide enough to cover my tire tracks. Do you think that would work fine, or should I join two pallets to get the desired width?

As for the box blade, I'll start tinkering with it in the lowest field. That way, if I make a mess for the time being my wife won't be too upset with me! Any other tips on box blade use would be appreciated, as well. Someone told me to tilt it one way, anmd someone else said to tilt it another, etc., etc. As you say, there are many ways to do something, but I trust the judgement of everyone on here better thamn just about anything else! ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-08-31          95032

Jon; I don't like to disagree with Murf and the others, they've been there and done that too. I'll just relate my personal experience with such a situation as you have. About the only way I learned much about landscaping was by doing it wrong and the hard way enough times to begin to see the light on how to do it better and easier. I'm a long way from knowing it all, and never will, but here goes. Your idea on tearing it up and starting over is really the only truly successful way I've found of getting the "Front Yard" quality lawn. Before doing anything get a soil test so that any lime or fertilizer will be what you really need rather than the shotgun aproach. Call your county extension service, they'll line you up on soil testing. Save yourself the misery of dealing with clumps of sod, old root balls, etc., by doing the following. First mow it with a bush hog or similar machine to grind up as much top growth as you can, give the clippings a few days to dry away then spray it with Roundup, give the roundup enough time to fully kill the root systems (three weeks or so). By that time you will have your soil test back, apply the fetilizer and lime, roto till it as deep as your tiller will go, but do it a step at a time working deeper in about three passes. Unless you have really deep gullies or holes to level out a landscape rake will work better than a box blade. One important tning I forgot to mention is don't do any of the tillage when the soil is too wet, you'll just make a mess and compact the soil. You can rent a seeder, but the best way to seed is to hire someone with a rear mount seeder drill, they do a great job of evenly spreading the seed, getting the depth just right. the little spinner seeders are fine for a small job, but not one of your size. yes you will have weeds come up in the new seeding, but there are ways to control them. Enough said, best of luck. Frank. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-08-31          95033

Lengthening the top-link on a scraper reduces the cut to where it drags rather than cuts. Lengthening it more spreads material in the box. A scraper will that's spreading will tend to follow a dip that's wider than the scraper. I sometimes take a pass at 90-degrees to fill wide dips or use the rear cutter to cut high spots into low ones before spreading. If you don't have a hydraulic link, you'll spend more time hopping on and off the tractor to make link adjustments than doing tractor work. You'll also spend time removing and disposing of the old sod unless it's cut up very fine with a tiller, which also takes time.

Buying or renting a landscape rake with gauge wheels would be my tool of choice for finish work. I don't have one and can't rent one either. A dozer spread top-soil over our new septic system since the dozer was already there. I dragged the area with chain-link fencing wrapped around a 10x10 timber--first with the weight of several cement blocks and then very lightly after spreading seed. It's better to roll the seed in but I don't have a roller either nor could I count on enough rain during germination. The results are OK but a bit uneven and some is still emerging two weeks later.

It's handy to be able to lift a drag off the ground for transport and for turning around. Drags don't work too well if the chains are short enough so the 3ph can lift the drag, and then more weight on the drag is needed. That was no problem for me since I have a 3ph forklift. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-08-31          95047

As you can see there are lots of ways to do the job. Many of us use MacGyver techniques depending on what is laying around. If you combine what most of us have said in part, the following would be a good guide: Round-up like Hardwood has said would be the first step. If you run the tiller through one time and loosen the soil, your next step could be the box scraper to fill in the low spots. Till it a second time in an opposite direction. Drag chainlink fence, timbers, pallets or whatever to smooth it out more. Broadcast in fertilizer and any other soil treatment and till it again. Drag it again and broadcast the seed. I always put down lots more seed than normal to get a real full lawn right from the start. One final light drag(with less weight) will work in the seed. Water is important. If this is done in the fall, maybe rain is enough but a little intervention can't hurt.

New weeds will germinate from disturbing the soil. Let the grass grow to a nice height and full thickness before putting on weed killers or mowing. The weeds quite often look disturbing the first year or until they are under control. Next year fewer weeds will germinate if your lawn is thick and kept slightly long. ....

