Go BottomHST VS Standard Transmission
 | Zippy-Do-Da
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 36 Winnipeg, MB 
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2004-04-02 81911
What is better? Which has more Maintenance?
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL 
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2004-04-02 81923
We had a large debate about this a ways back. I would use the search and read through the old thread.
The answer is depends? What applications you are going to use the tractor for.
Concerning maintenance the hydro requires you to change the oil and filters like any transmission and requires more oil. The shuttle or standard will require a clutch over time. ....
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2004-04-02 81939
I think for working with the FEL, most would agree that the Hydrostat is more convenient. Your hands are free to wok the loader without changing gears. Very convenient for mowning also, don't wear the clutch controlling your speed around corners and obstacles. I'm sure opinions will very some. Try them both yourself. See what you are more comfortable with. ....
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| jschauml
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Ohio
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2004-04-02 81948
Zippy, if you are doing a lot of "close quarters" type stuff like mowing around trees or grading/tilling around the house, or even snowplowing I highly recommend HST. I was not too keen on buying a HST but after one summer and one winter with one, I would not own another standard transmission. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-03 81956
Zippy; It's mainly a mater of which you like the best and are the most comfortable with. Personally I like the 12/12 reversers for shuttle work and less power drain from the hydro it's self ,but that's only my opinion. As far as matinence, we've ran hydros on combines since the early 70's, and with proper fluid and filter service they just seem to run forever. Frank. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-03 81961
I think past discussion here is pretty clear that on average the total costs of owning an HST are lower than for gear tractors. Resale value is part of total owner costs.
However, averages aren't the whole story. Major failures on HST's are uncommon and usually the result of poor maintenance, but they are very expensive. A HST owner should be able to underwrite the risk of HST failure for a tractor that's out of warranty. A typical HST owner may be able to expect a trouble-free HST throughout their ownership, but a gear TX owner can count on clutch replacement around 1,500 hours depending on the tractor and use. Various 'clutchless' TX's might be an alternative but I have no idea about their maintenance costs.
Gears do have their advantages but they are realized more in larger farm tractors doing field work. HST's are better for the work done by typical CUT's. The lower efficiencies of HST's are not usually much of an issue for CUT work. ....
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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY 
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2004-04-03 81965
TomG, what is the cost of an HST failure? If I have a major HST failure on my JD4310 am I talking $500, $1000, $2500, or even $5000 dollars? Could it be that high? Knowing what the cost could be would help me decide whether to extend my warranty. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-03 81971
Maybe somebody can put prices to parts and labour. I have to be impressionistic since I'm a gear head myself. The impressionistic answer would be in the thousands and possibly quite a few. Clutches aren't cheap either.
Extended warranties are sort of like insurance. You don't expect to need them but they are intended to protect against catastrophic losses. Generally extended warranties are intended to make money for the corporation, and usually they do. How much extended warranties actually cover depends on maintenance stats that I don't know. It's been said here that most HST failures can be traced to poor maintenance or use and that's something an owner can protect against. Good oils changes and filters as speced and recognizing that a HST can be over-heated are pretty good as insurance.
If the remaining failures tend to occur early due to manufacturing defects during the life of a standard warranty or late after the period of an extended warranty then the extended warranty isn't of value but it does cost. It's a risk but if the loss isn't catastrophic, use of the tractor is optional and household finances won't collapse then most people would have more money left if they underwrite their own risks. A person also should provide a maintenance budget for the tractor and then failures won't seem so bad.
I know these aren't very satisfying comments but there's really no cut and dried solution. Only an individual knows what they are comfortable with, but individuals can educate themselves about the risks they accept. Maybe we help with the education around here. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-04-03 81972
I have been on this board for 3 years, and with the exception of a Deere recall on poorly manufactured transmissions, no one I can recall has ever reported a HST failure.
The only clutch failures I can recall have been on 20+ year old machines and newer chinese tractors. ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2004-04-03 81973
Seems like we just had a discussion about a 2nd hand Kobota trans going to lunch. Costs were discussed.
The debate will go on forever.
Personally I prefer the clutches. But then again in 40+ years of operating I have never had a clutch failure. But if I did I am very confident in my ability to repair. I would not have a clue where to start looking for a HST failure. Nor am I inclined to have to buy the additional test equipment.
I have replaced many clutches as prevenative maintenance. So that may why I've never had a failure.
Looking at the JD 4400 shop manual the clutch packs in the CUTs are fairly straight forward an not a big deal. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-04-03 81985
I agree with Harvey for me personally, and I just bought a 4110gear.
There is no doubt that hydro is sweet and they are apparently reliable as hell. But then again that is when they work. It's just like auto/manual in cars. Autos are nice and they go forever, but when they die...they are problems and $$. A manual gearbox if driven properly will practically run "forever" and all you will need is a new clutch every few hundred thousand miles.
I recently started a new job at a golf course as mechanic and almost everything there is hydro. And I think almost every machine needed adjustment to keep it from creeping when the pedal was let go. Very annoying.
