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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-05-24          55473

Hi all, my b8200 will not run after it sets for an hour or so. I can bleed the lines repeatedly and get it to start. Runs great after that. If I shut it down and try a restart after a couple minutes, no problem. If I let it set for a while ( maybe an hour or more ) it will sputter and stall with lots of greyish smoke. Seems like bleeding the lines ( a couple times ) will get it to run but I can't figure how air could be getting into the lines, especially because it runs great once it gets there. My thinking is if air is getting into the lines somehow, wouldn't it also get in the lines while it's running and run poorly always ?

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-05-24          55495

Must be bad deisel. You think you're bleeding the air out, but you're really bleeding out the fly eggs, leaves, water, rust, and duck doo doo that got into the deisel you bought at Agway that sat in their tanks since 1987. ....

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-05-25          55513

From the description I guess the lines have to be bled first thing in the morning too. I'm not sure if the lines bled are the fuel or the injector lines but I imagine it's the fuel lines. When air is in my system, I can usually see bubbles coming out of the filter bowl bled screws or hear air coming out the pump bled port.

Without trying to distract you from your explanation, I wonder if another explanation might be that it's a cold starting problem. You might check the pre-heating system, the battery charge and terminal condition. Diesels start hard if the starter isn't spinning the engine fast enough. One possibility is that the cranking associated with bleeding the lines is getting the engine warmer. If one cylinder is a bit weak, it may not heat up to ignition temperature for a few cycles and would put out gray exhaust.

I'd probably also change the fuel as Morgan suggests and the fuel filter and check any in-tank screen on general principal. I'm also curious if you turn off the fuel shut-off valve when the tractor is sitting. If it's a gravity fed system, it's a little hard for me to understand how air would get into lines while gravity pressure should be present up to the pump. My understanding is sometimes at question though.
....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-05-25          55536

Hi again, I flushed out the tank and filled with new fuel but still have the same problem. The engine spins fast with a fresh charge on the battery and I've got the glow plugs good and hot. It is a gravity fed system and I haven't been shutting off the fuel switch at night. I start bleeding at the injector pump and finsh with the lines. I blew the fuel filter out with air so it should flow fine. I should add the the long block is a fresh rebuild. New injectors, pump, etc. Tom, your suggestion of a cold start problem sounds right on time. Now that I think about it, when it finally does run it's only after I've been spinning the engine for awhile and bleeding the lines. I'm going to go spin it a while and let you all know what I find. Maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree ! ....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-05-25          55549

seems it's a cold start problem after all. TomG, you hit it right on the head. I spun the engine for about 15 seconds or so
five times with the decompresion knob pulled. Then hit the glow plugs for about 45 seconds. Next crank she fired up.I can't figure why it's so hard to start. Fresh fuel, glow plugs are new, as are the injectors, pump, pretty much everything. Once warmed up, she sparks up very quickly. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-05-25          55557

I had an Kubota L245TP that was the same way. The dealer salesman and mechanic had a terrible time getting the engine started and told me that "they all start that way". A simple read of the owner's manual after I ordered it and it arrived showed proper the use of glow plugs when starting the engine. It was amazing how easy the engine started when I followed the steps in the owner's manual. You would think they would start easier than that and glow plugs would not be needed all the time. Anyway, glad you got the problem figured out. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-05-26          55563

Hope I haven't just thrown another wrong tree into the mix. I'm not sure either notion is sufficiently confirmed. Some tests that support or detract from one of the other idea would be good. With all this cranking, changing engine oil after it's over might be good. Fuel the injectors put out end up in the oil if it isn't burnt.

Since it's a new rebuild I'd check the valve clearances. I never have been certain if clearances become larger or smaller when an engine warms, but close tolerances when it's cold can lose compression. I'd also confirm that battery voltage is getting to the glow plugs when the switch is on.

In diesels, glow plugs heat pre-combustion chambers to near ignition temperature. Then the heat from a few compression strokes raises the temperature enough for ignition. However, spinning the engine with the decompression open doesn't heat the engine. It might be good to check the decompression linkage to ensure it completely closes. I haven't seen the linkage but I'd guess there should be a bit of play in it when it's closed.

I'm not sure that decompression should be required for starts this time of year. A dealer tech might know. If decompression shouldn't be required, the use of it may mask the real problem. A typical use of decompression for cold starts is to open it, spin the engine for a few seconds and then close it. The starter spins faster with low compression and the extra inertia of the engine gives a few strong compression strokes when decompression is off.

