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Block Heater Do I Need One

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Tom from NJ
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2002-09-15          42411

Newbie here to tractors and diesel engines. When do you need a block heater? I live in New Jersey, our winters vary from mild, a few snow storms, to getting dumped on. We will get periods of cold weather, below 0 for sometimes for a week or so, but most times temperature are above 0. I plan on using the tractor for snow removal and will have it parked in my shed, no heat, and on my driveway when I expect a big storm. I know heating the engine is better for a diesel as far as wear of the parts go, so do I need one? I think Kubota has one for about $100-$150.

Thanks

Tom


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-16          42456

I believe that block heaters keep the cylinder walls warm and the head to a lesser extent, which helps starting in very cold weather.

A block heater came with my used Ford so it's a little hard for me to say if I need one because I always use it when it's cold. I can say that it gets colder here than in N.J. but fortunately it seldom snows much when it's very cold so I seldom have to start the tractor in say -30F or colder.

I only use the heater when it's around zero F or less. Above that it starts fine. After several hours on the heater, it might start better in -10F than it does in the summer. More than several hours on a heater probably doesn’t do much.

I suppose a heater is a good idea, and they do reduce wear I believe. Winter engine and TX oil, anti-gel fuel additive, and keeping the battery charged also help. Opening the hand throttle 1/2 - 3/4 also helps starting. A diesel has to spin fast to start and low batteries and thick oils slow the starter down.
....

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Art White
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2002-09-16          42460

Tom, alot has to do with age of a diesel engine when it comes to cold weather starting. We are in central NY and less than a third of our new tractors go out with a block heater. The newer tractors all seem to start better than the old ones but there are still differences. I would say it is an option, but a battery charger set up on trickle will keep your battery fresh and you will not need one at all.
....

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Tom from NJ
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2002-09-16          42505

Art,

The tractor is a Kubota BX 2200 with 70 hours on it, new 3/02. Sounds like I will not need a heater, thanks for the info.

Tom ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-16          42506

If you should get a stretch of real bad weather down the road sometime, a magnetic heater on the oil pan all night can suffice to add just enough heat to the engine to help it start. I used them for years along with synthetic oils in Anchorage. My brother still lives there and that is about all he uses on his Kubota for starting in cold weather. Art is right on point with the trickle charger too. I have seen temps cold enough to reduce even a good battery to 40 percent power, and I have had batteries freeze if I didn't keep them charged, warm or both. An old Fairbanks trick is to just take the battery in the house with you at night and re-install it in the morning. But it's gotta be -45 or lower before you need to resort to stuff like that. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-16          42514

Mark didn't they sell heated battery blankets in Alaska? ....

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Billy
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2002-09-16          42515

If I were you, I'd ask some tractor owners in your area.

Billy ....

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TomG
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2002-09-17          42524

My Ford is mid-80's, which is more or less modern design, although the pre-heat takes a bit longer than many newer tractors.

Winter or summer, I want to hit the starter and have the engine catch almost immediately, the oil light to go off reasonably fast and for the louder knocking at start up to disappear quickly. I think that's easiest on the engine and having a bit of 'starting insurance' is easier on me too. Using a block heater around zero or less does that for me. The engine knocks louder and longer if I don't use the bock heater around zero. I don't know if would be worth $150 (hope that's installed) to me though.

I do have a battery blanket for when it's really cold and my trickle charger is 1-amp, which I figure could be left on indefinitely, although I only use it for 24-hours or so at a time.
....

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DRankin
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2002-09-17          42532

Battery blanket? Yes I have used them but they are pretty wimpy. I suppose combined with a trickle charger and a good block heater there is a place for them. By itself it does not do much at really cold temps. I came out one morning at a measured -37 F and stuck my fingers between the battery blanket and the battery and found it cold to the touch. It had been plugged in all night. It was not as cold as the outside air, maybe 20 or 30 degrees warmer. I have also tried using the electric heating pads from the drug store with about the same results. I once wrapped a heating pad (set on high) around the exit pipe on a motor home potty tank. I wrapped all that in a wool blanket and left it plugged in all night at -15 F. It did not even thaw the ice plug in the pipe.
If it is 0 degrees you might keep your battery up around freezing with a blanket. The usefulness decreases in really cold temps.
At -60 just leave the car running all night.
At -70 some rubber compounds in cheaper tires will freeze and shatter like a piece of fine china.
....

