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BARNEE
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Posts: 64 South Texas
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2003-11-29          69954

Hi all. Today i got to put some seat time in on my new L3000DT. Man, did i have fun. Spent most of the time in the pasture cleaning up downed trees and brush. This machine works great & makes doing these jobs a LOT easier. Even though the tractor worked fine I noticed the temperature guage never got higher than the 'C' mark during operation. When I shut the engine off & turn the key on, the temp indicator goes to just slightly above the 'C' mark. When the tractor is started it returns to the 'C' mark. Does anyone know if this is normal for these tractors or do i have a cooling system problem?? During the day i even took it down the road to about 5 miles to get some fuel. Never left the 'C' mark.

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TomG
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2003-11-30          69966

Assuming it's a conventional cooling it's not normal and the problem solving it usually is sorting out if it's the gauge, wiring, sensor or the thermostat--or rarely something else. It should be figured out because running diesels below operating temperature doesn't do them any good. I'd check if the upper rad hose gets fairly warm after some operation. That's a pretty good indication the thermostat is opening and the problem likely is the wiring, sensor or qauge. Coolant temperature can be measured directly through the rad cap, which should be removed before warming up the tractor. Coolant circulation also can be seen through the cap, which tells you the water pump is working.

A test for the sensor on some systems is simply removing the sensor wire and touching it to ground. If the gauge is working it should read full-scale and that tells you the gauge is working. It'd be a good idea to contact your dealer to see if that's acceptable test for your tractor. There are resistance checks that can be run on the sensor but procedures should come from a manual.
....

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Art White
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2003-11-30          69971

I haven't got enough seat time to tell you where it should be running. Gauges normally do not have one place they should run as they seem to run in different places depending on the sending units used and the gauge. It is wise to watch your gauges and know where they normally read. Unless you were brushogging or doing something more consistant then loader work it very well was where it might normally run under those conditions. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-30          70005

Some do read pretty low when they aren't being worked too hard but I don't think that a gauge that doesn't come off the peg even when sitting idling should be considered normal. Low temperatures as well as high ones are signs of malfunction. You can't tell a low temperature condition easily if the gauge doesn't come into the operating rage under normal conditions. There'd be no good way to tell that the thermostat stuck open and the engine is running cool or that that the coolant wasn't circulating--could be frozen or almost empty and the engine is actually over-heating. A bad water pump or broken fan belt may also result in a gauge going to cold on some engines.

My wife blew a head gasket on her car recently due to running a hot engine. There was a large leak in a rad hose. The temp went to hot and she should have stopped but the temp went back down so she kept going. The coolant got so low that the pump wasn't getting coolant to the sensor. ....

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Murf
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2003-12-01          70034

There could be several causes for this low reading.

Assuming there is enough water in the system for the sensor to read properly.

Often the sensor goes bad and is replaced by an out of spec. unit, usually because of cost or availablity. If the new sensor has a different resistance it will cause a lower or higher reading.

If your unit does show a variance in the reading but it is not accurate this may be the case. Some temperature guages have an adjustment screw on the back, this is so that variances in manufacturing, wiring, etc., can be accomodated. If you have a thermometer you know is accurate you can use this screw to 'trim' the guage so that it reads more accurately.

Best of luck. ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-01          70065

I talked to the dealer today & he basically mentioned all that has been posted. Guess my next step will be to ensure the cooling system is working. Then it will either be a sensor problem or that the thermostat is stuck open. Either way i won't be able to do anything til this weekend. Thanx for the help. I'll let you know what i find out.. ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-06          70443

I've looked things over in more detail, but am no closer to an answer. Here's what i've found so far:

-the cooling system is full
-a thermometer stuck in the top of the radiator gets to 135-140 deg. at fast idle & the temp guage reads on the 'C' mark. When i'm using the tractor the guage stays on the 'C' mark.
-the upper hose to the radiator is a lot warmer than the bottom (as is the upper part of the radiator) which to me indicates theres no or little flow thru the radiator
-the fan sucks air through the radiator rather than blowing on the radiator.

I talked to the dealer again & he's gonna check into it further to see if he can find out what it's supposed to run at. He thinks it has a 175 deg F thermostat in it.

Anyone out there with a L2600 or L3000 that could let me know how your temperature indication behaves? ....