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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-08-31          95082

Good question--time of year! I live in North Carolina, so is it too late to get started? If I spray round-up right now it would take 2-3 weeks to fully kill the existing weeds and grass putting me into late September. By the time I till, grade, till, spread, smooth, spread and finally smooth (cover seed) again, will it be too late in the year? ....

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yooperpete
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2004-08-31          95093

I live in Michigan, so it would appear that your growing season is longer than ours. It can be done in Michigan as well. So,you should have ample time to do it. Spraying it will only take a couple of hours while you should be able to till, level and seed in one weekend. Fall is a good time to plant grass. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-08-31          95145

Jon; I'm not real familliar with your growing season there but in Iowa the ideal time to start new grass from seed is early Sept.. So I would guess that your growing season is probably a month or so longer than ours here, so I think that if you sprayed the roundup now, gave it three weeks to fully kill the root systems of the existing sod and weeds that your temps probably start to ease off from the summer highs to give the grass seed a good start before winter. Trying to hurry roundup is sorta defeating the whole idea of the product, you need to give it time to fully kill all the root system, the higher the temperatures the faster it works. After rereading your original post I noted that you do have a seeder, so perhaps you allready have everything you'll need to do the job. Again, best of luck. Frank. ....

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bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2004-09-01          95215

My contractor left our back yard in much the same way yours did. I screwed around with it for about 5 years basically wasting my time just trying to get it mowable. Then I bought a tractor. Now my yard gets bigger and better. I kept it simple but I didnt need a putting green either. I just put the scarifiers all the way down on the box blade and tore loose about 3 or 4 inches of soil and pulled the rocks out with it. Went over it a couple times with no scarifiers to level it and then raked it, seeded it, strawed it and watered it. Been mowing it all summer. Its got a few weeds but its nothing roundup couldnt take care of if I cared. It turned out good considering that I have more rocks than dirt and Im on the side of a hill with lotsa trees mixed in. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-09-01          95218

Roundup seems an extreme measure to me but I think I understand it. Some years ago I used a box scraper to take sod off a plot about 50'x 75' for a garden and was left with a pile of sod. I suppose I could have moved the pile to the bush and just left it but I thought: Why waste the green fertilizer and some topsoil? So I started cutting it up with a small walk-behind tiller. The tiller and me got quite a workout before the sod was cut up fine enough to be left in the garden. Three acres would make a big pile of sod I think.

Along with Murf's thinking I'm going to mix up some compost that's ready and dirt, fill in the ruts left by the dump and septic-tank delivery trucks and seed it. Who knows, maybe I'll end up wasting time and start thinking about Roundup in a few years. Turning our yard into a dirt patch for a few months would be a tough sell to my wife though. ....

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hardwood
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2004-09-01          95226

bnrhuffman; I just read your last post on the lawn reseeding issue. You stated that your new lawn had a few weeds but nothing roundup could'nt take care of. I'm sure you allready know this, but just to refresh everyone's mind Roundup is a "Non selective" herbicide meaning it will kill any vegetation it is applied to except "Roundup Ready" plants. Roundup ready plants like RR soybeans, cotton, etc., have the RR ready gene added to their genetic base to make them roundup resistant, plants without that gene die when roundup is applied. FYI. Frank. ....

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bnrhuffman
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2004-09-01          95239

Thanks Frank, I didnt know that. Ive never used the stuff myself. Ive always been nervious about using anything because of our dog, cat and rabbit that on occation nibble at the yard. I consider the weeds to be as green as grass. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-09-01          95247

Bear in mind folks, 3 acres is a VERY small job from my perspective.

Even still, to rip up 3 acres of turf just because a small percentage of it is need of some work is over-kill, IMHO. I have 20+ years experience at growing turf and I would think about it twice before I did it, even if I was getting paid for the work, three times if I wasn't.

Aggresive top-dressing and overseeding is a much easier route, especially as a FIRST project.

