Go BottomBest value top and tilt JD790
 | tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon 
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2004-12-25 102925
Okay, I'm becoming pretty convinced that a Top and Tilt would be pretty useful on a box blade. I am seeing quotes from $600 or so from third parties, to $1200+ from tractor dealers. I will soon take delivery of a JD 790.
1) What will work?
2) What have people used with good success?
3) Does the 790 FEL hydraulics allow for a pass-through to secondary hydraulics for the TNT? (I guess that's what you do?)
4) Does anyone know what length cylinders I will need with a 790?
If I get a box blade with a TNT, will I still need a tilt and swivel rear blade for grading a driveway? I guess the blade still offers swivel capability for pulling gravel out of the ditch to re-build the crown?
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 | hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa 
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2004-12-26 102934
tomrscott; Having the FEL and the box blade on the 4410 at the same time makes for a real handy outfit. It seems you're allways wanting to use the loader to push some soil out of the way, level it or sometning, so I'd hate to give up the use of the FEL plus the added front ballast it provides while box blading. I guess my point being that you could use the loader valves to operate a top and tilt for the box scraper and avoid buying the extra hydraulic valves you'll need to operate the FEL and the TNT at the same time. As I said earlier a TNT is a neat feature, I don't have one and have gotten along, but then too I don't do this for a living where time is money. I'm not sure what Deere offers for extra hyd. outlets on a 790, on a 4000 Ten series up to five are available. Far as cylinder requirements, I'm not familliar enough with the TNT system to give any advice, others on the board with more experience will help you out there. Have a great day. Frank. ....
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| rpelleschi
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56 Spotsylvania, Va
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2004-12-26 102944
I guess I posted a dumb question on my road crown string. I thought the top and tilt was a feature of the box, but what I am reading this is a hydraulic option purchased in addition to the box. Is there anyway to tilt the box at an angle to achieve a nice crown? ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-12-26 102946
No. You got it right. Every tractor has a manual top/tilt feature. You pay additional for an hydraulic top/tilt.
There are a couple of different ways to plumb it; my set-up uses a "power beyond" port. It is the same place I plug in the back hoe and the log splitter. ....
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| rpelleschi
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56 Spotsylvania, Va
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2004-12-26 102947
with just a box and the standard 3pt. is there a way to set up the box at an angle to cut in the crown? ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-12-26 102948
Yes. One of the lower arms on the three point will have a turnbuckle with a lock that will lower or raise that arm in relation to the other. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-12-26 102955
rpichelli: Please don't feel bad about asking "Dumb Questions". We all had to start from zero knowledge on things at one time or another, so we've all asked "Dumb Questions" too. Tractor point has allways had a good cross section of opinions on lots of different things, I like green, you like orange, someone else likes blue, that really doesn't matter we're just here to help one another in a common intrest. I nor anyone else here will ever "Know It All", when someone claims that title it's time to get shed of them. Stay with us we'll try our best and sometime we'll probably ask you for advice too. Frank. ....
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2004-12-26 102964
I have seen the CCM (Carter and Carter Machinery, Tenn.) ad for a full TNT kit at $600 including two cylinders, joystick controller, and hoses. I haven't asked what shipping would cost, but shouldn't be too bad. I am guessing that's probably a pretty good deal. Does anyone have experience with these kits? Good or bad impressions? Feel free to email privately if prefer. At $600 it seems like that is well worth it. Any other good sources to recomend? I saw another one here somewhere, but they were more like $1200 I think. I am not sure why the difference. ....
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| Ironpeddler
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 111 Science Hill,KY USA
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2004-12-26 103002
The CCM T-N-T kit without hoses is $550. All welded hydraulic cylinders with double piloted check valves and position indicators. ....
Link: Top & Tilt
Picture Link
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2004-12-27 103010
What kind of warranty does the CNC TNT kit come with?
What would shipping be to Oregon?
And with due respect to Ironpeddler, has anyone here had any experience with these?
Thanks! I'm about to order something and would like to hear what someone thinks. ....
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| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. 
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2005-01-05 103525
tomrscott,
I recently got the hydraulic top link and tilt cylinders from Ironpeddler (CCM top/tilt cylinders).
I got everything I ordered within a few days. Recieved everything I ordered and the cylinders look good.
I had previously been using my homemade top/tilt cylinders. They worked real well but my tilt cylinder would leak down enough to be annoying.
