Go Bottommaking a 3 point carryall fork need help
 | Jim Youtz
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2001-03-07 25179
I'm going to fire up my welder this weekend and build a 3 point hitch mount carryall. I'd like to design it to also serve as a light duty forklift also to lift pallets and such occasionally. I measured a King Kutter brand carryall and the forks are made out of angle iron and set 26" apart. I am thinking that 1/4" thick-walled tubing would work better for the fork use. I'm planning to make the hitch portion the standard 26" between pins, but for forklift use that seems too narrow to me. Would 36" between forks work okay for wood pallets? Does anyone have one of these who can measure it? I would greatly appreciate this.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2001-03-08 25186
Jim: Dang, my 3ph forks are tarped and buried under 2' of snow or I'd take a picture. However, from memory, the carriage on mine is built from box beam. The carriage is two telescoping rectangular sections. The stationary section has the top and lower link mounts and is as wide as possible. The lower link arms have to be spread almost to their limits to mount the forks. I think it's good for the carriage to be as wide as possible. The lifting section of the carriage rides on rubber rollers on the front of the stationary section. The forks mount on the backrest portion of the lifting carriage. The backrest is wider than the carriage and contains a heavy round bar at the bottom. The round bar is much longer than the carriage width, which allows the fork width to be adjusted. The fork width almost has to be adjustable if the forks are to be used for pallets, since the notches aren't standard widths. I'm not sure, but I think the forks can be adjusted at least 4' apart. The forks themselves are hinged, which is really handy for sliding them on the ground to get under pallets. Carriage tilt is provided by a hydraulic top-link. Well, I guess this isn't 1000 words, so I guess a picture would 10 times as good, but I hope the words help some. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-03-08 25193
Jim the short answer is economics, King Kutter are trying to build something to be retailed at a very low price, therefore manufacturing costs must be rock bottom also. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I know of many people who have and regularly use a similar light duty thing, they work very well, for the purpose intended, over-load them and forget it. The angle iron is for two reasons, weight and cost, steel is priced by the pound, 1/4" (0.250" to us engineer types) wall square tubing that is say 2" x 2" has exactly twice as much material as a similar sized peice of angle, therefor it will be twice the price also. Again, in trying to minimize cost, they make the entire unit only the width of the 3pth, thereby minimizing the amount of steel and cost. No doubt the tubing version will be much stronger, it will also be much heavier so do your self a favour, before you shut off the welder, make some 'landing legs' for this beast so you won't have to pick it up to mount it on the 3pth. Generally speaking I think you will find that a 'standard' pallet will be about 36" x 48" with the forks going in on the 48" side, so that 2 across fill a trailer of 8' in (inside) width. And of course the wider you make it the more stable it will be. Best of luck. ....
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| kay
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2001-03-08 25204
TomG Your 3 pt forks sound great and very handy. Worth a wait for the spring thaw for a picture or two. Are they custom made or commercially available? I thought about asking you to go out with a shovel and remove the 2 feet of snow, but had secondary, more humane, thoughts. Anxious to hear more about it. ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-08 25206
Jim, Murph has provided you with some food for thought and I would like to expand upon this. I'm a manufacturing engineer in the aerospace industry, we don't use steel much in airframes, but we use it in our tooling and fixtures. I looked at the King Kutter design and it gives me pause for thought. Their design is a deceptively simple design that could get someone into danger if they are inexperienced and try to depart from it. As an engineer, I would never have done it that way, nor would Mil-Spec's, FAA, or OSHA allowed me to. Not for our industry and probably not for my own use. The use of simple angle iron (in this case of unknown, to us, ASTM/ASE strength) as a cantilevered beam may/may not have a uniformly supported load rating of 1 kip (1000lbs to a kip) for the exact length of the beam (also unknown to me), when unbraced and welded to a vertical member. Your design had better be at least as good as King Kutter's. The point at which the beam is welded (pivot point in this case), and what kind of weld and weldable area that your beam offers, is also as critical as the moment (length) and material that you'll be using for the beam. You mentioned using rectangular tubing so I looked up the uniformly loaded rating for laterally supported beams of ASTM A36 steel (a good baseline), of various size rectangular structural tubing, of various wall thicknesses, of lenngths in excess of four feet, plugged the figure(s) into my computer using aircraft welding standards, and came up with a disaster waiting to happen. With the area available for welding the tube (beam) to your carriage, there exists a probability of failure with tip supported (non-uniformly supported)loads in excess of 1600lbs. I caution you, if you aren't capable of doing your own structural analysis, please have someone do it for you before you procede, and never, ever, stick something valuable under any suspended load. I'm not saying your idea is dumb or without merit, you've got a nice project, you can probably do it, and it should turn out well. Just check things out well in advance if you haven't already. Good Luck. ....