Also if you get up at 3am to move snow during a blizzard and the tractor just won't move...you may not be able to do anything about it without bringing it to the shop. But when I put mine in gear and let the clutch out...I know it will move. And when I need a new clutch (MAYBE 15-20 years from now) I can fix it in a weekend for a few hundred bucks.
Then again, jumping on and pushing a F-R pedal is a lot easier than stoping-clutching-shifting-declutch-go, plus you can feather it a lot easier into piles and such. So...you decide! lol
....
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 | grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine 
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2004-04-03 81989
I think a good question is why was it implemented in the first place? Would you buy a stick on a new riding mower?
Wouldn't swap it, it is sweet! ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-03 81990
The comparison between automatic trannies in cars and trucks and hydros in tractors a bit misleading. Hydro transmissions are much simpler and far more reliable. They're basically a hydraulic motor and there's not a heck of a lot to go wrong there as long as the fluid is kept clean and topped off.
Clutches have adjustment issues as well. If clutch gets out of adjustment where there's a preload on the throwout bearing or where the disk doesn't fully disengage and watch how long it will last. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-04-03 81991
I understand hazard rates, the bathtub curve (initial high failure rate due to manufacturing defect followed by low failure rate in mid life and then high failure rate at end-of-life). I agree that extended warranties are always a gamble set to benefit the manufacturer on an average or long run basis. I have generally purchased extended warranties for american cars and usually have been rewarded.
Extended warranties can just give you peace of mind. You buy them now if you have the money in exchange for not having to worry about not having money when the unexpected failure occurs. But what I am hearing here is that there is a low probability of HST failure, especially in my case since I am using the tractor for private use only. I probably wouldn't go for it - but would reserve judgement pending price information. Also it depends on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist. I think I weigh a little toward the pessimistic end of the spectrum. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-03 81992
Bought a humidifier at Sears a couple years ago for 99.99 or sometning in that range, and the clerk was almost insulted that I would'nt buy the 29.99 extended warranty to cover me 2 yrs beyond the regular warrany. An insurance agent in our town used to have a sign in his window that read "The only thing we won't insure is the here after." ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-04 82066
Uhm, the vicinity of 1,500 hours for a clutch (Art's number) at a rate of 100-hours per year of a typical CUT owner is around 20 years. My 20-year-old tractor has about 700 hours and I figure the clutch may outlast me. I'd replace it and the pilot bearing on principal if it were around 1,500 hours.
There have been clutch and pilot bearing failures discussed here but on tractors around the age of mine. There aren't too many 20-year-old gear tractors discussed here. I can't recall a HST failure discussed except for a few solenoid problems but I forget on which tractors. Art has mentioned a few in general and then mostly due to poor maintenance.
What will need work sooner than the clutch on mine is the shift rails and detent ball. That's from the loader work done by myself and a previous owner who I don't think was a particularly gentle or patient operator. A planned maintenance budget is a good thing.
I like my gears fine but constantly shifting when doing loader work isn't too agreeable and I have a synchromesh TX. When working with a pto implement sometimes the best ground speed is between gears, and I have 12 forward and 4 reverses. There are some other benefits of HST such as more usable traction on the ground and braking. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-04-04 82083
The only HST failures I have seen are when an un-informed owner tows one in gear. This will blow out a HST pretty quickly. It sems the gear tractors are for the "pureists" of tractor operators. Gears meshing gears, transmitting torque from the crank to the differential with only the clutch in between. The hydrostat is a different animal, creating torque at the differential through fluid power. It is time proven technology that with proper care, will give a lifetime of good service.
For long heavy haul in the fields, gear would be the best. For the convenience of most CUT applications, the HST is is a good solution.
Let the debate rage. ....
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| harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2004-04-04 82108
I put almost 3000 hours on my little 2nd hand Ford and only adjusted it twice. It had close to 4000 hours on it when it went down the road.
My 2.5 year old JD4400 has 700 or so hours on it now. clutch linkage adjusters came loose first 100 or so hours and all had to be reajusted. Took some reading and some fiddling to be comfortable with result.
I learned about clutches the hard way. My dad would wail my knee with a stick (or verbal) anytime the foot got near the pedal unless I was fully depressing to stop or change gears. Never set idling with clutch pushed in gear.
It was a well learned lesson and I am glad to have learned it young. I operate heavy equipment much the same way.
I see waaaaaay too many clutch slippers today. HST is a good thing for some. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-04 82134
I think Harvey is right that clutches, especially in old tractors, can last almost indefinitely depending on use. I don't expect mine to go 4,000 hours though. It's probably several decades too new for those expectations.
I'm so sensitive to this clutch feathering thing that I can barely drive the township 1/2-ton with manual. It's sort of ironic since I was a late-50's hot-rodder who took great pride in spitting gears quick as a wink. Back then automatics were for kids who had to drive their dad's cars. Now I can barely get a 1/2-ton manual rolling. What's important changes, but having the attitude that a clutch is either in or out sure is going to make it last longer in a tractor and I'll take an auto in a 1/2-ton any day.