The CCM cylinders have the check valves on the cylinders, since installing them I have left my 3 point up with the backblade on for 3 days now with 0 cylinder drift. ....
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 | bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2005-01-05 103536
tomrscott,
I've been inching my way to this setup as well for my JD790.
I'll measure for the length of the cylinders tonight. My last addition the tractor the Power Beyond Kit. That is the "unvalve" open line to the hydo system. It connects to the power beyond port from the FEL valve - remember this just flows the fluid when the machine is running, no control.
Use the link below to read the post about the power beyond on my JD 790, it might make things a bit clearer and also give you the part number you’ll need.
I think that I’ll mount an arm off of the ROPS to mount another spool valve. DRankin has a nice looking setup like this.
Check out my pictures for the location of the Power Beyond ports on the tractor. Picture #4
Brian ....
Link: JD790 Rear Hydo
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-12 104051
Took some measurements on my JD790 today toward my TNT project. Took a sick day, darned cold wiping me out, but got bored and went out for a few minutes and measured some things on my tractor (just that bit wiped me out). Thought the measurements might be of interest to others here:
First I measured the turnbuckle "top" and "side" links for length at a level setting on my boxblade, and then took the pin out and ran the turnbuckles to max and min length.
My boxblade is a Frontier 65" and I measured it resting on the blade and the scarifier teeth (set to the first engagement drop position). Basically that's the position I would begin a flat cut with the BB.
Top Link lengths:
- level = 23.5"
- max = 29.5"
- min = 19.5"
From that, a comparable top hyd cyl would be ~19.5" retracted with 10" stroke.
Turn-Buckle Side Link Lengths:
- level = 19" (also = fixed link length)
- max = 21.5"
- min = 17.5"
If I just replaced that capability it would only require a cylinder with a 17.5" retracted length and a 4" stroke, but there have been a lot of threads by folks online who've found that a short stroke side link doesn't give them as much tilt as they need. One guy even went so far as to put in hydraulic cylinders for both side-links and a third valve so he could get more extreme angles. I am thinking at least a 6" stroke, and preferably an 8" stroke. The challenge is finding a cylinder with that much stroke whose retracted length is 16" or so. That would yield about the equivalent of two short cylinders. Of course, you can also get additional range by discarding the fixed side link and using the turnbuckle on one side and the cylinder on the other.
On the 790 (but not all tractors this size), both ends of top link, and the top end of the side link, have ball ends with sleeve tubes 1" OD, 3/4" ID, about 1 3/4" long. I noticed in a picture of a Kubota side link, that it seems to have a clevis on both ends of the side link, and a ball joint at the end of the rock shaft arm. My rock shaft arms have bolted-on 3/4" pins that extend outward. The side-link ball joint slides onto these. Bailey has these ends, weldable, for $13, their PN 133-474.
The clevis at the bottom of the side link is a real problem for getting max stroke out of a short retracted cylinder. It needs to have almost a 4" depth inside the yoke, measured pin center to depth of yoke, so that it can pivot to acute angles without pinching against the hitch arm. I don't see very many stock cylinders with this much clevis yoke depth. Alternatively, I've also seen some articulated clevis joints that would probably work. The hitch arm has a 2.5" by .75" cross section, the clevis is 1.5" wide and has to reach 1.25" into the hitch arm at an acute angle.
Side link extreme travel (with rockshaft arm as above):
Min = 10.5" absolute min shortest before angles become too acute for the ball joint.
Max = 24.5" link arm tip dragging on the ground
Obviously you can't have a cylinder with a 10.5" retracted length, and a 14" stroke, not to mention the 4" clevis! Well, you could use a telescoping cylinder, but I don't think they make those in double acting.
What I wanted to know is how long a link you could have, with the rockshaft link arm lifted to the top of travel, to keep a blade of a given length, at extreme tilt, off the ground to carry it on level ground. It is pretty useful to be able to get an extreme angle on a blade to cut drainage at the edge of a road. In some cases, with a heavy blade and ground that isn't too obstinate, you could shift the blade to the right and reach down into the ditch and cut pretty close to a 45 degree angle, but you would want to be able to lift it high enough to get it off the road when you're driving on the level. All of that is a bit hard to know without a specific back blade to measure.
Maybe if I start from the 19" middle, subtract 5" for the clevis yoke plus mounting, subtract another 2" for the welded ball end, that leaves 12". If I subtract another 3" for the half of a 6" stroke, that leaves 9" for the body, which ought to be enough to contain a six inch stroke.
