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3 point vs frame mount

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J. B. Hopewell
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2001-05-14          28134

I am in the market for a backhoe for my JD 955 and have looked at both the JD #7 hoe (frame mount) and the bush hog 3 (3 point mount). 3 point units are considerably less expensive than frame mount, but are they worth it in the long run, or would I be better off spending the extra money for the frame mount?

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TomG
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2001-05-14          28143

The archives should turn up probably more than you'd want to read on the subject. If you check the archives and questions remain, I'm sure a post will get you some good responses. Myself, I'm of the convenient, cheap, occasional and fairly easy use 3ph-mount flavour. I'm also aware of the tractor frame stress issues that are especially pertinent to 3ph hoes. My hoe is somewhat undersized for the tractor, and I use it in moderation. If I was going to spend my life on a tractor mounted hoe or do repeated heavy-duty tasks, I'd probably get a sub-frame mount, but then I might just get a dedicated hoe/loader instead. Actually, I'm not sure I have the alternative of a sub-frame mount for my mid-80's Ford. Sub-frame mounts are fairly specific to a tractor, and the newer fancy mounts may not be available for my 1710. Many of the older sub-frame mounts are a pain and really do compromise other uses of the tractor. As it stands, the 3ph hoe does most of my work. There's also a neighbour with a sizable Case loader/hoe, and there's always the pro with the tracked hi-hoe. Having said that, I do have to remind myself to check the torque on my tractor's case bolts before I mount my 3ph hoe this year. ....

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Norm
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2001-05-14          28149

I have a #7 on a 755 and it can bounce the tractor around pretty well. The 955 is bigger, but not that much. I would be concerned about the stress. ....

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Paul Fox
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2001-05-14          28170

I have a Woods 650 three-point on my JD 750. I use it HARD! Hard enough to have cracked a couple of weldments over the last 8 years or so. I get into rocky soil, ledge outcroppings, pin gravel, you name it. I'd like to have a buck back for every tooth I've worn out and replaced on that thing. I have never seen any indication of undue stress anywhere on the tractor. Not saying it's not an issue, just haven't seen it on my application. I need the flexibility of being able to change implements in a couple of minutes, and I've been very happy with my three-point, and I'd buy another in a second... ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-14          28176

I'm wondering if the guys that get good results with the 3pt hoes also have some sort of attachment to keep the 3pt arms stable. Paul, you sound like you use yours a lot. Does yours have some sort of 3pt arm locking fixture or does it just flop around? ....

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J. B. Hopewell
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2001-05-15          28183

Thank you to those answering on the 3 pt vs frame mount question. I really appreciate the input and the time it takes to answer these posts. My application is strictly personal and occasional and all my research seems to be leading to the 3 point units. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-15          28185

I remember a comment from somewhere about reinforcing brackets that are available for some model Kubotas. The comment was in the context of warranties. The person said that Kubota wouldn't cover damage due to backhoe use (their hoe and a sub-frame mount I guess) unless the brackets were installed. I don't know thing more than the comment that was from a person who claimed to have the brackets installed. The availability of such brackets might be of some value, but I am pretty much in Paul's camp. A hoe that is the right sized for the tractor and used properly shouldn't require the frame to be reengineered. I suspect that many of the stories about damage are cases of abuse or unskilled operation, although I do avoid jobs that are really beyond a compact tractor. I regularly check the mount adjustments, and will occasionally check the case-bolt torques. However, that being said, the reality is that machinery just can't be used without the risk of breaking something. It not exactly uncommon to hear stories about loader frames broken by lifting from one side of the bucket or from loose mounting bolts either. Maintenance budgets should be planned that anticipate repairing breakage, or the tractor just ends up sitting in a shed. Maintenance budgets also should planned assuming good maintenance and skilled operation, which will do a lot to keep the repair costs down. ....

