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 | Sheehan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Maryland 
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2003-05-21 55248
I have a B6200 that has never had a problem. While using the finish mower, I went through heavy grass and the engine stalled. Now I can't get the engine to crank at all. Any suggestions?
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2003-05-21 55252
I hope it wasn't blowing black exhaust before it stalled. that would be a sign of over-heating. If the engine won't turnover now, it could be seized. I surely hope there's a less serious explanation. Ran out of fuel maybe?
About the only other connection I can make between cutting high grass, stalling and then not turning over is something caught and disconnected a safety interlock. That idea might be a stretch but I would check over the starting system and battery.
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| sheehan
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2003-05-21 55254
Tom, No black smoke. The engine won't even crank. When I turn the key backwards to 'preheat' the engine and oil lights won't even glow. ....
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2003-05-21 55257
If you don't have any dash lights coming on, it's an electrical problem. You might check all the fuses and check for loose wires. Heck, even check the battery and terminals.
If you do have some of the dash lights coming on, with key on, then it's most likely a safety interlock issue. Wiggle and giggle them. Sometimes we forget to do one little thing that'll keep it from starting. Like PTO off, clutch in, in neutral and so on. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-05-22 55316
I'm assuming there are no dash lights when the switch is in run either. Like Billy said 'No dash lights means electrical.' Some tractors like my Ford use fusable links, which are sort of a main breaker for the fused circuits. They look sort of like a fat section of wire and can be hard to find. I looked for mine a bit just to see it but never found it. It's probably inside a wiring harness. Other tractors may have a normal fuse but there probably is one or the other.
Such a thing would be the usual candidate when there appears to be no power anywhere, although it's hard to connect heavy mowing with blowing a main fuse. Even a really dead battery usually will produce some dash lights. The starter switch would be another candidate. Sorting this out without a wiring diagram may be a little difficult.
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| Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2003-05-22 55318
I don't see why an electical problem would cause the tractor to stall, when you figure these are deisel engines and deisel engines don't need a spark. It would explain why it won't start, and why the lights aren't coming on, but not why it stalled in the first place. You can take a running deisel engine and pull every wire out of it, and it will still keep running.
Stalling in heavy grass...no black smoke...now the electical system is dead...I think it had a heart attack. Better call 911. ....
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 | WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England 
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2003-05-22 55327
sheehan-
The Doctor is on the scene! Step back please!
Situation of circumstance. The heavy grass cutting and the stalling of the engine...really does not offer any reason for the electrical to malfunction, being the fact that it was a mechanical shut down.
The lack of ability to crank, providing as Tom mentioned, the engine did not seize on you, may have been merely a fusible link blowing out.
The B5200, B6200, B7200 oranges, are very simplistic in their electrical design. Trace out from the battery compartment the positive (+) line towards the engine / dash area. You will find a couple different fuses inline, as well as a fusible link. If these check out OK, your problem lies within the ignition switch itself in the dash.
The ignition switch on these units, unlike todays models, feature a reverse glow heat position. You may have noticed that the key chamber of the switch was getting a little loose feeling, or wobbly, despite a tight fit into the tumblers. This would be a tell tale sign that the spring loads of the switch were breaking down due to use and many "heatings". Keep in mind that on one side of the switch, you have the glow circuit which carries considerable current for heating the glow plugs, and, the other side of the switch, carries even more current to the starter for ignition. This high current draw is what causes the heat to form on the components of the switch in particular.
As time passes with each use, the components will essentially be re-heat treated and get burned and brittle. The spring loads in the switch, will be the first to their demise as these are the weakest link, beyond the fuses.
I recently had to replace one of my B5200 ignition switches - Backed into the garage in the fall, went to start the next day...absolutely nothing.
I played around with the switch after checking fuses, and the orange started, though somewhat reluctantly. I believe that the sudden mechanical stop through your PTO, had nothing to do with your inability to get started again - that is your tractor's.
My money...place it on your switch!
Have a great holiday weekend guys...be back next week!
Willie H.