Another typical cold start technique is to open the hand throttle 1/2 way or so. Higher throttle positions keep the governor supplying high fuel delivery a bit longer as rpm increases when the engine catches. It's sort of a diesel choke.
....

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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Murf
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2003-05-26          55583

MJW, you have a bad (brand new) injector in there. What is happenening is that when you shut down the engine, the defective injector is not holding pressure and allowing the fuel in the line to drain down into the cylinder. The smoke is all that raw fuel burning off when you first start it. The machine will run (almost) normally under these condiditons since there is such a small amount of fuel that can get into the cyclinder between power strokes. The leakage must be slow because it will not lose it's prime for a few hours, however in a perefect world it should hold pressure for ever. It's unlikely you were sold 'new' injectors, they are probably rebuilt ones, and mistakes do happen.

The solution is simple, pull out all the injectors and take them to a diesel injection specialist (or the place you got them from) and have them checked.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-05-27          55694

Sounds like it was in the shop and had a bunch of work done. I'm wondering how many hours are on it since the work and if always started hard since the work. I'm also curious the reasons why the work was done originally and how many total hours are on the engine. I might as well keep wondering here. I'm curious if there is any exhaust smoke while is engine running normally.

Murf's leak-down idea is a pretty good one. It's a definite candidate since most other problems would affect the engine's operation or would produce fairly immediate hard starting after shutdown. If there's are a fair number of hours on the engine since the problem started the engine oil level might have increased a bit and then leak-down is almost certainly the problem.

The trouble is that there are a bunch of candidates for hard starting and the description is consistent with leak-down but it also is fairly consistent with marginal compression, especially if there's some exhaust smoke during operation. Well, poor timing makes smoke and hard starting too. This trouble-shooting buz goes on and on, but to solve it possible candidates have to be eliminated one at a time and eventually the problem will be found. In terms of likelihood and ease of checking, the injectors seem a pretty good bet.
....

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-05-27          55708

First thing, did they use Kubota gaskets or aftermarket for the head gasket? Did they set the valve protrusions when doing the valves? That is the most common problems we find when people call us with these type problems. Murfs idea of a poor injector still might be on the mark. ....

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-05-27          55729

The engine is a rebuild as the old one had a main bearing failure so I opted for a rebuilt engine. It was blowing a lot of blue smoke so I figured the rings were probably gone too. Not sure what type gaskets were used but I'll find out. Engine has less than one hour on it since the rebuild. Once I finally got it started, I pulled it out of the garage and ran it arund the driveway a bit and the power seemed good. It does blow a faint bit of blue smoke but I'm guessing it will until the rings and everything get broken in. I've still got the injectors from the old engine. Since the old engine never seemed to have fuel problems I'll put those in and see how she starts after that. Injector leak down sounds like it could be it, I hadn't thought of that considering they are "rebuilt". I also verified the decomp lever isn't staying partially on so that isn't it. Checked the oil and it could be my imagination but it does appear a bit thin so possible there is fuel in it. I'll let you all know what happens when I swap out the injectors. Not sure about the valve protrusions either. I hope it's just an injector. I dread the thought of having to pull that engine again. splitting that tractor was no fun. Thanks! ....

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Kubota B8200 hard starting

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-06-02          56273

Well, I went and made things worse. I swapped out the injectors
for the old ones that it ran fine on. That didn't fix the problem so I started thinking it must be the injector timing. So, I set it slightly advanced, slightly retarted etc with no improvement. Bad thing is now it starts a bit easier runs badly all the time. Black smoke and knocking like no tomorrow. I've got the timing set back to the original location but it still runs badly. Now for the wierd part. I had it running and it was smoking and knocking and barely running so I hit the engine kill knob and suddenly it smoothed out and didn't sound half bad. I can't figure that. I'm about to send up the white flag and beg my local dealer to look at it. Any ideas ? ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-06-02          56349

Kinda acting like the injection pump may be the culprit. Have you had it checked? ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-03          56426

Black smoke is too much fuel or too little air where as while smoke is unburned fuel. Over-heating produces black smoke, which is the same thing as too little air.