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Peters
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2003-12-06          70445

Barnee;
The systems normally pump into the top of the rad and take the cold water out of the bottom. Thus if the rad is a little low then the water can still circulate by gravity.
From the description it would indicate that the thermostat is opening prematurely or staying open therefore the system is not heating up properly.
Peters ....

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TomG
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2003-12-07          70457

Thermometer readings through the rad fill aren't the same as right at the sensor but that reading sounds low even given some inaccuracy. That's quite a bit below most normal operating temperatures and a normally working gauge may well not come off the peg but somebody who knows the tractor might know.

I'm with Peters, it sounds like a bad thermostat. My Ford behaved exactly the same way, although heavy work on a hot day would warm it up. I replaced the thermostat and now the temp comes into the operating range at idle. It also smokes less when doing light work and that's good for the engine. An oil change might be good.

In my case I think the problem may have been that somebody installed the gasket on the wrong side of the thermostat rather than the thermostat itself but thermostats aren't expensive enough to worry about much. If the thermostat is opening you probably can see the water circulating through the cap (remove it when the engine is cold). If it's closed the top hose won't get warm because there's little circulation through it. There is a small bypass on many systems but it doesn't go through the rad. ....

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plugger
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2003-12-11          70883

Well whats the verdict? I have a MX5000 with the temp. gauge doing the same no matter how hard you work it I have 38 hrs. on it Been that way since new Should I get it checked out? ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-11          70884

plugger, still no verdict. Dealer was to do some investigating & get back to me by tomorrow. He thinks it's normal. We did determine the temp guage is working & he says there's no trim adjust on it so it either works or not. He's to run a similar unit at his dealership to see if it reacts the same. I worked the tracter for a couple of hrs. today & the temp guage still isn't off the 'C' mark except maybe a little. The engine is burning clean & there's no indication it's too hot. Our daytime temp has been around 60 or so. Maybe that's part of it. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-11          70891

Barnee every gauge has it's own caracteristics and unless youwere out bush hogging with a consistant load you might not have it warm up much. There are many ways to check the temperatures easily including the simple and econolical temperature checker at any NAPA or parts store for under
$10.00. You may also have some fun with the new laser unit for around $70.00! Just idling or small work the temp shouldn't go up to much. ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-12          70971

talked to the dealer today & he says a similar unit he's got on the lot does the same so i guess it's 'normal'. I still don't understand why the temp doesn't come up to the operating range much like a car would if you started it & let it idle (like in cold weather). I mentioned that the temp guages must not be too accurate & he felt they were pretty accurate.

Art, i may pursue your suggestion on the temperature measurement tools. I had forgot about the crayons & wasn't aware the laser devices were out there. The auto stores around here want >$100 for one, but i found them on good old ebay for 40-60 so I may do that since it's more accurate & versatile than the crayons. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-12          70972

You could always cover part of the radiator like they do on big rigs to make it run hotter. I don't know if it makes any sense to do this, and certainly wouldn't recommend it without having some temperature measurement tools, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Of course if you measure the temperature and find it to be normal then it's not an engine temperature issue but instead a gauge issue. That would be irritating. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-13          71033

Ken, when recommending to cover a radiator I tell people to have it covered so there is a hole in the center and to be equal on the outer ends of the radiator. Other wise you pull unevely and cause the blades undo flex which may cause premature failure. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-13          71065

That makes good sense Art. Covering the radiator makes no sense at all if the thermostat is working and the engine temperature rises to a reasonable number. I certainly wouldn't do it just to make the gauge read warmer. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-14          71107

Seems like the question of whether the coolant is coming up to operating temp isn't answered and needs to be and well maybe the question of what is normal operating temp is another question. Inexpensive thermostats aren't very sensitive and the don't open gradually so they wonder around a lot. Normal operating temp at low work loads for a 175-degree thermostat may be lower than 175 but in my mind not a whole bunch lower. If a gauge/sensor doesn't come off the peg until almost 175, it seems a little silly to call the gauge accurate. It reads the same between -20F (if it gets that cold) and say 160.