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-05-22 55338
Following Dr. Willie's logic (I think he did his residency in tractology), if you had a major melt-down in the ignition switch there might be nothing left to hold the fuel solenoid open, hence the engine shutdown. ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-05-22 55339
Yeah, after reading Morgan's post, I got to thinking (very dangerous). It sounds like Sheehan is a victim of circumstance. I don't think the stalling had anything to do with grass. Whatever is going on here, happened when he was mowing and shut the engine down.
It could very well be as Dr Willie stated or it could be something as simple as a battery cable coming off (not likely but). ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-22 55343
I think Dr. Willie was on the right track for sure, but he omitted one other possibility. If there was a lot of corrosion on the battery it is possible that the heavy load produced enough vibration, etc., to finally open the connection totally, thus causing a completely open circuit and no voltage at all in the system. The ignition switch is a possiblity, but not from 'meltdown', the fuseable links would go long before the switch, that's why their function. The real possibility is that, especially if the unit lives outside, the insides of the key switch are rusty, making them a poor connection in the circuit. CAREFULLY bypassing the switch momentarily will tell you if that is a problem
The easiest diagnostic is to turn the switch to the run posistion and follow down the positive side of the circuit from the battery on with a simple 12V. tester, the kind with the light inside, when you lose power the problem is right there.
As for the stall itself, as Mark mentioned, although a diesel does not require electricity, per se, there is an electric solenoid that controls the fuel to the engine, that is how you can shut off the engine with the key, doing so electircally stops fuel from getting to the motor.
Although it is NOT recommended to do so, in an emergency, such as to get a unit to a location where it can be worked on, a temporary jumper wire from the positive side of the battery to the fuel solenoid, and booster cables to the starter will get the unit running.
Best of luck. ....
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| WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England
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2003-05-22 55348
Still wandering around out here...
Sorry if I misled you in a direction of a "meltdown" within the switch cavity itself.
What I was getting at was, over time, each time the switch is called upon, high current passes through it. Eventually, the switch springloads and contacts become brittle and burnt surfaced, and ultimately break off internally. In this case, as I suspect with "sheehan", the fuses would not necessarily blow before the switch crapped, as the switch was slowly becoming electrically worn, to the point that the switch literally broke internally, causing yes, an electrical failure, but a mechanical breakdown.
As in any chain, it is only as strong as the weakest link...In this case, due to time, I believe the weakest link
was/is the breakdown of the switch, maintaining the fuses intact.
We'll see what sheehan reports on as far as the fuses test.
Then go from there. If we need the paddles, they're just down the hall in ICU!
WillieH. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-22 55351
You mean the booster cable doncha' Doc ? ....
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| sheehan
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-05-22 55359
Just a quick point...the ignition lights glow brightly when I turn key to the right. When I turn the key to the left for the glow plug, the ignition lights barely glow at all. The mower deck in heavy grass is definitely what caused the stall, because it had happened several times the day before, yet restarted fine. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-22 55360
By 'ignition lights' do you mean the lights in the instrument cluster, oil pressure, etc. ?
If so I am even more convivnced that the problem is to do with the connection to, or the cables from, the battery.
It could also be that the battery is just plain dead.
Either way, a GOOD set of booster cables to a LARGE, fully charged battery will tell you quickly.
Best of luck.
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2003-05-22 55361
I am with Murf on this one. Also isn't there an electric fuel shut off solenoid ? It it looses power the engine will shut off. Not sure on that particular model it is a general thing though.
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| Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2003-05-22 55362
I was wrong about deisel engines running without wires on Kubotas. The electricity powers the fuel pump right? I was figuring it was a mechanical fuel pump. So yeah, if the battery dies, the pump dies, and the tractor dies.
The dim lights on the glow plug display shows a dead battery (or bad connections) because glow plugs draw a lot of juice and that dims the lights. ....
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| Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2003-05-22 55363
So, it stalled because of the thick grass, and then you found out the battery was failing. Get a new battery and/or terminals. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-22 55368
Morgan, it is not a fuel pump, the pump is purely mechanical off the camshaft, that is why the fuel tank is always at or above the height of the engine, no delivery pump is required, just gravity.