Many kill switches cut the fuel supply. If you're getting excess injection, the kill switch might reduce fuel delivery enough to make it run better rather than killing it. I don't know how the governor might have been mixed and matched in the rebuilding but the governor and linkage might be a good thing to check. It also would be good to check the pump control arm for free movement. There is an adjustment on my Ford that says 'Smoke control, do not adjust.' I think that's a factory calibration and I don't know how the engine would run if it were changed.
....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-06-03          56454

Hi all, the new injector pump is a rebuilt unit and I still had the old injector pump so I plugged that back in but no luck there either. I was pouring over my now very well - worn service manual last night was found something about setting the smoke control. There are a few adjustable controls which are fast and slow idle along with the
smoke control. Pump control arm seems okay for free movement but I'm going to tear into it again and check the governor and linkage. Maybe something not quite right in there is giving me this erratic behavior. That and I'll see about the smoke control tonight. Maybe just too much fuel and the smoke control
allows more air to even out the mixture? The manual doesn't describe it's function, just the adjustments. Think we're getting closer.... ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-05          56665


Maybe light at the end, and good thing too since this is starting to be nightmarish. Hope it gets resolved soon.

I would keep in mind that you are getting into areas where diesel shops usually do the work. They have the equipment to verify whether specific components are working or need adjustment. They'd probably theorize about the problem much as was done here but then they'd test one thing at a time to verify that it's right, replace it or set it to factory spec. They'd almost certainly find the problem before they ran out of explanations and the process would be fairly orderly. Ordinary owners without a bunch of equipment can't do that and usually resort to trial and error where there's no guarantee of finding the problem. It can be a nightmare and I've had a few.

I hope trial and error works here. I'm throwing out this idea from thinking about smoke control adjustments. I think that an assumption in making such an adjustment is that everything in the engine works and is to spec, which seems to be a pretty strong assumption here. It would be a bugger to end up using the smoke control to compensate for rather than cure the problem. It also would be a bugger if the explanation was that the engine rebuilder had left a rag in the intake manifold or something and it just got sucked further in to cause more of an obstruction. That stretch of an idea would explain why everything went bad after swapping the injectors. Of course, an axiom in science and police work is that coincidence exists, it just never happens. Despite my comments, things are sounding better.

....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-06-05          56668

If you run it with the fuel shut off partially out it runs better? Then maybe it is getting to much fuel, could be that the gears between the pump and the cam are out of sync. You are getting closer. Some of the older pumps were very easy to adjust for the amount of fuel delivered to the engine. This would be something to look at but there also might be something that came up missing in the translatition in the book to us. I think the problem is there looking at you it's just not quite ready to surface. ....

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Chief
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2003-06-05          56696

On some of the older Kubota pumps, don't they have a 5 position adjustment for smoke control/altitude compensation? Is that what you guys are referring to? ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-06-06          56752

The smoke control adjustment is a bit mysterious in my Ford manual. The factory doesn't seem to want ordinary techs fiddling, so they say little about it. I've always thought of it as a fine-tune adjustment for fuel metering.

The adjustment seems to be part of the governor rather than the pump. The governors for some pumps are combined with the pump housing, so an adjustment could be located on the pump.

The comment did trigger a thought. I've been assuming the pump to be a jerk-pump type. Some older tractors had other type systems such as common-rail and accumulator types. The thinking about this problem might change a lot if it had an older type system, especially an accumulator type.
....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-06-09          57181

Morning all, the smoke adjustment is a screw on the front cover that is run in for less and out for more "smoke". From what i can tell, it appears to limit how far forward the injector pump shaft can move forward for more fuel. I ran it in and less smoke, but
that's not the problem. So, spent the weekend starting from scratch and resetting everything back to close to specs as possible. Set injector timing correctly, reset all valve clearences and pulled the injectors to see them all spray. Fired it up and suddenly seemed to run just fine. A little black smoke but not too bad. Then I ran it around a bit and realized no power. Started smoking black heavily and couldn't even get up a slight incline in the driveway. Ran it around a bit hoping it just wasn't up to operating temp yet. When suddenly it overheated. It doesn't have a temp guage but it was obviously way too hot. Got that way fast too. Also noticed before it got hot that there is a good bit of smoke coming out of the crankcase breather tube and faint blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. I wonder if I might have a stuck ring causing low compression which really shows up under even a slight load as unable to burn all the fuel. By now I think the rings should have seated / broken in. Other thing I'm thinking is somehow it's somehow getting too much fuel and it's not showing up until a bit of load is put on it and the governor tries to send more fuel maginfing the problem. I recall reading something in the archives about over fueling and overheating being related somehow. There is no adjustment that I can see on the fuel pump itself. I don't see any coolant in the oil or oil in coolant so I don't think I blew the head gasket. Also, no bubbles in the coolant while running.
I called my local Kubota dealer but he said it would be a few weeks before he could even take in any more work. We've had a lot of rain here in VA lately and everything is growing like mad. He said everyone is rushing around during the occasional dry day and are breaking up their equipment. Given that long a time frame I figure I'll fight with it a bit longer and hopefully figure it out. If I have a stuck ring will additives like marvel mystery oil or the red line additive Mark H put a link up for help or is that just very wishful thinking ?
Thanks ! ....