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| Bruce Carlston
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2001-03-08 25213
I had a carryall made locally for my Yanmar 1610D and use it on my Yanmar 2620D also. I had it made 26" wide and 30" high. The guy used 2"x3" angle iron. I have minor problems with it, when the 3 pt is lifted all the way up the carryall strikes the fenders. Another issue I have is that the nature of the 3 pt hitch is such that the higher you lift something the larger the angle it's forks tip, that makes stuff you have on a pallet roll/slide toward the tractor. On my smaller tractor I also had trouble with the carryall frame rubbing on the tires, so measure the distance between your tires before making it much wider. The only problem with making the forks from pipe is that it might be a little trickier to get into a pallet. It is a handy device, but it isn't a forklift. ....
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| Dave M
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2001-03-08 25214
FYI - Even King Kutter says their carry-all is not for pallets. You are expected to deck the carry-all with a lumber platform. They make a pallet mover from rectangular steel tubing that they claim will support 2000 lbs. 24" out from the 3 point frame.
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Link: King Kutter Pallet Mover
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2001-03-08 25224
I go along with Dave on this. If it is the same rear mount that I am thinking of, it never was intended to work as a fork lift, only as a lightweight platform to be covered with plywood. Forklift blades are entirely different....super high strength steel....very expensive. I made sort of a light duty device like you are thinking of by finding an old "hand truck" -used for moving pallets around a warehouse- and welding a three point hitch to the front of it. The blades on it are high strength roll-formed steel, 2" deep and six inches wide. I still don't trust it too far, as it was never intended to support a cantilevered load. OK, I just measured it. The blades are 20 1/2 inches from center to center and 4 feet long. Shaky darn thing when loaded....
Still, making things with the welder is half the fun of tractors. If you are going to give it a shot just be careful. Or drop me a sketch and I'll run the numbers and give you some ballpark figures. ....
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| Jim Youtz
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2001-03-08 25236
Wow, lots of good responses and info. Thanks alot for the engineering tips. Now I have more thinking to do. Tomorrow, I'll take a trip to a local steel fabrication shop to get the steel and talk with the shop people. What I'm trying to build is really more of a carryall than a forklift, but I would like to ocassionally use it for light-duty pallet lifting (500-750 lbs. of bricks, hay, ect...). My tractor's 3 point lift capacity is only 930 pounds, so I can't really overdo it with this thing anyway. Loads will be carried close to the ground, so any failures should not be too much of a disaster. But I will keep these points in mind, and if we can't come up with anything at the fabrication shop, I will take you up on your offer of design help Roger. I'll keep you all posted on this. What a really want is a detachable forklift for my loader, but I can't afford this right now. I'll build this thing for say $60 worth of material, use it to get this summer's chores done, and then get that loader mounted unit someday. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-03-09 25239
Kay: The forks are made by WIFO. My dealer came up with them, and they came with no literature, so WIFO is probably a large welding shop. They are a full-fledged forklift type (with a side-shift option available that I didn't get). The lift is chain driven from a long cylinder and has a max height of 5.5', not including any lift from the 3ph. I didn't describe the telescoping carriage quite right, and it probably isn't wise for my to try. It is two rectangular sections--a stationary and a lifting section that telescope. It's worth noting that the bottom of the lifting section is free to swing out when the carriage is tilted forward (or when trying to disengage dragging forks from under a pallet). In addition, the forks are hinged so they can swing up. The combination of the swing carriage and hinged forks makes the unit sort of 'self-leveling' when taking pallets on and off the forks. Actually, it's a little tricky getting a pallet on and off when the tractor and the pallet are on uneven ground. The whole unit is heavy duty and weights over 600 lbs. I realize that Jim's interests are more modest, but I think this type of unit is what is actually needed for fairly serious pallet and other lifting work. I don't think I'd ever contemplate trying to lift a load that would break it, and I know that's a good idea to pay attention to the engineering issues raised here. On the other hand, the forks weren't cheap ($2000+ CAN), but they were just a little more than a loader forklift attachment. The advantage is that they work like a true forklift (lift in a true vertical). It is just about my favourite implement, and the only bad thing I can say is that it's difficult and somewhat dangerous to mount--they fold flat and are probably worse than post-hole augers to mount. It pretty much lives on my 3ph. Maybe because it's a pain to take on and off, but also because it's very useful. I can plan my other work, but I never know when I'm going to deal with something big and heavy. I didn’t like all the shaky lifting things I was doing with my loader bucket. Happy you didn’t ask for a picture ‘cause I’m just getting over the flu. ....