The shutoff system is an electric solenoid that moves a valve which in turn dumps the fuel back to the tank instead of allowing it to be compressed and go through the injectors into the cylinder where it can cause detonation, without fuel the engine stops almost instantly.
You are on the right track about the glow plugs though, they are a load since they are just very tiny heating elements, however they do not draw enough current to cause the lights to dim with a good battery and at anything much above freezing. The dimmed lights do however indicate that either the battery is VERY weak, or that the cables or terminals are not allowing enouh current through, such as when severe corrosion is present.
If the terminals & cables are good, the other possibilty is that the alternator is defective and not recharging the battery, therefore the battery is being run down since the machine is consuming battery capacity but not replacing it. After the machine has been allowed to sit the battery naturally recovers enough to restart it after a while, and that the 'no start' situation is nothing to do with load, it is just a coincidence that it won't restart after it stalls. That's why I suggested a strong battery that is known to be good, and a big pair of booster cables, if it starts then you have narrowed down the problem.
Best of luck. ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-05-22 55373
Ah ha, now we know we have some juice. It was hard to tell from your previous posts. This narrows things down quite a bit.
Do the simple things first. Check your battery cables and terminals, check your safety interlocks and then try jumping it off with a good battery. ....
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| Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2003-05-22 55385
Murf, I have a B6200 myself and I'm not convinced that the fuel cutoff is a solenoid. Mine fuel cutoff is a cable that pulls on a lever and I think the fuel cutoff is purely mechanical.
So, if the fuel pump is mechanical and the fuel shutoff valve is mechanical, and the engine is a deisel, it won't stop when the battery dies because it does not rely on anything electrical to run. It's a deisel!!!
My Kubota runs fine when you shut off the ignition. I bet it would keep running even if you took out the battery and all the wiring. I bet you could start the engine and remove it from the tractor and it would still be running, so long as it got fuel, just like cutting the heart out of a turtle (In biology class when I was a kid, the teacher took a live turtle and cut it open and cut its heart out and set the heart on the table and it was still beating!!!!!!!! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-05-23 55400
Sure sounds like a shot battery or seriously corroded cables now. I'll bet if the voltage is read at the battery it'll read near 12V but drop to zilch when the glow plugs are hit. A really shot battery without a load can still read 12V as long as no cell is internally shorted.
I'd clean the cables and especially the chassis end of the ground cable and repeat the voltage test. Cleaning probably won't cure the problem but it should be done anyway. Then, I'd put the battery on a slow charge for a day and take hydrometer readings on the cells (assuming that it's not a gel battery). One or more cells probably won't come up to the good range, which is a sure sign the battery should be replaced.
I'm always looking for connections. If the heavy mowing also involved a lot of bouncing around that could sure push a marginal battery over the edge.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-23 55408
Morgan, my apologies, I didn't realize that the B's were that 'rustic', most 'modern' diesels have 'key off' systems, mostly for safety & security reasons.
Until recently construction companies had real problems with kids on work sites after hours, they would start a piece of equipment up, put it in gear then jump off, run away and watch it putter off into the sunset unatteneded!!!
The fun and games ended quickly when a child's clothes got caught in the tracks and he got pulled under the machine since there was nobody at the controls to stop it. Luckily he survived, but he was very seriously injured.
However, my point about the battery is still valid, if the machine stalled under (because of) load, and the battery or cables/terminals are bad it still won't start, fuel or not. There is no way the glow plugs should be enough drain on a properly charged battery of sufficient capacity.
Best of luck. ....
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| sheehan
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-05-23 55433
Thanks to all for your advice. I'll implement you're suggestions this evening. Anyone want to mow 11 acres? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-05-23 55434
No problem, that's only an hours cutting time for one of my bigger units ... of course you're about 14 hours driving time away and that could be a problem..... LOL
Best of luck. ....
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| sheehan
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2003-05-27 55733
And the answer is....Bad electrical cable to starter solonoid. When I put jumper cable directly to solonoid, it started like a champ. Thank to everyone for their suggestions. I was so glad, I cut the lawn twice. ....
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