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WillieH
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2003-06-09          57195

mjw -

Running along the lines that Art mentioned, about the pump being out of syncronization potentailly causing excessive fuel...If this were the case, and I'm thinking out loud here, the pump may be spinning too fast for the amount of fuel that the mechanicals are calling for. With this in mind, potentially, the pump gears will cavitate within the chamber, causing what you described as small air bubbles down stream. I don't believe, at this point, that you are dealing with just one problem but rather a couple that will have a tendency to compound each other.

Murf's suggestion of a bad(new) injector is very probable also. The black smoke that you get upon start up would be indicative of raw fuel leakage.

Willie H. ....

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mjw
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Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-06-09          57204

The pump on this engine runs directly off the cam. I don't see any way of adjusting it. The fuel cam runs both the fuel pump and injector pump. I set the pump timing to just begin to show fuel in the nozzle seat on the injector pump for #1. Soon as it gets a tiny bit wet I checked and the 1-FI mark lined up with the mark on the trans housing. Small adjustments can be made to the injector pump timing by adding or removing shims under the injector pump. I believe I've got it on time. I've got the right gasket between the fuel pump and the block and the manual
doesn't say anything about adjusting the fuel pump itself although I'm guessing that since it runs straight off the camshaft it's not adjustable in any way, only the injection timing. Hmmm. I haven't really focused on the fuel pump much as the source of the problem but what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I wonder if the pump on the rebuild engine is wrong... I've got the old pump laying around, I'll compare the two. Yes, I agree that I think I've got a few different problems compounding each other and making diagnosis tough. Thanks everyone for helping me with this. I sure hope I get it licked soon, it looks like I'm growing hay out front ! ....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-07-17          59727

Hi all, just wanted to say THANKS and let you all know how it turned out. Basically, I tore everything back down and found among other things a blown head gasket. Replaced it and learned apparently at one time was a type of replacement gasket ( not kubota ) that were known to blow out on these particular engines. Of course, I blew my own up, not the fault of the gasket in this case. I just found it interesting. Art, I guess you already know about that from one of your questions to me. So, got a kubota head gasket, had the pump and injectors checked / set by a diesel shop recommended by a Kubota dealer in a nearby town( as the mechanic said " first thing I'm going to do is send them up there anyhow ), reset ALL my timing points, valve lash setting, fresh diesel, filters and presto ! She works great.
I found that I focused on the fuel pump timing so much I somehow managed to miss my valve timing was off in my last teardown. I'm sure it was because I tore into it and made so many changes it, among other problems just got compounded. I'm guessing the valve - fuel timing being out caused the overheat and blew the head gasket.
So, thanks again for everyone who offered advice, you all pointed me in the right direction. I'd still be out there sweating and swearing over that thing otherwise... my neighbors I'm sure would thank you too... be saplings replacing my grass otherwise. It was getting ugly out there. ....

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mjw
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31 Winchester, VA
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2003-07-17          59728

Hi all, just wanted to say THANKS and let you all know how it turned out. Basically, I tore everything back down and found among other things a blown head gasket. Replaced it and learned apparently at one time was a type of replacement gasket ( not kubota ) that were known to blow out on these particular engines. Of course, I blew my own up, not the fault of the gasket in this case. I just found it interesting. Art, I guess you already know about that from one of your questions to me. So, got a kubota head gasket, had the pump and injectors checked / set by a diesel shop recommended by a Kubota dealer in a nearby town( as the mechanic said " first thing I'm going to do is send them up there anyhow ), reset ALL my timing points, valve lash setting, fresh diesel, filters and presto ! She works great.
I found that I focused on the fuel pump timing so much I somehow managed to miss my valve timing was off in my last teardown. I'm sure it was because I tore into it and made so many changes it, among other problems just got compounded. I'm guessing the valve - fuel timing being out caused the overheat and blew the head gasket.
So, thanks again for everyone who offered advice, you all pointed me in the right direction. I'd still be out there sweating and swearing over that thing otherwise... my neighbors I'm sure would thank you too... be saplings replacing my grass otherwise. It was getting ugly out there. ....

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Murf
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2003-07-18          59746

Why shucks mister, twernt nuthin' ....


Glad we could be of help in some fashion, sometimes after looking at the forest for a while you cant see the trees (growing where your lawn used to be).

ROFLMAO...

Best of luck. ....

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