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| Craig Dashner
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2001-03-09 25251
Jim, I made my own forks (to go on my JD4100 loader) and intended to make 3pt brackets but never did. I got two 48 forks from a scrapyard, and made a carriage out of 4x3x3/8 angle iron. The forks are the type that ride on a plate rather than a rod. I designed them for 1000# with plenty of fudge factor involved (I am a structural engineer). They seem pretty solid and were simple to make. I am making a second set(with 3"x30" forks) because the first set was pretty heavy due the the 4"x48" forks. The attachment used up too much of my tractors capacity which is not too great to begin with. I was planning on selling the first set(enough to cover the cost of the forks and a 12 pack for my troubles). If you are relatively close to SE Michigan and interested shoot me an email, if not let me know and I can shoot some pic's for you. It was an extremely easy build. I was considering building my own forks with 2x2 or 4x2 tubing as well, but when I found the forks, I decided not to.
Craig ....
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| Jim Youtz
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-03-09 25301
Thanks everyone for the info. I made a pallet mver today, the same design as the King Kutter pallet mover (not the carryall) using 2" tubing, 1/4" thick. Forks are 41" long. Width between forks is 30". This thing can also be set in the bucket and chained across the top to be used as loader forks. I'm going to try them out tomorrow. I can't imagine them not having enough strength, since the King Kutter design is advertised as having a 2000# capacity. The 3 point on my tractor only has a 930# capacity. Craig, I would be interested in looking at a photo of your bucket forks, since I also have a 4100. I think I can use mine as bucket forks, but I'd like to look at your design. ....
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| Bruce Pirger
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2001-03-12 25401
I am interested in finding a fork lift attachment that mounts to both my 3PT and my loader. I see WorkSaver has something like this...Handles up to 3-4000 lbs. I've decided that moving firewood 15 times before placing it in the stove is too much...and I'd like to move wood around (a pallet at a time) with the lift. Blocked onto the pallet, off to split but right back on a different pallet...then from pallet to the stove! My Dad always laughs at me...says every log heats me up over a dozen times! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-03-13 25438
I don't know anything about the Worksaver forks. I do have 3ph pallet forks that I prefer over anything loader attachment I found. I use my loader all the time, and often along with the forks. I just don't want to have to keep changing things back and forth. I'm not sure how useful an option of mounting the forks onto a loader would be for me. You might want to look at true dedicated 3ph pallet forks and then compare the features to the Worksaver. Myself, I wouldn't want to give up many features or spend much just for a loader mount option. Some pallet fork features to look for are true vertical lift and carriage tilt and full backrest. Some loader forks use the loader arms for lift (which lift in an arc) and depend on automatic bucket leveling (which many loader lack) for keeping the load level while lifting. Without a full backrest and carriage, there’s always the chance of a tall load falling off the back of the forks on to the tractor. In addition, it doesn't take long while trying to get pallets on and off the forks to realize why forklifts steer from the back. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2001-03-13 25445
TomG, it just depends on what you're going to use the forks for. The last time I used my forks (on the front of my bucket) was to move pallets with bricks on them. A 3-point rig would have worked just fine, but so did the ones on the bucket. But one of the uses I make of my forks is when I go get a 55 gallon barrel of diesel. The barrel is sitting on a pallet and I set it in the bed of my pickup that way and then set it back out when I get home. I don't know of any 3-point rig that would get high enough to let me do that. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-03-13 25453
Bird: I think we're both saying that use should be considered and it's a good idea to look at various alternatives. I did look around a bit and ending up liking the 3ph better than loader types, but other people may like loader types better. I wonder if we're talking about the same type of 3ph forks. Mine have a maximum height of 5.5' plus a couple more if I raise the unit with the 3ph. ....