Unless there are grades which need to be changed, I see no real reason for a total rebuild.

The other BIG concern would be if the builder "left the ground bare too long and quite a bit of erosion took place". Now to go in there and start blending what's left of the topsoil with the likely marginal sub-soil will make a lovely flat yard covered in CRAP for soil in places and not others, which means the grass will not be uniform across the yard.

Any farmer will tell you, too much topsoil beats not enough every time. By adding soil to the low (eroded) spots you are at least erring on the side of caution, as opposed to redicing the amount of topsoil by blending whats left with everything else below it.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2004-09-01          95294

Keep in mind if you till it (disk or rototill) the deeper you go the harder it will be to level it as the soil will be fluffy. If you go more than a few inches deep, I'd let it set and settle for awhile after a good rain before attempting to relevel it. I had this happen to to me when used my power box rake a.k.a. Harley Rake to remove or till an acre lot. It ripped out all the weeds but the box scraper kept loading up with "fluff" (weeds) that I ripped out and turned under. I did what I could and the homeowner ended up hand-raking all the weeds out. ANother thing to do before any tilling is cut the grass as short as possible to reduce a balling-up effect of the fluff. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-09-05          95657

Murf Is right, It will be a big job. Hardwood is also right on track if you plan to do it all over again. If it were me, I would slow this process down and not get carried away with the fall coming. I would do just like hardwood said and add some suffacant (if not already added to the round up) Spray this now, Wait 2 weeks and spray her again if you did not get a good kill. If you did then till it deep and level her off. Make sure you limed like hardwood said, (forget the fert. right now) Then broadcast some oats lightly to hold the soil inplace over winter. This is where I would stop and wait. I would wait over winter for the ground to settle. When it dries up enough in spring I would level it out one more time asap. Let the new weed seed that you brought up to the surface germinate and hit it with round up one more time. Wait 2-3 weeks and broadcast your grass seed disturbing as little of the top soil as you can, just enough to cover the seed.
With this process you would of killed as many new weed seeds as humanly possible and still have a nicely packed and settled (flat) yard. Any other way in my opinion will just be rushing to judgment and will end up with more pot holes and uneven ground come spring.
I am by no means a pro, but that is how I would do it. Slow down and dont hurry when making good wine.
Brokenarrow ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-09-05          95658

By the way, All that equipment and you dont have a harley rake??? Shame on you! LOL ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-09-05          95659

PS I would kill to have one! ....

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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-09-07          95762

Dumb question.... What is a harley rake!?!?!?! ....

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Murf
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2004-09-07          95768

Jon, a Harley Rake is like a cross between a scarifier like they use on a road surface, and a rototiller. The rolling drum is covered with short teeth that break up the soil and lift debris out to the surface. The drum is also angled to winrow the debris for easy removal. They usually run on gauge wheels and include some form of static rake or blade behind to give a finished appearance.

They are VERY pricey tools but will do a nice job. Generally they are seen as a way of utilizing unscreened topsoil, or insitu recycling like you are proposing.

Have a look at the link below for a little more detail.

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Harley Power Rake

 
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jonathanengr
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2004-09-07          95789

I tried searching the web and pulled up a few Harley Rakes, but can't really see them very well. From what I can see they seem to be a tiller with a pulverizer attached to the back. Does this pretty-much sum them up? I have the tiller and now have a pulverizer, and also have a landscape rake (as far as removing rocks). I assume I can use these to get relatively the same results? Also, one person mentioned smoothing my land with the pulverizer. Is it true that I can even out some of the small hills and ruts just by running over and over them with the pulverizer? ....

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jonathanengr
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2004-09-07          95791

One additional question I've been meaning to ask.... My landscape rake does *not* have wheels on the back, but they are an option. Should I buy them to keep from "gouging" the ground? Also, with any implement, what's the best way to keep from "rising" off of a cut when the nose of the tractor turns down, or to keep from "gouging" when the nose turns up? Just keep adjusting the implement height as I slowly traverse the ground? Someone mentioned getting draft control put on my tractor, but the dealer told me that really wouldn't help very much. What exactly is draft control, anyway? ....