The only way I can see to come up with the optimum cylinder length is by cutting off the ends of a standard cylinder and welding custom ends on. I know several others have arrived at that conclusion too, but it is a hassle. From my calculations, for a side link, a Chief 2" Cylinder, 6" stroke, with custom welded ends could give a stroke range from 16.5" to 22.5". I think a top link with a 2" bore and 10" stroke could have a range from 19.5" to 29.5".
I also wanted to look at the hydraulics on the 790:
The existing FEL hoses are 3/8" 3000 psi, with what appears to be ISO-A 3/8" -06 size quick disconects. I think I want to keep all the connectors compatible. Also, I want to build a hydraulic pressure gauge fixture with male and female quick disconnects so I can insert it inline into any implement circuit I want to measure (like some others have done). If I keep the same connectors, the same gauge would plug into my FEL or my TNT. Also, TNT doesn't strike me as the sort of thing you want to run real fast, so the work flow lines don't need to be any bigger than 3/8" and will be more flexible smaller.
Finally, I played around with where to put the control valve (SCV). I have about decided to mount it on the right side from the ROP, using two square-corner "U bolts", to fit around the 2"x3" ROP tube. Those would bolt to a large flat heavy gauge plate which the valve could mount to. I think I would position the valve with most of the body behind the ROP tube, the bottom of the joystick boot just about even with the front of the ROP, the handle extending forward almost horizontal, maybe some upward tilt. The idea is that I have to turn around pretty far to see what my 3pt implement is doing anyway, so I might as well have the valve back there where I can easily reach it when turned around in my seat. I also have to keep it up out of the way of my elbow when I am operating the 3pt control next to the seat. Then quick disconnect females mouonted right on the ports to the valve, maybe with 45 degree ELLs if that makes the angle better. This gives the hoses almost a straight shot toward the cylinders. a quick estimate of the cylinder hoses to reach the middle of the cylinders at full length, looks like a maximum of about 25" for the top link cylinder, and 31" for the side link cylinder. I would bundle all four work hoses together about 12" from the couplers with a hose mounting bracket tied to a bunji of some sort to keep the excess hoses from getting in the way. If you use cylinders with a pilot lock valve (like CCM sells), which seems like a real good idea, the two hoses to a given cylinder are about the same length.
One more reason to use dual pilot operated check valves (aka lock valves) that has occurred to me: In the event you want to temporarily use one or both of your rear hydraulic control lines for some other implement. With check valves, you could set the TNT where you want it, uncouple from the TNT cylinder lines and use the TNT SCV for some other rear implement by just plugging into the rear quick disconnects. The check valve should keep the cylinder in place unless the cylinder seals are no good.
Note: I am also going to put a posting here about the "banjo" fittings used on the FEL SCV. I want to figure out what size these things are called, and what options do I have for connecting to the female ports they're attached to.
....
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| bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2005-01-12 104065
tomrscott,
Do you have the power beyond? See my picture #4
This is what I plan to use as the source of hydro pressure. I think I want to have a few different spool valves set up on the right hand ROPS mount. You have two handles for up/down for the the Top/Tilt, Then another 2 spools for implements. I plan to add the spout rotatior and a deflector to the snow blower. have these attach with quick connects, and then be able to maybe use a hydro dump waggon. ....
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-12 104077
bmlekki,
You know, I was already to buy JD's Power Beyond (PB) kit for the 790 one day, when I began to have second thoughts and have finally decided it doesn't do what I want at all. The only thing I would get it for is the banjo fittings, and one pair of quick disconnects but most of the rest of it is completely useless for adding a TNT the way I want to (and the things you describe too I think). A lot of money to spend for two banjo fittings and a pair of quick disconnects, what is it $200 or $300?
There are a lot of ways to get a job done, and a lot of us are just ornery enough to want to do things "our way." So please don't take it personally when I tell you why I decided the JD kit was pretty useless to me. As I said I was all ready to buy the kit too.
JD Inc. sure doesn't have a canned solution for adding TNT to a 790, and the dealers either don't know what TNT is, or kind of smirk when a CUT owner wants to add it. The PB kit was the only advice they could give me. It was only through reading up on hydraulics, looking at a lot of installations, talking to folks online, and spending time in the back shop at my JD dealer asking the service techs to explain things to me, that I finally figured this all out.