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Art White
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2002-09-17          42533

Mark, I've got several customers with heated floors in there garage as well as houses and I think it's the only way to go. But in Alaska I think I'd do a little radiant heat on the ceiling in the garage just as a booster for the heated floors. ....

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Pete S.
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2002-09-17          42534

I put a block heater in my ford 1920. Cost was $22.00 and installation took about an hour with radiator fluid replacement. To me it's worth it's weight in gold. Plug it in and you are good to go. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-17          42536

Thank God I live in a place now where I worry more about staying cool! ....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-17          42540

-60 deg. F? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's cold enough to stick the dog to the yard.

We've had temps as low as -20 F here in Indiana, on only a few occasions in my 40+ years.......I still can't fathom that -60 stuff.

anywhooooo......
'bout half the compacts we sell have block heaters. They are not a necesity. The ones without will still start. But the ones that have them start a little easier, and I believe it's easier on the engine. For the small amount they cost.....it's well worth it I believe.

The biggest cold weather problem we have is fuel gelling. No matter how much I warn these first time deisel eng owners, a few still get caught with thier pants down, and have fuel in the tank from October, with no anti-gel additive. This usually only happens once per tractor.
oh well......yoou can lead a horse to water................ ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2002-09-17          42541

We cheat, but just a little. We use battery blankets, except we don't put them on the batteries...we bungee cord them to the bottom of the fuel tanks.

Kind of like a hot cup of coffee for your tractor, well OK not quite, but you can see where I'm going here.

It works great, and when combined with cold weather shrouds, even in a nasty weather the tank stays warm to the touch all night.

Best of luck. ....

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175L
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2002-09-17          42543

Hi,

Don't worry about a block heater just use synthetic oil and put som anti-jell in the fuel and you will be fine.Regular mineral oil thickens in cold and slows your cranking speed.
I have a 175L in Orange county NY and use it with a blade in the winter here and it's fine. If your battery is on it's way out the cold will make that worse.

....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-17          42544

That's a good idea murph, I'm headed to the shop to turn the guys on to it.

Several times each winter, we get service calls on tractors already gelled and a long ways from the shed. It takes alot of time to load 'em up and haul 'em in here. That would be just the ticket.....

Fire up the generator on the service truck, wrap the blanket around the tank and fuel lines and components...and plug it in....

The cup of coffee you mentioned could be partaken waiting inside the warm cab of the service truck for a few minutes..

Once things are warmed up a bit, add some anti gell, start the engine and let it circulate through the fuel return to the tank...and then back home..

This would save time(money for the cust)..and time for us..... also save the cust. trans. costs to our shop.

Why didn't we think of that???????????

Hats off to ya Murph!!! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-18          42558

My first reaction to Murf's idea was 'Hey a new use for my magnetic heaters.' But then, I thought that the heaters probably put too much heat in too small an area to use on a fuel tank. They might degrade the engine oil if used on the oil pan. It's probably best to keep my two magnetic heaters for the sump when it's really cold (we've hit -40F here but I've never had to start the tractor then). I think my multi-grade hyd/TX oil does much more than the heaters. I'm probably just looking for a use for the heaters since I use them only a couple of times a winter. I believe that mercury thermometers are useless at –60 because the mercury freezes. That happens, and not all that much further north than here which quite a bit south of Fairbanks.

I think it's best to think of anti-gel additives as preventives rather than cures (but I take it seriously and use them before the first frost). Some summer blend #2 can cloud around freezing, and it sometimes is a little difficult to know if a pump has summer, winter or a mix of blends.