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yooperpete
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2004-09-07          95812

The pulverizer can be used to level the soil. The front edge of the I-beam does it. With most pulverizers you can either leave the scarifier teeth in or remove them if you like. Usually a long cross rod that passes through a hole in each of the scarifier teeth for the full width of the unit can be removed. There are usually two rows of teeth. I generally leave them in. It sounds to me that you have more than enough stuff to do the job. I don't think it is that much of a jobe doing your project with what you have. Now, if you want to skip the Round-up process and just run a tiller through it and grind up all the stuff, you could have had it all already done this past long weekend. If you have some stones and are concerned with tiller use, run the pulverizer first and jarr the stones loose and pick them up first.

The power rake is a nice attachment if you want to windrow all of the excess debris. If you use a tiller, it can be ground up and buried in the soil. If you killed it with Round-up you wouldn't be putting as many new weed seeds into the ground to regerminate. If you do a good job of spraying afterward you can get rid of them later. The only problem is grassy types of weeds. You can't use a selective herbicide for that like you can for broad leaf weeds. I still like the suggestion of using Round-up first. ....

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jonathanengr
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2004-09-07          95814

I haven't been too concerned with stones... should I be? I do have rocks in the soil, and chopped up quite a few tilling for a garden this year. However, after tilling the stones (I'm assuming) sank to the bottom of the freshly tilled soil leaving nothing to be picked up. I did try to "rake" the soil with my landscape rake after tilling, but all it did was pull soil and never even grabbed a rock.

I'm still at a loss for what the "power rake" does. How does it pull the rocks and windrow them? Why doesn't it just sink them to the bottom like my tiller does? Etc., etc., etc. Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm trying to truly learn this stuff so I'll have a better understanding of what to use and when to use it. ....

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Murf
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2004-09-07          95815

Jon, ulike a tiller, the teeth on a 'power rake' are only an inch or two long.

The roller on which they are mounted is like a pipe that runs flat against the ground as it turns. Any stones or debris that get hit by the teeth are lifted up and forwards, it cannot get back under the roller, the teeth would bring it up again. In operation the whole thing is usually angled to one side or the other, as a result the debris just keeps moving along till it falls out the side.

Clearer now?

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-09-08          95956

Jon - I have a question for you. What kinda of lawn are you trying to achieve? Thick & plush or just an ordinary lawn? Answer that & i'll give my 2 cents. ....

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Help with Box Scrape Seeding Yard

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jonathanengr
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 100 Bostic, North Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-09-09          95997

I'm shooting for thick and plush--the beautiful yard everyone dreams of having. However, given my current yard, I'd almost settle for a normal yard!~ But I'm shooting for thick and plush first. ....

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Help with Box Scrape Seeding Yard

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-09-09          96000

ok - Spraying round up would be good first. Waite the 2 weeks then till. I personally would only till 2 inches. Then I would call a company that delives topsoil. Order 100 yards per 30,000 sq. ft. of area your seeding. I dont talk in acreage measurements, I talk in sq footage. a typical acre is 44,000. When the topsoil arives, Scoop it up it your loader & spread it around with your bucket. Shake your loader joystick left to right so shake the soil out as you drop it. Once the entire area is covered it will be covered unevenly mostlikely unless your a pro, This is where your box blade will come into play. Grade is how you desire your topograghy to be. Once you have it all smooth & even, Then apply your seed. If this tends to be a rainy time of yea for you then I would recommend raking in the seed with either a chainlink fence section pulled behind your kubota or a pallet. Once this is done, Apply starter fertilizer. Then apply straw or salt hay. I use straw because it is less expensive. Do not skip the straw process. It is a very important step. I see homeowners skip that all the time & then the wonder why it's such a thin lawn. This is a lot of work & i totally understand what murf is saying however overseeding & topdressing could take you a few years to achieve a nice lawn unless you topdress the entire lawn with 6" of topsoil & start from there. Good luck & feel free to ask any questions. ....

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