This is the problem with the JD PB kit for TNT:
The kit brings the PB to the back of the tractor with quick disconnects (QD). Since it opens up the power hydraulic fluid path between the front end loader (FEL) selective control valve's (SCV) PB and the rockshaft power input port (P), you must have a jumper connected to the QDs if you aren't using the PB.
The question is, what would you use it for? Since it is an uncontrolled pressure hydraulic supply from the pump, the only purpose is to provide a hydraulic pressure supply to a rear implement with its own SCV. In fact that is precisely what they intended it for. A log splitter comes to mind.
For a TNT, or other SCVs mounted on the tractor, there is no point in bringing the PB to a QD on the back of the tractor. Why have QD's in the pressure supply lines of a permanently mounted SCV? You'd have hoses routed to the back of the tractor and then back up to the TNT SCV and back again to the return QD at the back. You already have a gaggle of hoses in the back with the TNT's 4 work lines. The only thing I want at the back of the tractor are QDs for the work lines out of the SCVs for TNT and whatever else you want to do.
If I did want to have a true power beyond (PB) in/out at the back of the tractor for an implement with its own control valve (aformentioned log-splitter for instance), I would'nt use a jumper to complete the circuit when not needed. I think I would use a ball valve to bypass the rear quick-disconnect. Much cleaner installation, and what are you supposed to do with that hose when it isn't being used to keep it clean?
At present, I haven't got any plans for an implement that needs raw hydraulic supply with its own controller. I thought about a log-splitter, but decided there were other things I wanted more. We heat our cedar-beam home with a wood stove, and for the amount of firewood I use, I like splitting logs with a maul. Something really satisfying about giving it one good whack and seeing the log fly apart. Of course there are always the ones with cross branches and crotches that are a PIA. It is one of my few enjoyable forms of exercise. Some people pay a gym a lot of money for that kind of exercise.
Anyway, back to the TNT and the JD PB kit. Once I find a source for the fittings to tap into the ports that JD PB kit taps into, I will run those lines directly to the P of the TNT SCV, and back from its PB to the rockshaft P port.
There is also a third line for the low pressure return to tank that has to be plumbed from the TNT SCV to return the used fluid back to the crankcase. I don't even know if the JD PB kit provides that line, but I don't think so.
Since these are permanently routed lines, I will want to keep them as short as possible, and I would like to run them entirely as tubing. Mounting the TNT SCV on the right side of the rop between the rop and the seat puts it just a foot or so above the FEL and rockshaft ports that you have to plumb it to.
Picking up a low pressure return port is still something I haven't decided on yet. A mechanic pointed out a couple ports that might work, but I want to be sure before I do it. I've ordered the service and parts manuals, but they seem to take awhile.
Did you install the JD kit yourself? Do you happen to remember or notice what kind of threads were on the banjo fittings on the FEL SCV and the rockshaft housing? I suspect they are un-tapered since it uses crush washers on both faces of the banjo. You wouldn't want a tapered thread to bottom out before your crush washers are tight. But maybe there is an ORFS (O-ring face seal) fitting that would fit the same thread.
Again, your needs might be different than mine, but this is the way I want to install TNT, maybe by going into some detail, it will help someone else decide what they want. I know there are a lot of folks planning or considering TNT. ....
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| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2005-01-12 104094
tomrscott,
My last hydraulic tilt cylinder had 4" throw and my current one has 5".
Both gave all the tilt capabilty I have ever needed.
....
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| tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-12 104101
DK35vince,
Thanks for adding that. I appreciate hearing the experiences of others. I have no choice but to try to learn from the experiences of others. Once I get something, I'm going to be stuck with it.
Did your grading consist mainly of crowning a road, or something else? Did you do much digging a drainage ditch along the road edge with a tilted blade?
Have you read the thread of the guy who used two side link cylinders because he wasn't happy with a 5" cylinder? I don't recall but it might have been at another tractor forum I hang out at some. They had a single collected posting with links to a dozen or so long threads, all on the subject of TNT. Tons of information.
email me if you want more info.
tomrscott at sterlink dot net (figure it out... please no spam)
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| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2005-01-12 104108
I have used my rear blade for temperary drainage ditchs.
Even with the 4" throw cylinder I could lift my rear blade as high as the 3 point would lift and drive one side/corner of my 7' rear blade into the dirt with the tilt cylinder.
I now have a CCM tilt cylinder with 5" throw and I find it has more than enough tilt angle. ....
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