Maybe a good question for the dealer is what the lowest engine temp is where prolonged operation doesn't contaminate the oil or damage the engine and whether the gauge reads somewhere in its range at that temp. I wouldn't accept one that still sat on its peg as normal no matter how many new machines did it. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-14          71123

Tom is right on. If everything is working properly and the dealer says it's "normal" I'd escalate to the dealership owner and see if he can contact Kubota about a fix. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-14          71132

I'd still like to see where the gauge might be reading on a summer day mowing. I don't like to see diesel engines running cold because of the complications it can cause. Many tractors have ennough reserve that they still have trouble bumping the thermostat open when not run hard enough. Even a meat thermometer will work with long enough probe to get to the antifreeze and they can be had for 10. I wouldn't use your wifes and then just return it. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-14          71135

Is it even possible for one of these engines to run below 170 degrees F with a working 170 degree thermostat? I find that kind of hard to believe. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-14          71138

If the thermostate is sticking in the open position this can cause the engine to run cool. Not a good thing for a diesel. I am getting a set of winter season lexan slats for my Dodge Cummins because it has such a hard time warming up in cold weather. If you let it set and idle for very long the temp. drops like a rock. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-14          71140

That's what I'm saying - if the thermostat is working the temp shouldn't drop. Why should a diesel be any different than a gas engine in this regard? Maybe I'm missing something. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-14          71141

Even with a properly operating thermostat in most diesels, if you let them idle they cannot maintain temperature. That is why you see the winter fronts on many of them and in very cold climates folks remove the fan altogether. In this case; it sounds to me like the tractor temp. indicating system is not indicating properly. It could be a bad gauge or a temp. sending unit. My 4410 will drop down in temp significantly if I let is set and idle. Once I get back to work on it, the temp jumps back up again. This is normal for a diesel. They should not however read a low temp all the time. Real bad for the oil and engine. ....

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Peters
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2003-12-14          71143

It seems like mechanics 101 to me.
Thermostats are always having problems, what do you expect from a thermotropic fluid. How many bad clutch fans have you replaced? I have had my share.
Back to the problem. It does not seem that long ago that every shop had a kettle to boil water and check that a thermostat was working properly.
Procedure:
1) Remove thermostat
2) place in pan
3) Add thermometer (do not rest on bottom)
4) heat thermostat until it opens
5) record temperature
6) allow to cool until thermostat closes (record temperature)

7) repeat heating, cooling and recording

Compare to specifications and determine if thermostat need to hit the round filing cabinet. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-14          71150

Ken many engines don't run up to temp when idleing for the thermostat to work. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-14          71155

Art, that is exactly my point. Why? My gut instinct tells me that there is no way the engine can dissipate the heat of combustion in a diesel even at idle without the thermostat opening. Maybe my instinct is wrong. Is diesel combustion that much cooler than that of a gasoline engine? Do they pump the coolant backwards or something? I know how diesels work but I don't have much experience using them, especially in cold weather.
....

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Art White
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2003-12-14          71167

I think we missed Ken, They often have so much cooling in reserve that they don't have to open the thermostat. This happens especially this time of year unless realy working the engine. Many gauges have different chacteristics as to how the needle works, and where it lays as to what is it's normal especially without the degree's on the scale. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-15          71194

I think most valves have difficulty metering very low flows and thermostats aren't very sophisticated valves. I'm not sure any valve produces flows that meter continuously from zero to full flow. Most crack, which produces an initial increment of flow and they can't meter less than that initial flow. They probably are designed to 'crack' at temps a bit lower than their rated temp. I can imagine conditions where this increment would be too great to allow temp to come up to the thermostat's rated temp. I think most systems have a small bypass that doesn't flow through the rad as well.

One difference between diesel and gas engines is that diesels don't have a throttle valve. At low loads on gas engines the throttle valve closes, which rarefies the air and produces high intake manifold vacuums. The air is less dense and it takes less to warm it on cold days than in diesel engines. Anyway, that's the explanation I've heard for why diesels don't warm up at slow idles on cold days. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-15          71223

Thanks, Tom, that makes some sense. I suppose if the thermostat closed 100% it could cause other problems. Not sure I buy the rarified air theory, but it's worth pondering. I'll have to do more research one of these days. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-16          71291

Ken: Anything you turn up would be interesting. The throttle valve idea is something I've run across several times, although not in books. The discussions were among people who I believe knew what they were talking about. I believe it's true that diesels won't come up to operating temp at slow idles and they'll even cool down below operating temp given prolonged slow idles. I don't know if the same is true for turbo-charged engines.

The idea seems right in so far as the volume of air moving through an engine that had a closed throttle plate would have lower density and therefore lower thermal mass than one with an open manifold (at the same displacement and rpm). That much seems true, and diesels do have low intake manifold vacuums at low loads. Whether this is the effect that causes diesels to need some rpm to warm up on cold days isn't as evident. Interesting to think about though. ....