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Paul Fox
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2001-05-15          28186

Hi Roger. I made my living with my tractor for a couple of years, and a lot of that was backhoe work, so yes, she's got a lot of hours on her. As to the stabilizers, the answer is "sort of". The upper mount on the 'hoe is triangulated to the lower mounts. This limits the side-to-side motion to a couple of inches at most, and then only when transporting. With the rig properly set up for digging (stabilizer pads down far enough to lift the rear wheels of the tractor off the ground, FEL bucket rolled fully forward and loader down far enough to lift the front wheels off the ground) there is no noticable movement of the lower arms. The upper mounting point moves within the limits of slop in the pin/mounting hole which creates a certain amount of jerking, particularly in tough digging conditions. The most abuse of the mounting happens when digging in bad enough conditions that the 'hoe will drag the tractor, bucket and all, across the ground, or pick it up off the stabilizers while biting, and drop it when the boom is lifted. Generally, I take this as a hint and take smaller bites. Occasionally, I just bull my way through. In one extreme instance, I had to chain the front of the tractor to a Michigan loader to keep from skidding the unit across the worksite with every bite. I should have passed on that job, but they were desperate, and paying VERY well... ....

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Mark
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2001-05-18          28349

Before you pay to much for a frame mount or chance hurting your tractor with out one, consider the Bush Hog brand back hoe.
Most people don't know that Bush Hog Hoes have sub frame mounts available. (My dealer didn't even know). The nice thing is it is simple and easer to attach and unhook than the quick attach loader, NH7308.
I wasn't sure what I was buying when I ordered it because BH didn't have any literature on it. But as it turns out the back hoe and sub frame go on and off as one piece with only 2 pins in the front. there is no lifting or hands on at all the whole thing loads it self using the hydraulics in less than one minute.
anyone using a 3pt. hoe could build one like this for less than $100.00 and eliminate the chance of damage to there tractor. Any one that would like a picture just give me an e-mail. I would be glad to help. ....

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J. B. Hopewell
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2001-05-23          28488

Well, I'm still doing my homework on this 3 pt. vs. frame mount backhoe subject. Mark, the info you supplied is invaluable. On the JD setup a "power beyond kit" has to be installed if you want to be able to operate the bucket along with the backhoe. Is there a PBK on your setup??

Also, I thought that about a week ago, someone posted that they sold Woods hoes but now I can't find that post. If that came through as a private post, would you please post again. I think the price was $3800 plus shipping.

We looked at the full frame mount on the JD and it is way beyond what we need. The entire 3 point assembly has to be removed from the tractor for the hoe to be installed. Mark's setup allows the 3 point hardware to remain on the tractor, so now I'm actively looking for a hoe that can be installed using Mark's sub-frame mount system.

Thanks again to all who are part of this discussion. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-24          28510

Mark, that is a very unique rig, and looks nice as well. Thanks for sending all of those pictures. I wonder if it is an unusual concept for a major part of the subframe to stay with the hoe? I would like to see a comparison of the various ways to support a backhoe. Might learn a little and it would be fun to see. ....

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Mark
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2001-05-26          28610

J.B.

I did have the power beyond kit installed, not only for the back hoe.

I have built a log splitter and use it for that as well. I also have plans to build a long boom arm to move trees and such. So pbo kits just makes my tractor more versatile.
....

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lsheaffer
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2001-05-27          28634

Kelly makes 2 backhoes for the JD955. The B600 can be mounted with either 3 point or frame mmountings. All Kelley 3 points use drawbar brackets with braces to the top link of the hoe to keep the hoe from lifting. When installed properly the 3 point can not move with the hoe installed. The B750 can only be installed on the JD955 woth the frame mount. Both frame mountings stay with the tractor. For more information contact me at sheaftractor@coiinc.com or 815-284-3226. 20% discount on Kelley products. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-27          28643

You said "When installed properly the 3 point can not move with the hoe installed."
Suppose that someone activates the 3pt with the hoe installed. What happens to the force? What takes up the stress?
BTW, did you take a look at that quick detatchable frame mount that Mark was talking about last week on this forum? He ordered it for his Bush Hog backhoe and from the pictures he sent, it looks real clever. The frame mount stays with the hoe and affixes to strong points on the tractor with pins. This way he ends up with the strength and rigidity of a frame mount, but when the backhoe is taken off then there isn't that big chunk of metal bolted to the tractor to interfere with the 3pt hitch. Perhaps Kelly has something similar. It is frustrating trying to get all the information together on hoes.
....