As I understand, the fuel doesn't actually have to turn into something like Jell-O to create problems. Small wax crystals form when the fuel clouds and they clog the fuel filter. I've never seen Jell-O fuel so I don't know if it actually happens. On the other hand, I get the anti-gel stuff in early and also start buying #1-diesel before winter. I heard mixed opinions on whether warmed gelled fuel ungels or not. I’d just as soon not have to find out. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2002-09-18          42562

After many years of trying to get machines started at customer's sites doing commercial snow removal we have just about down to a science.

If you want to use the magnetic heaters TomG spoke of they work OK to, as long as you're right there to keep an eye on the temp.'s the tank reaches.

Also particularly handy are the 'extension cord' like heating cables designed for keeping pipes from freezing, wrap them around, or zip tie them to, anything you like. The big advantage to these items is that they are temperature activated, that is, as the temperature drops the resistance of the cable increases and so they make more heat, above about 35 deg. they are an open circuit, making no heat at all. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2002-09-18          42565

Tom, the last time I saw some specs on the magnetic heaters, seems like they were limited to 350 degrees. I really doubt they could cook the oil in an oil pan, especially on a cold night. But if you doubt try an experiment. When you wife isn't looking clamp one to the bottom of an iron skillet and see if it will boil water or fry an egg. I'll bet it won't do either. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2002-09-18          42579

The magnetic heaters we have are only a 200 watt element, and I don't recall seeing any bigger than that. I would suspect that with the thermal losses you would have from trying to heat anything with a 200 watt heater in cold weather you wouldn't have much of a possibilty of over-heating anything.

The strangest 'block heater' I ever saw was at a golf course we working on, the maintenance shop was heated with a wood stove, called a Sedore Stove, look them up they're really neat, anyway back to the story. This particular stove can be equipped with a water jacket, which this one had. The strange part was since the shop wasn't heated full-time during the winter, only when the maintenance man was there working, he decided to fill the water system, a closed loop cicuit using an old water heater for storage and a couple of old radiators from the salvage yard to spread the heat to different rooms of the building, all this was controlled by manual valves and an electric pump wired through light switch. Since the tractor used for snow removal was kept in the same building, the old fella came up with the idea of putting 'Tee' fittings and valves on the hoses running to & from the cab heater, then put valves and lines back to the wood stove heated water circuit. When there was a snow storm coming he would hook up the lines and start a fire, his logic was even if the electricity failed the natural convection current would keep the engine, and more important to him, his cab warm indefinitely. He claimed a modest fire would keep the engine at nearly running temp.

Interesting thought process indeed !!

Actually TomG, after that big ice storm you guys had maybe you should think of doing this too.... LOL ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-09-19          42621

Haven't heard of a Sedore stove. Maybe I’ll have better luck looking it up than a reference to a Soyer stove I read. It was supposed to have been invented by a Chef and used during the Crimean war. Now I have two stoves I don't know anything about. Rats--life is difficult.

The big ice storm (the one the drove up the price of maple syrup) was mostly to the east of here. That was my last year in the city. I'm happy it missed here and just as happy I missed the whole thing too. Due to all the stories, I do have a generator and transfer switch though.

The thought I had about heating engine oil is wondering what temperature in a localized area might start affecting polymers, additives etc. in multi-grade oils. Oil degradation is something I've heard about in connection with dipstick heaters but I don't know if the issue is relevant. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-19          42630

I don't think I would trust a dipstick heater. Sticking a bare heating element in a bucket of oil has never seemed right for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the one Tom mentioned. Magnetic heaters are at least separated for actual contact with the oil and will use the engine block or the oil pan to radiate heat into the engine fluids. ....

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Stan
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2002-09-19          42639

Murf -

Interesting info on the way the heat tape works - never knew that.

All of the above ideas seem better than the way we had to get the truck started at the cabin a few years back - get some charcoal going and push the grill under the oil pan. Only thought of it because I'd heard alot of oldtimers talk about having done it. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-19          42640

Charcoal works good. Don't forget to lay an old sleeping bag or a blanket over the hood to trap the heat in the engine compartment. ....

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Stan
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2002-09-19          42655

Yup - we tucked her in all nice and comfy. It helped. ....

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