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BigAlinNS
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2003-12-16          71311

Don't know if this means anything to you. I have had an L3710 for over a year now and the temp gauge never goes more than a 1/4 of an inch off the peg. I use it in the Summer +30 celcius and in the winter -20 celsius. The needle is always at the same point. I'm quite particular with my equipment and have contacted the dealer a couple of times about this. They insist it is perfectly normal. Hope this helps. I'm very interested in where this discussion goes, just in case we do have reason to be concerned. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-16          71335

BigAl, I don't know about the 1/4" off peg thing but I would expect an engine with a properly designed and maintained cooling system to be able to maintain a constant working temperature winter or summer. As long as your engine gets up to a good working temperature the situation you describe sounds ideal to me. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-17          71432

I think I'll make an assumption here and say that the temps probably are OK but point at maybe a design issue. I have to assume that the gauge would correctly indicate over-heating problems at the high end. It sounds like the combination of the gauge and sensor just has too much deflection. If it's designed to accurately indicate over-heating it then barely comes off the peg at the low end of the normal temp range. If that's the case the gauge is not very useful for detecting conditions like a thermostat stuck open.

If the problem was simply a centering issue it could be fixed by a trim resistor in the circuit, or a change in the ballast voltage might do it. At least I think most systems use a ballast voltage around 9V so gauges aren't affected by changing voltage from the alternator/regulator. Don't know but I think I'm guilty of intellectualizing this issue. Getting practical, I'd just measure the temp to make sure the engine isn't running too cold and then depend on smoke to tell me if the thermostat has a problem. ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-24          72131

I finally got to run some tests to see if i could understand what's going on with my cooling system. The highest i could get the temperature at the inlet to the thermostat at a fast idle (2000 rpm) was about 168 deg. & that was with blocking off part of the radiator. The thermostat didn't seem to be open as the temp on the outlet side only reached 125. The outside air temp was mid-60's. Other temperatures on the engine varied from 130's to 160's depending on location. The temp guage got no higher than about 1/16" above the 'C' mark & reached that when the temp was around 120's. It sounds to me like the temp guage/sender isn't accurate or is malfunctioning since it didn't seem to respond to the temp increase above 120's. As far as the rest of it, I guess between the outside air temp & the minimal work the engine was doing, it wasn't enough to get the temp to the thermostat setting. I did also see that at lower rpm the engine would start to cool as others have described so evidently it's normal in that regard. So far my use of the tractor has been light work so the temp probably hasn't gotten any higher than what i saw today. That being the case, the tractor never reaches the thermostat temp ('operating' temp). To me, this isn't right that the tractor doesn't reach it's operating temp or do i have this all wrong?? What about you guys that plow snow? Do your machines reach their operating temp in those conditions or do you know?? ....

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Chief
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2003-12-24          72132

Sounds to me like you have an incorrect or malfunctioning thermostat BARNEE. It more than likely should be reading around 180 - 190. Should be an easy fix to replace it with a new one of the correct part#. ....

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Peters
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2003-12-24          72139

Not sure if it is the sender unit or the gauge but one of them is out. It is likely the sender unit. You should be reading it if the temp is over 100 F.
Peters. ....

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GaleHawkins
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2003-12-25          72155

All the things mentioned above are possible. Typically most engines will run 1/3 to 2/3 of range of the gauge with mid point being common for many engines.

The problem with new equipment you have no real way of knowing what is the problem because all the parts are untested basically. I agree with the thermostat as being a good candidate. With only a few hours I would have the dealer check it out. If you are checking the external radiator temperture try to find a similar tractor that runs hotter and see is the reading are the same or different is one thought. ....

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BARNEE
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2003-12-25          72167

Right now, i'm leaning towards the sending unit/guage because the thermostat isn't supposed to open til 175 deg & i didn't get the temp up that high. I'm going to do some more testing to see if i get similar results & to see if i can get the temp up higher. It's supposed to be in the mid-70's tomorrow & the next day so that'll help.

Merry Christmas to everyone. ....

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Peters
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2003-12-25          72168

The exterior readings should and were much lower than the exterior values. You could still have the thermostat opening prematurely allowing the water to circulate before it is to temp.
The gauge is on the block and you did get it warm enough that it should have given you normal operating temperatures on the gauge. ....

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