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lsheaffer
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2001-05-27          28645

When the 3 point is activated it can not move since it braced. It should cause the relief valve to open.You aren't supposed to try using the 3 point with it mounted. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-28          28662

I did in fact accidentally bump my 3ph into lift while my Kelley B600 was mounted. It took about a minute to wonder why the engine was throttled up and to realize I was hearing the open relief valve. With the top-links that are used as stabilizers, properly adjusted, the hoe doesn't move at all and the relief valve opens. I believe the force would pull the draw bar up, which would distribute the force among the lift arms, the rear of the cases and the forward drawbar mount. The mount can be convenient. By simply removing two top-links, the hoe can be lifted with the 3ph. 3ph hoes sit low and far back from the tractor compared to frame mounts. The hoe bucket usually drags when trailering the hoe or when going up steep hills. It's very easy to remove the stabilizers to lift the hoe. I don't know how this compares with other mounts.
An operator does have to take care not to bump the 3ph into lift. However, the way I have the hoe hydraulics plumbed, neither the 3ph nor the loader works when the hoe hydraulics are active. I bumped my 3ph into lift when I released the hoe hydraulics to use the loader.
....

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Rich Luhr
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2001-05-29          28722

I have to second what Roger Loving mentioned: it's very frustrating getting information on backhoes. Not only backhoes, but all types of 3-pt equipment. New Holland's website contains very little information about their implements. You can't even download an operator's manual from the website. Bush Hog's site is better -- you can download PDFs of the manuals, but it barely mentions the option of the frame-mount kit and provides no detail. As has been mentioned, Kelley's website has been down for weeks, which is really inexcusable -- it's not that hard to keep a website running! CT Farm's website has virtually no info on 3-pt equipment, etc. etc.

I get the general feeling that the companies involved regard the Internet as a fairly unimportant part of their sales process. This is a shame. The activity on this board alone demonstrates how Internet-savvy and reliant a lot of the customers are. I'd like to get more info on this backhoe kit and other options such as Mark described, but calling the dealer usually results in less new information than I can get online and driving around to read the brochures is not realistic given my dealers are 30-40 miles apart. The Internet is a great tool for sales and information distribution, but some industries haven't fully caught on to that yet, I guess. (Ask Carver Equipment, or Sweet Tractors about using the Internet for sales -- the dealers are catching on, but the manufacturers are still way behind.)

OK, that's my rant ... now on to the subject at hand:

Thanks to Mark for sending along the pictures of your set up. You've already told me more than any dealer ever did. I had a Ford 1310 with frame-mounted backhoe previously, and while the frame mount was the cat's meow, taking it off was a bit of a nuisance. The subtle improvements of your rig look like they'd make all the difference in the world.

I have a NH TC-18, but I checked the JD backhoe anyway. JD doesn't sell a hoe for their 4100 (the near-equivalent of the TC 18) because of concerns that it would crack the frame. But Kelley does. The Kelley dealer said, "I hope they keep saying that -- it allows us to sell a lot of hoes for 4100s!"

I personally have a bias toward the frame mount because I had one before, but the disadvantages had kept me from buying one. For one thing, my former rig required that the 3-pt hitch arms be removed -- a real time-waster. Mark's Bush Hog setup allows you to leave them on. I do wonder how much ground clearance is used up by the two frame mount pieces which are left on the tractor (near the mid-section). Is this a substantial loss of ground clearance? Otherwise, I see no reason not to go with his sort of deal -- the only question is whether other backhoes also offer such an option worth considering.
....

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jb85302
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2001-05-29          28724

Hello Rich, what you say about manufacturers, dealers, etc hits home. Why won't companies sell right to individuals(I understand the dealer thing but this is uncalled for). Like you said there are dealers that use the internet to their advantage then there are dealers that let us do the work. I want to buy a PTO pump for the backhoe I bought...Ive done all the research, called the distributer, have to give the dist the serial number so he can tell me the model I need etc. For all that I get to go to a dealer that has helped me not one bit, and pay him thru the nose for what I have done. If I was a dealer(I've thought about it) and someone comes to me with all the info etc. If all I had to do was make a phone call, I'd give the guy a good deal...then he would come back next time. I understand dealers don't like to hear this and there are some very good dealers represented on this board (One of which is Len Sheaffer I know others but some don't frequent this board). I believe dealers should get the stuff cheaper than if dists sold to individuals, I'm all for that but if I have to do the work of the dealer I ought to be able get a little of what the dealer would make. I believe in taking care of people who take care of me. Just my $.02....O.K. More like $20
Jeff ....