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| Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-13 25454
Bruce, I own two Worksaver products, a skid steer fork attachment and a hydraulic auger for my backhoe. The 3pt and/or loader fork attachment you refer to is for Category II 3pt hitches. If you have a CatII hitch this attachment should work well based on my experience with Worksaver products. You would need to have the optional loader brackets, and maybe also the hydraulic top link for the 3pt hitch. I use the Kasco Uni-Hitch and the Kasco Switch Hitch, the Uni-Hitch converts my FEL to accept skid steer attachments, and the Switch Hitch adapts 3pt hitch attachments to the skid steer adapter on my loader. Having the Switch Hitch also enables me to mount a 3pt fork unit to my loader if I needed to. But this is an expensive way to go. Explore the Worksaver product at the link provided. ....
Link: Worksaver Attachments
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-03-13 25455
TomG, if your forks will reach a height of 5.5', then obviously I had something else in mind. ....
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| JeffM
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2001-03-13 25463
Bird, I assume your forks just rely on the 3 point hitch for lift, while what TomG has is an actual forklift on a 3 point hitch, meaning that his forks will lift relative to the 3 point hitch whereas yours are limited by the 3 point lift height. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-03-13 25465
Yeah, JeffM, I was asleep at the switch; didn't read TomG's earlier message closely enough, and thought he was talking about the 3-point "carry-alls" like Tractor Supply Co. sells. I don't have any forks for the 3-point at all. I just got a pair of regular 4' forklift forks, did a little welding and adapted them to fit onto the front of the bucket on the front end loader. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-03-14 25489
I think Bird and Jeff point out that I could be clearer. Perhaps a 3ph forklift better describes what I have. Anyway, it has it's own lift cylinder that operates a chain driven carriage. It uses a hydraulic top-link for carriage tilt. There also is a side-shift option that I didn't get. The forks are 2-piece forks. The vertical and horizontal sections are hinged so the forks can fold up. The top of the vertical sections also can swing away from the carriage. The fold-up forks are good for parking tractors inside short sheds, and also help with running the forks under pallets.
I took a look at the Worksaver link. They look like pretty good units, but they aren't forklift types with their own lift. From the parts list, the hitch pins on the 3ph/loader type seem to be loose pins. I believe that adapter sleeves are available to adapt CATII sockets to CATI pins. The unit may work on a CATI hitch if the arms spread wide enough. I really can't compare my forks with this type of unit. However, I'm aware that I got a Cadillac implement at a Cadillac price, and that's not a solution for everyone. I'm just trying to describe some alternatives that others may not be aware of.
I mentioned that my forks provide 'true vertical lift' in another post. I'll summarize the issue for anybody unfamiliar with the idea. Loaders and 3ph implements lift in arcs that pivot around the mounting points. A loader bucket lifted from the ground goes both forward as well as up until the bucket gets above the pivots, then it goes up and back--same with 3ph implements. With loader forks, pallets that are against a wall can't be lifted without pulling them away from the wall first. In addition, the loads tilt back toward the tractor during lift unless adjusted by the curl or top-link. Unbanded loads on pallets can fall off unless carriage leveling adjustments are made (self-leveling loaders may work OK). Anyway, pallets certainly can be managed with loader type forks. It just takes a little more jiggling and fooling than with my type of forks. Which type is the best solution is a matter of individual preferences.
....
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| JeffM
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2001-03-14 25495
TomG, well, that was certainly a very clear explanation. Thanks alot for the elaboration. Your lift does sound like a cadillac - I could never justify it, but if I had one I'd probably use it all the time. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-03-14 25508
TomG, the problem wasn't with the clarity of your message, it was with the speed of my reading. LOL Like you said, you got the Cadillac of the lifts. ....
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