My used tractor was the right one at the right time for me and still is. If I were doing it over new from scratch I'd be more inclined toward HST. I think HST's are a better match for the work I do and I got over worrying about the extra power losses in HST's. ....
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 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2004-04-05 82194
Maybe too the question should be "which is the best for the operator?" If you aren't like some of the gear heads here who were practically born with a clutch under their foot and you don't frequently use one in your car or truck, then you may not be very happy with a clutch and shuttle shift transmission.
Dave ....
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| johnfundy
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 71 NE Ohio
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2004-04-05 82220
My 2 cents,
I had both......In my opinion, for mowing,tiling and some blade work hydro is the way to go. I sold my Bolens Garden Tractor (hydro) for a kubota compact (gear) and while I moved up in tractor capabilities and performance, I dearly miss the hydo tranny of the Bolens, especially when mowing. My next tractor will absolutely be a hydro, even if I have to sacrafice other features to ba able to afford it.
John Fundy
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 | jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2004-04-05 82270
I think the best way to go is an HST with a 3 speed range box. Need Power? Go to Range #1 and the hydro has a ton power. Need road speed? Go to Range 3. Need all around ground speed and power Range 2 where it is at and that is where my HST spends 80% of its time hooked up to Range #2. Some tractors only have 2 ranges...high and low. ....
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| CowlitzTractor
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Washington
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2004-04-08 82493
I'm going to have to agree with Hardwood. I really like the shuttles too. Manual transmission reliablity, extreme control on extremely steep conditions, Lack of power loss, Coming from a car racing back ground I look for every way to keep my power( or get more), but not give up my creature comforts in the process. And yes, eventually all will require a clutch,,, but how soon that eventually happens is entirely up to the operator& manufacturer,like the Caroni's that have a 6 " clutch!!!!!!??RETARDED. How easy the replacement is ,,, that's up to how prepared you are and having the right tools before you ever get started. ....
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| Zippy-Do-Da
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 36 Winnipeg, MB
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2004-04-08 82502
I guess my original question was pretty vague. Do I go with a B7800 because it has HST, or the L3400 because it is a larger framed tractor. I want a larger tractor due to the fact that every time I look at the B7800 it looks smaller and smaller. I have 40 acres and a 250ft driveway. I know I will kick myself in a year if I find my tractor is too small. The L3400 has a standard transmission which I don't have a problem with, I realize it is a bit more to work with, but that is the only option it comes with.(can't spend any more on a tractor) ....
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| arnoldbanner
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4 Maine
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2004-04-22 83989
Just got my first tractor, a B7510HST, with rake and FEL. I'm a little surprised at how noisy the transmission becomes under load in 2 or 4 wheel, high or low range, when I'm moving under load (uphill or rough terrain). Fluid level is full up, and the machine is new (2 hours). Is transmission whine typical? ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-22 83991
I can't tell you if the whine you hear is normal or not, but HSTs do have a tendency to whine and it's fairly common. ....
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 | grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-22 84013
I am soo used to my standard tranny, I cant imagine life without it. I am constantly working on steep grades & god forbid I accidently hit the wrong pedal or didnt stop soon enough. Standard is total control. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-22 84014
Total Control? Try going .00001 mph with your gear tranny :) ....
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| grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-23 84025
.oooo1? No, I dont use low range. hardley ever. I move very quickley everwhere i go only because I know the machine so well. The only time i use low range is when i am in an extremely tight area where my tires are mm's away from houses or cars...etc. ....
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| grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-23 84026
Ken - on pic 1 of your pics, What is that attachment called were you loader bucket usually is & How much did it cost? ....
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| kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2004-04-23 84039
My first tractor was a Kubota B-7200DT and I felt it had a poor design especially after e-mailing Ronnie at Tractorsmart. The input shaft went from the rear end through the clutch and pressure plate and flywheel and layed in a little brass bearing in the end of the crank. The bearing wore out and when I tore it down the end of the crank was ruined. I priced a new crank and it was $856 plus I needed a new clutch because with the end of the crank ruined it allowed the input shaft to wobble around wearing a larger hole in the clutch. It was going to cost me around $1,200 to fix it by doing the work myself. I sent an e-mail to Tractorsmart and they told me I could have a machine shop press a bearing in the flywheel (which is how the larger machines were made anyway) and leave the crank alone. I did as he instructed and only had to replace the clutch disc and a few other pieces on the rear of the input shaft. It worked like a charm. My only point is that with gear on small compacts other things can go wrong besides the clutch wearing out.
Before I bought the 7800 I vowed never to go hydro, and after test driving hydro and having one now, there is no way I would go back to gear. I save about 30 to 60 minutes on mowing with the hydro. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-23 84053
That's a BoDozer grapple made by Borgford manufacturing. Probably the most used implement I have since I've had lots of slash to clean up. Here's a link. ....
Link: BoDozer grapple
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| grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-23 84054
Thanks for the link Ken! ....
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