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Doug L
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2001-05-30          28781

J.B. I'll chime in here since I just purchased a Woods 7500 for my 855 about 2 months ago. I looked hard for over a year at Bush Hog, JD, and Woods before making the purchase. In my opinion the Woods is hands down the best. The Ganon bucket, hose routing, controls, quality of construction, etc. The unit has performed flawlessly, the only problem being trying to keep from pulling the tractor around while digging. I opted to use the rear auxilary hydraulics off the tractor which I installed using the JD kit. With this kit all other functions are still operable when using the hoe. The 955 has approx. 2gpm more flow than the 855 so your performance should be even better than mine. As far as the mounting I went with the frame mount after considering all the variables. Mounting and dismounting is 5 minutes or less. When making the decision about 3ph or frame mount consider the construction of the tractor itself. Most of the rear axle housing on the 55 series is aluminum, thus not quite as strong as cast iron. I did talk to many people about this subject one dealer in particular that did experience damage to a 955 with a 3ph mount hoe. That was a chance I didn't want to take. Last year I had to split my machine in two when the bush hog mower threw up a rock and ripped the corner off the front axle housing (aluminum). Believe me it's not a project you want to undertake, and it made my choice of a frame mount easier. Hope this info helps, it's just my $0.02. ....

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Mark
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2001-05-30          28805

Hi folks
I'm just catching back up on this subject and thought I would add a few more pennies to the pile.
I am very happy to have had something to finally contribute to this board, after all the help I have received from all of you.
First
Do all 3pt backhoes have about the same dimensions and shape at the rear where they attach to the tractor? and (I don't know this for sure) but, if they do wouldn't any brand 3PT hoe attach to another brand 3pt frame? I only have experience with the one I own so I could be way off but, my hoe appears not to have been modified but, only bolted to the subframe. So if anyone finding a 3PT hoe they really like could actually use a frame of another.
Second
In response to Rich, I yesterday had the same question as to how much ground clearance I had lost with the mid attachment points and decided to measure them and found they actually are 3 in. higher than my front axel. In some instances like driving over a stump or large rock they could hang up but I don't think they would be in the way if you could get the front axel over they would be OK for the most part.
....

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TomG
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2001-05-31          28807

Mark: That may be true about hoe mounts. I think my hoe bolts onto at least the lower link mounts and may well bolt onto a sub-frame as well. That's something I might think about. On other points: Generally 3ph implements can be put on any machine with the same category hitch. Often pins are replaceable and sleeves are available so implements can be adapted to different categories of hitch. The adoption of 3ph standards by most manufactures is a real advantage to owners because they aren't locked into proprietary implements from their tractor manufacturer. However, hitch standards do not include lift arm widths, and variations do exist. It is possible to find implements that are too wide for some tractors, even if they are the same category. Regarding ground clearance; what you say is true enough on level ground. Most cached hoe buckets are located a fair distance behind the rear wheels. It is very easy to drag the bucket or damage the hoe when starting up, or backing down, a hill. ....

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J. B. Hopewell
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2001-05-31          28831

Hello all! You know, when you look at the post index, this 3 pt vs. frame mnt sure has generated a lot of response. Thank you for invaluable information and being so willing to share experiences. We finally decided on a 3 pt hoe for the JD 955, reason... we finally looked at a #47 (comparable to the JD #7 hoe) that was attached to a tractor via full frame mount. We felt this setup went way beyond what we wanted to get into... very beefy. We preferred something small, less weight, easier to get in and out of very tight areas (will be using this mainly for landscaping). The dealer's main focus is on "weekend farmers and ranchers" which is the category we fall into. We decided on the Power King Mini 6000 (with "thumb"). Mark, closer to delivery, we will probably be taking a much closer look at your sub-frame mount system and will keep this board informed as to our progress. We will also continue to monitor the discussions here as the info provided by you all is better than any manufacturer site on the web. ....

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Mark
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Posts: 188 Virginia
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2001-06-03          28911

Whell, I have had so meny request for the pictures, I decided to build a web site so anyone wanting to have a look at a great set up can come on in. ....


Link:   Here you can see the pictures of the sub frame

 
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Mark G.
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2001-09-14          31798

Mark, I have just purchased a used bushhog backhoe for my tc29. I would like a picture of your subframe so I could get an idea how to build one. Thanks ....

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